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Link Posted: 12/2/2008 1:08:57 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Using dB is misleading as well.  People either are informed consumers or just like to think they are.

Clearly using the 97% number is marketing, but then so is publishing dB numbers.  The companies that don't publish any sound reduction numbers are onto something –– it reduces the number of internet asshats who badmouth your company.  I don't trust the claims any silencer companies.  It's a crooked industry, IMO.

 


I honestly think 2-4 db difference in cans makes little difference as a feature. QD, weight, etc. are more important than the differences in sound reduction in any given rifle.


Thats actually the point of it all
A reduction of 3 db is cutting the energy in half

So a can that do that has achieved not a little ,but much

Try to look at it like this

You have a cake

take 3db away
You now have a 1/2 cake
That was much
Now do it again
You now have a 1/4 cake (the half of a half is 1/4)
Do it again
You now have a 1/8 cake
again
1/16

you see, you will never get rid of the cake

But the first part is always the biggest

thats why the upper few DB is so important ,,if you care about the cans ability to suppress sound

DB rules the show


I think you example would make more sense if it was explained in terms of pie rather than cake.  Just sayin'.
Link Posted: 12/2/2008 1:34:22 PM EDT
[#2]
Link Posted: 12/3/2008 4:03:38 AM EDT
[#3]
If 97% bothers you then dont use db either becasue 50db and 100 db does not sound like twice the sound... which is what the layman will think if they know nothing of db.  You cant just pick things you are more comfortable with and go with that based off perception... peole could just say light moves instantly becaue it appears to do so vs sound.  Math and science are absoloutes.  You can use them or not.  Dont be upset because someone else uses them and you choose to not perform due diligence before jumping into a discussion.
Link Posted: 12/3/2008 4:07:38 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Using dB is misleading as well.  People either are informed consumers or just like to think they are.

Clearly using the 97% number is marketing, but then so is publishing dB numbers.  The companies that don't publish any sound reduction numbers are onto something –– it reduces the number of internet asshats who badmouth your company.  I don't trust the claims any silencer companies.  It's a crooked industry, IMO.

 


I honestly think 2-4 db difference in cans makes little difference as a feature. QD, weight, etc. are more important than the differences in sound reduction in any given rifle.


Thats actually the point of it all
A reduction of 3 db is cutting the energy in half

So a can that do that has achieved not a little ,but much

Try to look at it like this

You have a cake

take 3db away
You now have a 1/2 cake
That was much
Now do it again
You now have a 1/4 cake (the half of a half is 1/4)
Do it again
You now have a 1/8 cake
again
1/16

you see, you will never get rid of the cake

But the first part is always the biggest

thats why the upper few DB is so important ,,if you care about the cans ability to suppress sound

DB rules the show


I think you example would make more sense if it was explained in terms of pie rather than cake.  Just sayin'.



Heck I dont think the db reduction figures are important AT ALL.  The only thing ANY user cares about is the suppressed db figure.  If you have a super loud rifle with a loud action that is painful to shoot who cares how many db are being removed?  Its still loud.

Would you rather have 32 db reduction on a 10.5" upper or 31 db reduction on a 20" upper from purely a perspective of sound to your ear?
Link Posted: 12/3/2008 5:20:51 AM EDT
[#5]
Link Posted: 12/3/2008 7:42:31 AM EDT
[#6]
Has anyone ever measured the action noise on an AR15 or M16?
Link Posted: 12/3/2008 10:09:04 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
Has anyone ever measured the action noise on an AR15 or M16?


Try this ,lock the bolt back (on a empty gun )
put in earplugs give you gun a hug having the skull pressed against the buffertube
then  press the bolt catch =loud to the ear , could be to loud  in the long run

And no shoots was fired
Link Posted: 12/3/2008 10:28:31 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Why would you guess?  Do you not understand the logarithmic scale on which decibels are measured?

Decibels are counted on a base-10 logarithmic scale.  1dB is measured as a sound intensity of 10^-12 Watts per square meter (or 20 micropascals of sound pressure).  From there, everything is calculated as 10 raised to the power of the number of bels (1 bel = 10 decibels) of sound intensity.

If the intensity of 1dB = 10^-12 W/m^2 = "I", then

10dB = 10^1 = 10 x I
20dB = 10^2 = 100 x I
30dB = 10^3 = 1000 x I
40dB = 10^4 = 10000 x I

Etcetera.  Thus,

160dB = 10^16 = 10000000000000000 x I, or 10 quadrillion times more intense than a sound of 1dB.

130dB = 10^13 x I, or 99.9% less intense than a 160dB sound.  It is perfectly reasonable and correct to say that a 30dB can removes over 95% of sound intensity.

