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Posted: 2/28/2002 9:18:05 PM EDT
I am a patrol officer in Oregon and my patrol rifle is a 14.5" fluted bushy but my chief wants to switch over to mini 14's....

He said if I can Show documentation that the AR is an industry standard he will go with the black rifle.

The key is I have to show that the law enforcement community is using the AR and moving away from Ruger

help please..........
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 9:27:55 PM EDT
just look at swat teams all over the U.S. most use M-1, M-16/M-4 (other varients too), MP5s and i thnk thats it. i dont think they go for the rugur that much. besides, whenever i see stand offs on tv and stuff they never had rugurs. my dad (Houston P.D.) said that our team doesnt use the rugur. by anyway i hope you get to keep it. seen me the deatails of the whole problem am i can make up some real good B.S. that your chief will prob. buy. anyway , good luck. (if you know where i can get a M-16A1 triangle forarms let me know, thanks. its for my bushy 20".)
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 9:34:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2002 2:14:48 PM EDT by Benjamin0001]
Look at your crime statistics and then giving all those situations you could be involved with make a recomendation. The mini 14 is 30 caliber right, isn't that a pistol round?? Given those situations described in your crime stats which involve the use of partol officers in armed confrontation. Who cares if it industry standard. Look at it and give a report based upon the perspective of , "THE RIGHT TOOL FOR THE RIGHT JOB".

Just my .02 cents worth.

Benjamin

EDITED ONE DAY LATER TO ADD:

DOH!!! Jesus it was late I was tired. I don't know what the hell I was thinking...Sorry
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 9:38:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Benjamin0001:
Look at your crime statistics and then giving all those situations you could be involved with make a recomendation. The mini 14 is 30 caliber right, isn't that a pistol round?? Given those situations described in your crime stats which involve the use of partol officers in armed confrontation. Who cares if it industry standard. Look at it and give a report based upon the perspective of , "THE RIGHT TOOL FOR THE RIGHT JOB".

Just my .02 cents worth.

Benjamin




???

mini 14= .223
mini 30= 7.62x39
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 9:44:29 PM EDT
well the mini14 is a 5.56 and the mini 30 is the 7.62

as far as the chief he is old school and thinks the mini and Ruger for that matter are the best thing going.

statistics dont sell he said the mini will do anything the AR can.....

I need a publication explaining why departments went with the AR in the U.S.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 9:49:26 PM EDT
He said if I can Show documentation that the AR is an industry standard he will go with the black rifle.

Hmm... well it sounds as if he is rather uneducated on the subject. He sounds like he is saying - I heard this is what everone else has, so I want them too.

If he needs an education - give it to him. Argue your case in the manner that will be most effective to him and his personality.

If he needs numbers: hmmf - stack the deck:

contact Ruger.

Then contact:

Colt
Armalite
Bushy
Rock River
Oly
yada yada yada

Contact the feds, it sounds like he is the kinda guy that would impressed by that.

Exactly where is this "Chief Wigum" anyway. Always nice to know where the bright ones are - especially if they can be voted out.

Yes I am a voting OR resident.

Thanx
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 9:53:50 PM EDT
City Police Dept. + Municipality = Appointed position.(sorry no voting)
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 10:06:33 PM EDT
I've seen Portland police officers out at the gun club with their AR15/M16/M4. This may have been the SWAT team.

Try calling around to find out what other LEOs around the state are using.
Link Posted: 2/28/2002 10:20:04 PM EDT
Take him to the range and shoot both guns. Let him see the difference in accuracy.
Link Posted: 3/1/2002 2:56:58 AM EDT
XM,

The major difference between the Ruger and the AR in my opinion is the sights. Ruger's sights are simply horrid. The make target identification difficult and affect accuracy. These are critical issues to the patrol officer.

The only potential advantage to the ruger is price. They are 1/2 the cost of the AR-15.
I wish you good luck.

Regards,
Gary
Link Posted: 3/1/2002 3:08:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2002 3:10:34 AM EDT by pdm]
Contact the NC SBI. They dumped the mini 14 a few years ago in favor of the CAR 15. Also, contact the NCTOA (NC Tactical officer association). I think that they have stats on who's using what in NC.

