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Posted: 2/25/2002 9:34:36 PM EDT
I'm in the market for a subcompact CCW gun. I've been looking at the Beretta Tomcat .32. Anyone have any feedback on this gun, or anything else in the same size range? Thanks
Link Posted: 2/25/2002 9:44:21 PM EDT
the DA trigger on the tomcat is like 2000 pounds, but it's very sturdy and reliable. i LOVE my kel-tec p-32. i think chosing it over the tomcat was the best buy i ever made. the horror stories you may have heard about the p-32 are about problems years ago that were fixed. i fired the NAA mini .32 twice and gave it back to the guy who let me shoot it at the range. that fucking thing felt like a m-80 going off in my hand. the p32 has almost no recoil compared to the other.32s, something to do with the operating system. i would recommend it to anyone looking for a mousegun.
Link Posted: 2/25/2002 10:40:27 PM EDT
I have to go with Quietshoez, here. Hell, the P-32 doesn't weigh anything, and with a "Clip-grip" you can carry while wearing athletic shorts and a t-shirt, and noone would ever see it.
Link Posted: 2/25/2002 10:43:34 PM EDT
why not the p-11 if you are going Kel-Tec. I have one and I think the trigger pull is 4237 lbs, but it has never had a malf and it weighs pretty much whatever the ammo weighs....I can think of damn few scenerios that it is too big for....
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 2:31:30 AM EDT
For a mouse gun the P32 is the best in many aspects. It uses a locked breach compared to the others using a blow back design. This is no small feature. Recoil is less, and it doesn't rely on slide mass (as in weight) to counter act the force generated. I like Beretta's but I know of a few Tomcats that were exchanged for P32's. The KT also disappears in front pants pockect (skip the pocket clip) and get an Uncle Mikes pocket holster. Carrying the P32 is second nature like carrying your wallet in no time at all. 24/7 little gun beats no gun like I'm sure you already know.
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 3:18:51 AM EDT
I carried a High Standard 22may derringer for years, then made the switch to the Bretta 25acp only until they brought out the tomcat. Now I carry a 32 Seecamp. I should have gone with it years ago. I now have at least 10 friend who carry them. We think best made, although a little pricey. We all got them for $310 each, but whty can command a lot more.
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 8:56:22 AM EDT
I'll second the Seecamp.32. I've been carrying one in a wallet-type holster in my back pocket for a couple of years now. I paid alot more than ARgon did for his but I probably won't be thinking about that if I ever need to use it. There is a rumor that a .380 version is in the works if you want more punch. The Seecamp .32's are a little hard to find but check it out if you get the chance. I'm very happy with mine.
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 9:07:45 AM EDT
I have the Beretta and realy like it, but if you get one don't get the basic Tomcat. They made a version called the Alley Cat, but they now use a different term for it. It has a slightly larger safety lever and it uses the Ashley Outdoors Big Dot tritium sights. The rear sight is a very shallow V, like the Express Sights on those expensive double rifles they use for dangerous game in Africa, and the front is a very large tritium sight that is nearly 1/4" in diameter. Perfect for the kind of up close and personal stuff that such a pistol would be used for.