Another way to do this math is that each additional decibel represents a 26% increase in sound intensity.  Thus, a 160dB sound is 1.26^30 = 1026 times more intense than a 130dB sound.


I bet if this guy described intercourse, he could suck the fun out of that too.  
Link Posted: 12/3/2008 2:36:47 PM EDT
[#9]
All I can say is the ladies seem to like it. :)
Link Posted: 12/3/2008 5:44:45 PM EDT
[#10]
Link Posted: 12/4/2008 5:33:12 AM EDT
[#11]


Quoted:



Quoted:

Has anyone ever measured the action noise on an AR15 or M16?




That would be  cool experiment.  You would probably need to do this inside a building with the barrel noise insulated to the outside, and then again with a high-performance silencer to see if action noise was different with the silencer.  



That would also might tell us the sound level at which the theoretical maximum sound reduction transferable to the firer would be obtained.  





A simpler experiment would be to measure AR15 bolt dropping on an empty chamber (or on a live round I suppose.)  If I'm not mistaken, that's the noisiest part of the action.  In my experience the action is noticeably quieter on the last round when shooting suppressed.  Of course I could be mistaken.





 
Link Posted: 12/4/2008 9:12:52 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Has anyone ever measured the action noise on an AR15 or M16?


That would be  cool experiment.  You would probably need to do this inside a building with the barrel noise insulated to the outside, and then again with a high-performance silencer to see if action noise was different with the silencer.  

That would also might tell us the sound level at which the theoretical maximum sound reduction transferable to the firer would be obtained.  


A simpler experiment would be to measure AR15 bolt dropping on an empty chamber (or on a live round I suppose.)  If I'm not mistaken, that's the noisiest part of the action.  In my experience the action is noticeably quieter on the last round when shooting suppressed.  Of course I could be mistaken.

 


The bolt  should lock back after the last round ,so only half the action cycle noise at the last shoot

But if people is concerned of what reaches the inner ear ,they should trying what i did write in my post above without a shoot fired
The action noise that travels through the stock to your skull  is rather noisy (try that with a HK G3)
Link Posted: 12/4/2008 11:12:37 AM EDT
[#13]



Quoted:





Quoted:




Quoted:




Quoted:


Has anyone ever measured the action noise on an AR15 or M16?






That would be  cool experiment.  You would probably need to do this inside a building with the barrel noise insulated to the outside, and then again with a high-performance silencer to see if action noise was different with the silencer.  





That would also might tell us the sound level at which the theoretical maximum sound reduction transferable to the firer would be obtained.  








A simpler experiment would be to measure AR15 bolt dropping on an empty chamber (or on a live round I suppose.)  If I'm not mistaken, that's the noisiest part of the action.  In my experience the action is noticeably quieter on the last round when shooting suppressed.  Of course I could be mistaken.





 






The bolt  should lock back after the last round ,so only half the action cycle noise at the last shoot





But if people is concerned of what reaches the inner ear ,they should trying what i did write in my post above without a shoot fired


The action noise that travels through the stock to your skull  is rather noisy (try that with a HK G3

)



That's my point. The gun is noticeably quieter on the last round because the bolt is not slamming home.  I believe the bolt dropping on the chamber is the noisiest part of the action, and I think if you can get to the point where the muzzle report is quieter than the bolt moving forward, then the gun can't get any quieter.  I don't think the bolt moving back is going to be adding to the peak sound level at that point.  But like I said, I could be wrong.
 
Link Posted: 12/4/2008 1:59:28 PM EDT
[#14]
Yep ,but my point is that the noise transfered through the air isnt the same as the one going through the stock via the skull to the inner ear ,even if you use ear plugs or muffs  the action noise will get to the inner ear

So a can that creates more back pressure that cycles the action harder/louder ,MIGHT be more quiet to the microphone and bystander .but louder to the shooter


So it boils down to WHO is it we want to expose to less sound
The shooter
The bystander
The target
Whoever you dont want to know from where the shoot came
Link Posted: 12/4/2008 3:33:15 PM EDT
[#15]




Quoted:




Yep ,but my point is that the noise transfered through the air isnt the same as the one going through the stock via the skull to the inner ear ,even if you use ear plugs or muffs  the action noise will get to the inner ear
So a can that creates more back pressure that cycles the action harder/louder ,MIGHT be more quiet to the microphone and bystander .but louder to the shooter




So it boils down to WHO is it we want to expose to less sound



The shooter



The bystander



The target



Whoever you dont want to know from where the shoot came




I get what you're saying, but you can tune via springs/buffers the cyclic rate / BCG velocity, so it's real hard to do any comparisons in that regard.  If you can get to the point that muzzle report is quieter than the action/gas at the ejection port, and get the action to be as quiet as possible (which isn't too quiet on an AR-15), then you're left with action noise and supersonic crack.  I'd like to know what just the action noise would be 1m to the left.  For that matter, metering it at the ejection port might be more useful.