I would sell it in terms of:

User familiarization (how many ex mil guys on the force?

PLL (spare parts and mags...and at what cost?)

Gadgets and upgrades (aimers, lights, optics, etc)

Long term cost savings (re barreling is a matter of a mail order, etc)

Flexibility in that a support weapon can double as an entry weapon with an upper change.


If all else fails you should wrestle him for it. If you can choke him out then you get the CAR15, if he wins your stuck with the Ruger.

Link Posted: 3/1/2002 3:48:34 AM EDT
We have both, and the guys with the mini-14's wish they had Ar15s. It was a cost thing for us. If you own your own mini-14 or AR15 then you can pack it, but the Dept only owns Mini's.
We have had several reaibality problems with the Mini's, and mag changes are not as smooth (you have to insert them at an angle). We broke a spring in one of the mini's before round 1000 during training. The Ar's really are the standard. Maybe get with you local acadmey and inquire if they have any #'s, or NTOA.org.
Art in KY
Spell check down again?
Link Posted: 3/1/2002 5:07:18 AM EDT
Before the A2 modifications on the M16 the Mini14 had a possibility (notice I said possibility not probability) of replacing the M16 with the 1/12 twist lightweight barrel. However the accuracy issue changed with the A2 (heavier barrel past the handguard and 1/7 twist).

The other consideration he should have is magazines... even LEO marked magazines for the Mini14 are more expensive to acquire than LEO marked magazines for the M16/AR15.

Yes the Mini14 is a wood and metal rifle and appears less intimidating to the public. However you could always find the wood furniture to replace the plastic furniture on the M16/AR15.

Of course this is my opinion and all ... but then again ...

Ted...
Link Posted: 3/1/2002 5:22:57 AM EDT
IMHO- the best thing to do for an administrator is a hands on demonstration showing the strengths versus weaknesses.
1) Have a reduced K-5 target set up 100 yards away and have an accurracy contest. The AR-should- win easily. HAve the chief shoot both guns.
2) Do a little stress reloading with both weapons. The AR will come out on top.
3) Justify the initial higher price of the AR's by referring to their cheaper and easily found accessories, the ease of maintainance and repair, and the estimated service life of the barrel/weapon.
Remember- there are lots of certified AR gunsmiths out there and only a few certified Mini gunsmiths.

Good luck
Link Posted: 3/1/2002 1:21:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2002 1:23:04 PM EDT by 199]
A few ideas:

1) Try to focus on what the Federal Government uses since they don’t have the money problems or political correctness issues that the locals do.

Outfits that use AR-15’s or M16’s include FBI, DEA, Secret Service, ATF, State Department, CIA, and Bureau of Prisons. Further, the Marshals Service is replacing their Mini-14’s with them and Customs is replacing their Steyr-Augs with them. The only Feds that I know of with Mini-14’s are in the Department of Interior.

You might be able to get a current list of who uses what from the folks at FLETC. www.fletc.gov Try either the Firearms Division or the Office of State and Local Training www.fletc.gov/osl.

However, do NOT expect anyone at FLETC to recommend a specific make or type of firearm, they’re not supposed to do that.

Keep in mind that some large local departments (such as NYPD) do use the Mini-14.

2) The M-16 is an extremely well-proven combat rifle (and, of course, the AR is based on it). The Mini-14 is a commercial rifle with virtually no military background (I think there are some French paramilitary units that use it).

3) The Mini-14’s manual safety is derived from the M14/M1 safety. It is located at the front of the triggerguard and is designed so that the triggerfinger is inserted into the triggerguard and pushed forward to release it.

This is no longer an acceptable way to handle a firearm in law enforcement. Current thinking is that the triggerfinger should not be placed in the triggerguard until the LEO is preparing to (or at least can live with) firing the weapon.