I've handled the P32 and it is also a very good piece. You won't go wrong with either one.
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 9:27:22 AM EDT
I worked for a gun store on Long Island, NY for 3 years and I can tell you that Seecamp's were ordered by the case, while Berreta's little crap tomcat was ordered one at a time. I absolutely hated the tomcat and the way it performed, while I loved the seecamp 32. I wouldn't own a 32, but I did like the way the seecamp performed both accurately and flawlessly. Go with the Seecamp, you won't regret it and your gun store would probably recommend it as well.
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 1:14:28 PM EDT
Yes, there is a 380 out and I keep getting a list of hold each three months when I order in the 32's. Hope to get one this year (it has been a two year wait). Until then I will continue to carry the 32.
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 3:10:14 PM EDT
Thanks for all your help guys. I was just about sold on the Seecamp .32 (and still might be) when the idea of the 380 came up. As ARgon implied, who knows when they'll be available. But, North American Arms just came out with the Guardian .380. Same size as all the guns discussed. Any experience with these? Should I go with it, the Seecamp .32, or wait for the Seecamp .380. Right now I have a North American .22lr single action pocket revolver. It's a cool gun, fun, etc, but completely unacceptable to depend my life on.
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 4:23:28 PM EDT
I picked up a NAA guardian .380 two weeks ago and had it out at the range this past weekend. I called the factory before I went out with it and asked about any previous "problems" with the gun becasue I had an extremely low serial number. I was informed that any gun under #1300 (around there I think), could have problems with the magazines issued. Gun shot fine for 40 rds and then low and behold I had numerous misfeeds (about 30 in 100). I was informed before hand that if this were the case, I should send the magazines back (which is what I'm doing tommorow, and "newer" corrected magazines will be shipped back to me which I was informed would solve the problem 100%).
Other than that problem (yes, a serious one), I really liked the gun. Groups at 7 yds were well under two inches (although the issue sights are not that great in my opinion, and not good for fast target aquasition). Out to 15 yrds I was hitting around 3 1/2" which for the size of this gun is adequate for me. It's stainless steel and has some heft, but the with the .380 round, helps with the recoil (really didn't bother me). The factory offers some nice custom features at reasonable prices (again, in my opinion). I'm sending the gun back to get the ashley big dot tritium sights put on for $120 (considering ashely sells these for $99, the installed price is very reasonable). With the newer sights, I think it will be an outstanding subcompact. By the way, kahr does make the frame for the gaurdian, which is a plus to me, because I was actually looking at the kahrs before I picked up the gaurdian. NAA offers some nice pocket holsters as well, and with the weight of the gun (although not heavy, but nowhere as light as the kel-tec) I KNOW the firearm is on my person. Keep in mind that with the added sights though, you're probably paying about twice as much than the kel-tec. By the way, as others have stated, the triger pull is rated at 10lbs I think, and does feel heavy (double action only) Hope this helps.
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 4:36:00 PM EDT
Im not too fond of the .32 tomcat BUT my heart does belong to Beretta(i carry the Cougar 8000)
And if you are looking for great accuracy(for a sub compact pistol) and your in the market for a Beretta i would check out the Beretta 9000 DO NOT confuse it with the 8000,it is a really nice sub compact!

Come for my guns..........I'll give ya the bullets first!!
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 4:57:31 PM EDT
Seecamp .32 with custom serial number!
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 5:27:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 6:32:43 PM EDT
I tried the Tomcat when they first came out,didn't like the fact that the frames were cracking.Then went to the Seecamp(very nice gun)but found it was ammo sensitive,didn't like a lot of the hollow points I did. Next I tried the Guardian,well lets just say I've quit looking.
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 6:50:51 PM EDT
Another vote for the Kel Tec P32.
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 6:56:55 PM EDT
The Seecamp 380 has a life of about 750 rounds, you can check this out, but for now I would corner a 32 Seecamp if you really need that small of a gun. Mine is my always gun. Rides on me at all times. Yeah, many other guns are great but I have my 32 when I many times don't have my 45!
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 7:05:33 PM EDT

the horror stories you may have heard about the p-32 are about problems years ago that were fixed.

While I like the P-32 (have one myself), the above statement simply isn't true. Kel-Tec is still shipping products that are rough (need a F&B and have a high infant failure rate) and are still providing poor service. They might be polite and pleasant on the phone, but they simply don't get the job done. According to one well-known Kel-Tec gunsmith, my P-32 needs a new barrel and frame. Kel-Tec refused to replace them, nor did they test fire it as they promised the last time I sent it back. The pistol was manufactured 13 months ago, and bought less than a year ago. It's been almost 10 months since I've fired more than a magazine worth without having a jam or the assembly pin start to fall-out. While the P-32 is so light and thin that it is worth some effort to make it work, I don't think it's right to say that all of those problems are in the past. They are not. quietshoez, I agree with your recommendation, but I have to disagree with that one statement.

Some pictures of it at users.upstate.net/zoom/P-32/ as proof.z
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 7:25:31 PM EDT
Seems like you have a lot of people recommending .32's and .380's...maybe that's a good thing. Then again, maybe it isn't.

Have you really tried carrying a "midsize?" You know, something larger than a traditional backup, but smaller than a full size service pistol? Something in a larger bore (as in 9mm, 40, 45)?

Many people will tell you that a gun carried is better than a gun left at home - and there's no arguing that point. To carry a gun just because it's REALLY small, rather than to carry what you're capable of carrying, is the real shame.

I have many friends that are over 6'-3", 220 pounds, and most of them say that they have to just HAVE to have a tiny carry gun - that they can't conceal anything larger.