I only care about downrange or distant listeners myself.
 
Link Posted: 12/4/2008 3:59:29 PM EDT
[#16]
Here's a little table of sound reduction in dB versus percentage reduction.  I don't want to choose a side in the thread, but if you look at the % numbers, they get really murky really quick.

The formula is :
%reduction = 1 / ( 2 ^ (-1 *dB/3))


dB     %reduction
-1     21%
-2     37%
-3     50%
-4     60%
-5     69%
-6     75%
-7     80%
-8     84%
-9     88%
-10     90.1%
-11     92.1%
-12     93.8%
-13     95.0%
-14     96.1%
-15     96.9%
-16     97.5%
-17     98.0%
-18     98.4%
-19     98.8%
-20     99.02%
-21     99.22%
-22     99.38%
-23     99.51%
-24     99.61%
-25     99.69%
-26     99.75%
-27     99.80%
-28     99.84%
-29     99.88%
-30     99.90%
-31     99.92%
-32     99.938%
-33     99.951%
-34     99.961%
-35     99.969%
-36     99.976%
-37     99.981%
-38     99.985%
-39     99.988%
-40     99.990%
-41     99.992%
-42     99.994%


EDIT : hopefully that fixed the formatting
Link Posted: 12/4/2008 5:26:15 PM EDT
[#17]
Oh good!  My 9mm can eliminates 100% of the noise- if you round 99.96 up!

Good, problem solved.  This is the best way to describe reductions in noise!
Link Posted: 12/4/2008 6:00:55 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Oh good!  My 9mm can eliminates 100% of the noise- if you round 99.96 up!

Good, problem solved.  This is the best way to describe reductions in noise!


One other thing to keep in mind is when some people say "3dB isn't a big difference"

Well, the FIRST 3dB is very significant, 50% of the noise.     The LAST 3dB, from 33 to 36dB for example, is 0.02% of the noise.

HTH
Link Posted: 12/4/2008 7:01:22 PM EDT
[#19]
What you just said REALLY makes it seem a silly way to express reductions.

So I can make a really bad Form1 suppressor that reduces it 3dB and actually say it reduces the noise by 50% when we know it doesn't.

It reduces the intensity or energy by 50% but not what we as humans actually hear by 50% and we all know that...

Link Posted: 12/5/2008 12:57:53 AM EDT
[#20]
Link Posted: 12/5/2008 6:50:26 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Has anyone ever measured the action noise on an AR15 or M16?


Try this ,lock the bolt back (on a empty gun )
put in earplugs give you gun a hug having the skull pressed against the buffertube
then  press the bolt catch =loud to the ear , could be to loud  in the long run

And no shoots was fired



You cant just measure the bolt closing on an empty chamber either.  A bolt closing on an empty chamber makes my right ear RING every single time... it is painful to me.  Closing when chambering a round is not loud or painful at ALL.
Link Posted: 12/5/2008 6:58:06 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Oh good!  My 9mm can eliminates 100% of the noise- if you round 99.96 up!

Good, problem solved.  This is the best way to describe reductions in noise!


One other thing to keep in mind is when some people say "3dB isn't a big difference"

Well, the FIRST 3dB is very significant, 50% of the noise.     The LAST 3dB, from 33 to 36dB for example, is 0.02% of the noise.

HTH



That final few db can still be important though.  Last Texas suppressor shoot SC_Texas shot a 07 SPR/M4 and I was standing 1 m left of muzzle.  FRP hurt my ear and made it ring.  The following shots did not and were MUCH more comfortable as far as perception.

I still think its silly to argue against the mathmatical reality of what is energy reduction.

Car 1 weighs 3000 pounds and has 400 HP/400 TQ.  Car 2 weighs 5000 pounds and has 420 HP and 420 TQ... saying car 2 has more power is a fact... even though the end user will feel that car # 1 has much more power when driving.

Car number 1 has 300 HP and 220 TQ.  Car 2 has 295 HP and 295 TQ.  Saying car 1 has more HP even though it will feel slower when driven does not change the fact it has still got more HP.

The user's perception does not change the facts even when the perception is opposite the facts.
Link Posted: 12/5/2008 2:41:57 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
What you just said REALLY makes it seem a silly way to express reductions.

So I can make a really bad Form1 suppressor that reduces it 3dB and actually say it reduces the noise by 50% when we know it doesn't.

It reduces the intensity or energy by 50% but not what we as humans actually hear by 50% and we all know that...