Further, the ackwardness of the Mini-14’s safety encourages LEO’s to switch it to the fire position prematurely, so they don’t risk having to fumble with it later.
Link Posted: 3/1/2002 1:28:57 PM EDT
But didn't the A-Team use Mini-14's? If they had them, then the rifle must be better than anything else Seriously, I've seen more departments with AR's than any other weapon. The Mini-14 is fun as hell to shoot, but I don't think I would rely on it as a service weapon. And everything said about the safety and magazine insertion is true.
Link Posted: 3/1/2002 1:45:08 PM EDT
Hello Bro Officer, I am a New York City Firearms Instructor for the New York City Dept of Correction. And in responce to your question,the Mini 14 is a very good rifle.But our dept has gone with the Colt M4.The M4 or AR's are very good weapons. I have been to some schools with fellow Instructors with the M4,and we had no problems.New York State is a very libirual state.And my dept is very hard on guns to begin with.And we were able to sell them the M4,Benelli M1 super 90,And the Colt SMG in 9mm. We are doing away with the MP5,and adopting the COLT M4. NYPD is a very big fan of the Mini14 and their Emergecy Service Unit is also going with the Colt M4. If the United States protects us with the M16 family why not our Dept.

Be Safe,Good Luck

Link Posted: 3/1/2002 2:27:57 PM EDT
I'm in Bandon, where are you? e-mail me.......
Link Posted: 3/1/2002 3:02:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2002 3:05:31 PM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 3/1/2002 3:36:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2002 3:37:33 PM EDT by Mike_T]
Aimless- just a note

The former police officer Mr. Gabe Suarez was not a member of LAPD. He is, to the best of my knowledge, currently in prison.
I have no first hand knowledge on this matter involving him but there were several newspaper reports about this.
Here's a link to some discussion on that:
http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000326.html

For information purposes only-draw your own conclusions
Link Posted: 3/1/2002 4:19:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/1/2002 4:26:58 PM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 3/2/2002 12:56:48 AM EDT
Actually the Standard is the AK74..just ask any cop..in Russia......
Link Posted: 3/2/2002 3:44:06 AM EDT
NYPD is getting close to dumping the Mini for M4's. But it is still not a done deal.
Link Posted: 3/2/2002 11:05:05 AM EDT
And now, for something completely different.

The Mini 14 is a fine patrol rifle. I do think that personal preference should be left up to the officer, and if you have a Bushmaster you'd rather use, you should be permitted to do so after qualifying. That being said, the Mini 14 is a perfectly good rifle, and there are, from where I stand, some real downsides to an AR type rifle being used by law enforcement. The concerns about militarization (or at least the appearance thereof) of law enforcement are real, and held by a large segment of the public, and the "black rifle" does not help matters. If I were equipping a small town police force, public perception would definitely be a concern.

Also, 199 is completely off base about the mini's safety mechanism/placement. Current training is also that you leave the safety of your weapon ON until you are ready to fire. The Garand-type safety of the Mini is about the most fumble-free safety type around, and with minimal training an officer can learn to take the safety off immediately before taking a shot, then re-engage it instantly after the shot is taken. The Mini's safety system is IMHO if anything superior to the stock AR15 safety, which is not ambidextrous, although that problem is easily remedied.

Both of these guns will serve the purpose fine. Many smaller law enforcement departments (and some of the larger ones) would be far better served by going to a Savage .308 bolt scout type rifle than an autoloader of any kind. The fact is there's much more call for an officer to be able to accurately place a single shot and end a threat than there is for him to put thirty rounds downrange in a few seconds :)
Link Posted: 3/2/2002 11:26:14 AM EDT
the ONLY edge the 14 has is price, and iguess looking PC, but if you already have the AR, i dont see it being costeffective to ditch it and buy sometihng new. tell him you will settle for a krinkov....
Link Posted: 3/2/2002 11:52:30 AM EDT

Besides the point that the military uses this battle-proven time-tested weapon and the pure adaptability to changes of needs... ie upper change possiblities.

I thought to myself, If I had to face an enemy (military or civilian) would I want him to have the Mini 14 or the ar15?

I think everyone will come up with the same answer.

Link Posted: 3/2/2002 12:32:06 PM EDT
Equipment needs be they arms, ammo, radio, etc. are subject to a much higher scrutiny from a liablility standpoint today than in the past.

Some of these areas:

State of the art, track record, current standard within the industry, maintenance, preventive maintenance, training, continued training, down time, and a few more.

