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Posted: 9/7/2017 3:18:42 PM EDT
There is a great article from Snipers Hide on the Ruger Integrally Suppressed Rifle.  They tested 308, 6.5CM, 6CM, and the 5.56.  And even had some subsonic ammo for 308/5.56.

Even more interesting is the side-by-side numbers from the B&K and Larson.

FYI - Snipers Hide is no longer associated with Scout and has reverted to like 2014 with respect to PMs and stuff.  Glad its back to the way it used to be.

Here is the article:
https://www.snipershide.com/integrally-suppressed-ruger-precision/
Link Posted: 9/7/2017 4:42:36 PM EDT
[#1]
I saw that post last week, there is quite a bit of difference between the two meters. The B&K is definatley more accurate.
Link Posted: 9/7/2017 10:31:58 PM EDT
[#2]
That post is way off. First they don't say what weighting they are using which if different on both machines makes a big difference. The numbers they are getting are not even close to accurate for the calibers. If you want to read a great article read this one from Dr Phil Dater about the LXT1.
http://www.larsondavis.com/ContentStore/mktg/LD_Docs/Firearm_Sound_Briefing.pdf
Link Posted: 9/7/2017 11:46:33 PM EDT
[#3]
Link Posted: 9/7/2017 11:57:57 PM EDT
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
A weight peak hold. Those numbers are good for the 2209. I've tested it with B&K reps side by side with a Pulse system and numbers were exactly the same shot for shot.

There is a Mil Spec for the meters themselves. The B&K 2209 meets the Spec that other meter used and many of the meters you see people posting numbers with don't meet the spec.

I'm no sound engineer but I know the Milspec calls for a 20ms rise time. All the current digital meters are 30ms except for the Pulse system. The Milspec calls for a certain sample rate also
and the current digital meters are less than half except for the Pulse. Thats probably why the Pulse is 50k and the other meters are 5k. The 2209 isn't made anymore so they are hard to find but they work well.
View Quote
Mil-Std 1474D calls for a sampling rate of at least 160 kHz
Mil-Std 1474E calls for a sampling rate of at least 192 kHz

There are technical papers that say 200 kHz sampling is really the minimum recommended sampling rate

The Pulse system samples at 256 kHz if I remember correctly

As you state, the other meters don't even come close to meeting either mil-spec or recommended sampling rates

But people will believe whatever they want to believe


The meter is just one part of the equation though - there's still a great deal of variability coming from different hosts, ammo, environmental conditions, testing location (reflective surfaces), microphone placement, etc. but it part of developing a credible dataset that can be compared starts with having equipment that is capable of measuring the phenomena of interest (as your testing showed).
Link Posted: 9/10/2017 1:07:46 AM EDT
[#5]
First the LD meters cannot pick up the peak of the shot, so they are a waste of time.

Second, the 2209 used had a 10dB difference between shots in the string.  You will not get an A weighted shot at 100dB no matter how quiet the shot is.  A firing pin drop is louder than this when measured properly.

The article and results are nothing but fluff to sell product.  Been going on in the industry for years since I quit testing.  Consider any sound meter testing from any company to be fake news.  Its been that way for years.
Link Posted: 9/10/2017 6:06:55 PM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
First the LD meters cannot pick up the peak of the shot, so they are a waste of time.

Second, the 2209 used had a 10dB difference between shots in the string.  You will not get an A weighted shot at 100dB no matter how quiet the shot is.  A firing pin drop is louder than this when measured properly.

The article and results are nothing but fluff to sell product.  Been going on in the industry for years since I quit testing.  Consider any sound meter testing from any company to be fake news.  Its been that way for years.
View Quote
I agree all but the LD meter comment.  

All these company's and guys that get paid to review them now use tone as a means to debunk side by side tests.