But it does reduce the noise by 50%

Thats the point dont you get it ?

Take the start number ,no matter what it is on a unsuppressed riffle
Take 3 db away = half of the the sound you started with  
Link Posted: 12/6/2008 11:55:27 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
What you just said REALLY makes it seem a silly way to express reductions.

So I can make a really bad Form1 suppressor that reduces it 3dB and actually say it reduces the noise by 50% when we know it doesn't.

It reduces the intensity or energy by 50% but not what we as humans actually hear by 50% and we all know that...



Oh for crying out loud...

Link Posted: 12/6/2008 3:06:07 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Quoted:
What you just said REALLY makes it seem a silly way to express reductions.

So I can make a really bad Form1 suppressor that reduces it 3dB and actually say it reduces the noise by 50% when we know it doesn't.

It reduces the intensity or energy by 50% but not what we as humans actually hear by 50% and we all know that...



Oh for crying out loud...



Yes, this is all akin to taking a 4" diameter PVC pipe to pour water on your head.  You can drop it to a 3" diameter pipe and have what, half the amount of water technically, even though to most it would at first seem like 3/4...

Point being, you can get all technical about exactly how much of a reduction it is but in the end, you are probably getting much more water dumped on your head than you want-  same thing with these numbers.  Even if it's a 50% reduction losing 3dBs, your ears still hear almost all of the noise- much more than you want to.
Link Posted: 12/6/2008 3:15:56 PM EDT
[#26]
Here's my rule of "dB and what it sounds like" :

If you understand dB*, you aren't asking about a more practical rating.  If you don't understand dB, shoot the damn can and buy it if you like it.

*dB is on a log scale (3db = twice as loud) and dB measures power of the sound wave. To restate that, it measures power of the sound wave.  dB does not relate, directly, to what any human ear will hear.  dBa is more representative of what the TYPICAL (ie: not your) human ear hears.   dB is a 100% accurate measurement - and it has a vague relation to what YOU PERSONALLY will hear.
Link Posted: 12/6/2008 3:49:54 PM EDT
[#27]


Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:

What you just said REALLY makes it seem a silly way to express reductions.



So I can make a really bad Form1 suppressor that reduces it 3dB and actually say it reduces the noise by 50% when we know it doesn't.



It reduces the intensity or energy by 50% but not what we as humans actually hear by 50% and we all know that...







Oh for crying out loud...








Yes, this is all akin to taking a 4" diameter PVC pipe to pour water on your head.  You can drop it to a 3" diameter pipe and have what, half the amount of water technically, even though to most it would at first seem like 3/4...



Point being, you can get all technical about exactly how much of a reduction it is but in the end, you are probably getting much more water dumped on your head than you want-  same thing with these numbers.  Even if it's a 50% reduction losing 3dBs, your ears still hear almost all of the noise- much more than you want to.



So what exactly do you take issue with?  Using a logarithmic scale to measure sound pressure?





 
Link Posted: 12/31/2008 7:49:29 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Quoted:

In other words stand in an open field, fire an M4, then step 25 meters to the rear and have someone at the original location fire it again, now pick up a suppressed M4, fire it, and the sound intensity will probably feel similar to the unsuppressed at 25 meters.

I think the suppressed gun at the shooter would sound a lot quieter than the unsuppressed gun at 25M.

But yes, describing sound reduction as a percentage is going to confuse those who don't understand the details.  For that matter, the same is true when giving dB figures.
 



AAAAaaahhh. But one must not forget the intent of most advertising is NOT to remove confusion...but to SELL.  That is why the "stats" are used.  They are technically correct (read "true") so they can be used without negative legal ramifications, while running very little risk that anyone will actually understand.  

I remember what a college prof once told us about statistics, "Figures lie and liars figure".
Link Posted: 1/1/2009 11:02:50 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What you just said REALLY makes it seem a silly way to express reductions.

So I can make a really bad Form1 suppressor that reduces it 3dB and actually say it reduces the noise by 50% when we know it doesn't.

It reduces the intensity or energy by 50% but not what we as humans actually hear by 50% and we all know that...



Oh for crying out loud...



Yes, this is all akin to taking a 4" diameter PVC pipe to pour water on your head.  You can drop it to a 3" diameter pipe and have what, half the amount of water technically, even though to most it would at first seem like 3/4...

Point being, you can get all technical about exactly how much of a reduction it is but in the end, you are probably getting much more water dumped on your head than you want-  same thing with these numbers.  Even if it's a 50% reduction losing 3dBs, your ears still hear almost all of the noise- much more than you want to.

So what exactly do you take issue with?  Using a logarithmic scale to measure sound pressure?

 



Yes... this should not be allowed by GOD!!!
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