Firearms should be scrutinized for the best accuracy, ammunition for the best accuracy per type as Match grade 69gr. MatchKing for sniper vs. 50 gr. Ballistic tip for reduced penetration.

Reliability, repair, ergonomics, access to parts, factory service, factory rep, factory training for armorers and for line and staff.

If the Mini should go down, will Ruger let you have extra parts on hand??? They're pretty picky.

Side by side testing should include spaced single shots and also shots for effect after 5 or 10 quick rounds have been expended. If a Mini should be accurate, it seems to wander after several quick shots when the barrel is hot.

The Adaptability of the AR is far greater so far as lights, scopes, lasers, night vision, red dots.

From what I've seen, a Mini needs to be worked over extensively with new barrel, trigger, sights, gas system, etc. to equal the accuracy of a good AR.

By the time you've done this, the cost is usually over the cost of the AR. You can reseach costs on this at ChiefAJ.com, Accuracy Works( or something similar, in Texas I think).

Things don't always happen with the swat team on scene at the precise moment things go to hell. Lives may depend on the regular patrolman and an accurate rifle.


Link Posted: 3/2/2002 1:03:30 PM EDT
You would think this would come from the Budget department not the Chief!
Link Posted: 3/2/2002 2:35:42 PM EDT
?!?!?!?!?! Is this guy for real? Is he one of those old guys who hate the M16 from Vietnam and haven't trusted it since? I didn't think anyone even bought Mini-14's anymore or MP-5's for that matter. How many of your department members have military experience? How many would prefer a Mini-14? Proving that something is a police standard by documention is absolutely ridiculous. Type him something up that says;
Lots of cops were blue uniforms
Lots of cops drive Crown Vics
Lots of cops have Glocks
Lots of cops have Remington 870's
Lots of cops have AR-15's
Link Posted: 3/2/2002 3:00:37 PM EDT
XM15:

This ought to help you. Check out Bushmaster's references as to who uses their guns. Don't buy Colt, you'd be paying a premium. Bushmaster is far cheaper (at least on the civilian market ), and they're just as good if not better than Colt.

http://www.bushmaster.com/le/agencies.htm

Other than that, I've owned both the Mini-14 and a Bushmater V-match Carbine. The Mini-14 sucks compared to the AR-15 for the reasons stated prior: mag switches suck, reliability an issue, accuracy is poor and parts are harder to come by (hence, one supplier, Ruger).

I have an Eotech on my V-match, with an ARMS 40 flip-up sight and a Bushmaster flip-up front sight. I took my dad out to and indoor range today, and he shot it for the first time. He was amazed by the accuracy. With controlled rapid fire, I was putting all of my rounds into the head of the human target we had up at 25 yards.

You just need to take your boss out to a range and let him play with it. As far as the AR-15 vs. the Mini-14 goes, the AR-15 is superior. Now compared with other weapons systems, such as the G36C or IMI Micro Galil, the M4/AR-15 is lacking. If your dept. is low on cash, the M4 is the way to go. If you got $1200 to spend on each rifle, look at the HK or Micro Galil. They're far more reliable, but less cost effective.

Just my two cents,

themao
Link Posted: 3/2/2002 3:22:35 PM EDT
oh yah, god forbid you needed a fast mag change (that would be a pretty big SHTF) the AR is so much better. rifle mag changes dont get faster then an AR and a good drop free mag.
Link Posted: 3/2/2002 7:21:31 PM EDT
Just tell them that the mini- 14 is not very accurate and could end up being a libility problem in terms of safety. Whereas the ar-15 is very accurate and and recommended by most govrnmental law enforcement agencies.
Link Posted: 3/2/2002 7:23:02 PM EDT
Just tell them that the mini- 14 is not very accurate and could end up being a liability problem in terms of safety. Whereas the ar-15 is very accurate and and recommended by most govrnmental law enforcement agencies.
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 3:45:30 PM EDT
Call Houston PD (TX) SWAT Detail, these guys are teaching their asses off right now on a patrol rifle course. They are teaching several hunderd officers how to use and deploy with................................