I believe if you use the LD on the same day with same ammunition ect. That the difference between two or more cans would be an accurate representation.
Link Posted: 9/10/2017 6:39:59 PM EDT
[#7]
Link Posted: 9/10/2017 7:29:37 PM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The 2209 is in spec and was A weighted. There were a couple shots noticeably louder than others. I think unburnt powder building up and then burning off was the cause. The digital meter is useless for gunshots with a 30ms rise time and insufficient sample rate. It doesn't matter what you think, most modern digital meters are no good for measuring gunshots. The Pulse system works but is pricey.
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In your arrival it is completely BS that 2209 did not work. Those numbers are atrocious.
Link Posted: 9/12/2017 2:16:02 AM EDT
[#9]
Link Posted: 9/12/2017 8:22:05 AM EDT
[#10]
Link Posted: 9/12/2017 9:32:50 AM EDT
[#11]
Link Posted: 9/12/2017 10:43:33 AM EDT
[#12]
Link Posted: 9/16/2017 10:48:31 AM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I have a lot of personal experience with two Larsen-Davis meters: The 800B and the LxT1. My 800B has a rise time of 13 microseconds, has an analog detector, and digital post processing. The LxT1 is guaranteed to have a rise time of 30 microseconds or better, and the maximum with a digital detector is 28. Both have the correct 1/4" random incidence microphone for the meter. The 800B and B&K 2209 have pretty much the same peak detector (better than 20 microsecond rise time).

At Gemtech last year, we had a B&K demo with their pulse system, although the mic they used (1/4") had a rise time of 6-7 microseconds. Interesting results. The 800B, 2209, and LxT1 are self-contained handheld meters. The Pulse is bulkier.

Unweighted (which is probably the most correct method) showed that the 800B read 4 dB low compared to the pulse and the LxT1 read about 9 dB low. Compared to the 800B, the LxT1 read 5 dB low. This is to be expected based on rise times and the sharp slope of the firearm peak.

However, with C weighting, The 800B read 1 dB low compared to the pulse and the LxT1 read 1 dB low compared to the 800B. The explanation is fairly simple: The weighting networks degrade the meters to match the frequency response of the human ear, and they essentially cut off at a little over 25-30 kHz. Weighting networks, in essence, degrade the meters to around 30 microsecond rise time.

MIL-STD has traditionally specified a rise time of 20 or better, but permits either A or C weighting, which I believe to be ill advised when considering hearing damage risk. When one installs a suppressor on a barrel, the suppressed barrel has to still dissipate the same amount of energy as non-suppressed, but the suppressor reduces the pressure (through primarily volume expansion) and spreads out the time-exit curve through internal turbulence and momentary baffle trapping. The result is a broader, more spread out and lower intensity peak with a more gradual slope.

The B&K Pulse unit is very expensive with the microphones and accessories (around $25K). This includes expensive software and a laptop is necessary. Fully decked out, it is portable, but not nearly as compact as a hand-held meter. Both the LD 800B and the B&K 2209 are long out of production, and as they age, repair parts are becoming really scarce. LD keeps rapidly dwindling trade-ins as a source of replacement boards.

The LxT1 is current production, is handheld, and runs on a set of AA batteries.It has a lot of features that qualify it as a precision meter for environmental measurements, and it has the best of the currently available peak detectors in handheld instruments. While not absolutely perfect for our purposes, it is the best available in portability and price point (around $3,000).

As long as A- or C-weighting are specified or permitted, the LxT1 is the best bet as a substitute for the 800B or 2209 if you keep in mind that it will read one to two dB low. Nothing else in its price range or portability will do the job. There are a lot of industrial sound meters available that are tempting, but not all have a peak detector (not the same thing as an impulse detector), and those that do have a rise time greater than 50 microseconds (which gets you well into the error region).

Please remember as you find an 800B or 2209 on eBay, these meters are over 25-35 years old and may no longer meet their original specs or be repairable. And few come with the correct microphone; most will have a 1/2" mic that definitely will not be adequate for firearm sounds. And, of course, you will need a calibrator which will run a couple of hundred dollars.
View Quote
I always enjoy reading your posts. Thank you.
RonA
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