AR's!

They did our Tactical Rifle School and Mini-s were not cared for at all. Their main reasons are not as high quality weapon as the AR, sights and accuracy. The mini dosen't compare
very well at all.

You can also call the magazine Guns and Ammo (Peterson Publishing?)- their LE edition. They have done numerous articles on the AR. Also the magazine Weapons for Law Enforcement, has done consecutitive articles on the AR the last several months. All these articles and not one has even come close to advocating using the Mini. There is no comparrison!

Good luck!
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 4:23:55 PM EDT
Bushmaster Firearms:
www.bushmaster.com/
Bushmaster LE site:
www.bushmaster.com/le/
Bushmaster FAQ's:
www.bushmaster.com/faqs/
Bushmaster--How accurate is a Bushmaster rifle?
www.bushmaster.com/faqs/accuracy.asp

Who uses Bushmaster?
WE DO!



Here are just some of the Agencies or Departments utilizing the Bushmaster Weapons
System...

U. S. Border Patrol
U. S. Department of Defense
U. S. Department of Energy
U. S. Department of Parks and Recreation
U. S. Customs
U. S. Drug Enforcement Agency
U. S. Marshall Service
U. S. Secret Service
All Special Forces Units, Seals, Rangers, Green Berets
Alabama Highway Patrol
California Department of Justice
California Highway Patrol
Florida Highway Patrol
Utah State Highway Patrol
Los Angeles Police Department
Los Angeles Sheriff's Department
Georgia Bureau of Investigation
City of Philadelphia
City of Salt Lake
City of San Jose Police Department

------------------------------
Hope this helps!
Link Posted: 3/4/2002 4:24:58 PM EDT
I can't even believe this is being argued by your Chief...

This should be a "no-brainer"

What's the friggin military been using for 30+ years ???

Sheesh...

Don't get me wrong, I own a Mini-14 myself...It's a sweet little rifle, but I can barely shoot 20 holes in a pie plate at 100 yards with it...

The AR's are just SO much more gun, in every aspect...

Wreck a barrel on a mini, and you may as well trash the whole gun...

AR's are just SO much easier to build, repair, and get parts for...

Damn, this is a "no-brainer"...
Link Posted: 3/8/2002 10:45:44 PM EDT
Go to Boston T. party's new edition of the gun bible, tons of facts there to back up your choices.
Link Posted: 3/11/2002 6:27:29 AM EDT
A couple of other points in favor of the AR vs. the Mini...

As the current military issue rifle, the AR has the advantage of familiarity to most military vets - less training necessary to make officers proficient.

You buy the Mini and you are locked into Ruger. You buy the AR and you have many different manufacturers and equipment people to deal with. If you have issues with one supplier, you can always switch to another. The AR-15 is "open source".
Link Posted: 3/12/2002 3:23:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By maelcum:
And now, for something completely different.

The Mini 14 is a fine patrol rifle. I do think that personal preference should be left up to the officer, and if you have a Bushmaster you'd rather use, you should be permitted to do so after qualifying. That being said, the Mini 14 is a perfectly good rifle, and there are, from where I stand, some real downsides to an AR type rifle being used by law enforcement. The concerns about militarization (or at least the appearance thereof) of law enforcement are real, and held by a large segment of the public, and the "black rifle" does not help matters. If I were equipping a small town police force, public perception would definitely be a concern.

Also, 199 is completely off base about the mini's safety mechanism/placement. Current training is also that you leave the safety of your weapon ON until you are ready to fire. The Garand-type safety of the Mini is about the most fumble-free safety type around, and with minimal training an officer can learn to take the safety off immediately before taking a shot, then re-engage it instantly after the shot is taken. The Mini's safety system is IMHO if anything superior to the stock AR15 safety, which is not ambidextrous, although that problem is easily remedied.

Both of these guns will serve the purpose fine. Many smaller law enforcement departments (and some of the larger ones) would be far better served by going to a Savage .308 bolt scout type rifle than an autoloader of any kind. The fact is there's much more call for an officer to be able to accurately place a single shot and end a threat than there is for him to put thirty rounds downrange in a few seconds :)




Well said
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