On the other hand, I have a friend who's close to 5'-6", and about 120 pounds soaking wet, and carries a Colt Combat Commander, in .45 ACP, DAILY! Is he a cop, or some kind of security guy? Nope - just the average, everyday guy that works from 8 to 5, in an office, and has never once had a problem with "printing" or anything of the like. He also doesn't have any complaints about the gun not being comfortable, or my favorite - the "it's just too heavy to carry all day" argument.

I've carried extensively over the last few years, and the one thing I've learned is that a person can carry the finest pistol made, but unless that person's wearing a GOOD holster, with a proper gun belt, they're just wasting their time - these well-intentioned people get frustrated and immediately start looking for what some people refer to as "mouseguns."

Me? Heck, I'm not a big guy (just shy of six feet), but I've carried everything, and have probably spent a couple of thousand dollars on leather. I've carried with ankle rigs (Glock 27), shoulder rigs (Beretta 92FS), and SigSauer P220's in SOB rigs. All have positives and negatives, but, after trial and error, I've found that my HK USP Compact .45 fits like a glove on me in a Galco Conceable, with an offside mage pouch and a Kramer gun belt. I can wear it all day, every day with a suit jacket on, or even with shorts and an untucked "polo" shirt during the summer while on a cookout (or, come to think of it, even a thicker t-shirt).

So in conclusion, do yourself a favor - go to a good gun shop, try on a holster from a reputable company, with a real gun belt, and discover how comfortable it can be, carrying a larger bore weapon.
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 9:32:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/26/2002 9:34:06 PM EDT by Crookshanks]
How about a 9mm or S&W.40 in a gun that measures 4 inches high, 5.3 inches long, with a slide width of .90 inches?



www.kahr.com
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 10:10:01 PM EDT

How about a 9mm or S&W.40 in a gun that measures 4 inches high, 5.3 inches long, with a slide width of .90 inches?

Which is 15% higher, 4% longer, and 20% wider than a Kel-Tec P-32. It's also 320% of the weight of the P-32 (21.1oz. vs 6.6)! I don't know the usual street price on the MK9, but the only one I've seen for sale was $625 versus $225 for the Kel-Tec. That's 2.8 times the price of the Kel-Tec. The Kahr is bigger, thicker (the critical dimension, in my opinion), much heavier, much more expensive, and holds one less, albeit more powerful, round in the mag.

I guess this just shows how different people are. Some are willing to pay more upfront for something that works. Some are willing to carry something much heavier for a little more firepower. Some people are willing to take a chance on something cheaper, because they know even after having to send it back 2+ times, they'll still come-out ahead.z
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 12:21:06 AM EDT
The new Kahr PM9 is 14oz.
Hey Zoom, how much is 4% of 5.3 inches?
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 12:31:39 AM EDT
I'd recommend looking into the Heckler & Koch P7M8.

It's expensive, but I believe it's well worth the price.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 6:53:55 AM EDT
I posted a range report on the Tomcat I just picked up last week. It is located in the Handguns forum. I am really impressed with the accuracy. The trigger is heavy, but still manageable. I am very happy with my Beretta Tomcat!
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 9:55:29 AM EDT
Get a Sig 239 in 9mm. It's small enough to drop in the pocket of almost any pair of shorts. It's very thin, and holds 8 rds of 9mm as apposed to however many rounds of .32 or .380 the others carry.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 10:02:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By quietshoez:
the DA trigger on the tomcat is like 2000 pounds, but it's very sturdy and reliable. i LOVE my kel-tec p-32. i think chosing it over the tomcat was the best buy i ever made. the horror stories you may have heard about the p-32 are about problems years ago that were fixed. i fired the NAA mini .32 twice and gave it back to the guy who let me shoot it at the range. that fucking thing felt like a m-80 going off in my hand. the p32 has almost no recoil compared to the other.32s, something to do with the operating system. i would recommend it to anyone looking for a mousegun.



I've had my P32 for just about a year, and the horror stories continue to happen. However, they can be fixed and the gun can be made into a reliable sidearm:

1st Gun - Deep scrapes in hard chromed slide. The pistol would only fire about 1 in 5 S&B rounds, while leaving deep firing pin marks in the primer. I sent the entire upper back, and got a new one within a week.

2nd Gun - I did the fluff n' buff like KTOG.org specified, and this baby rocks. I "gangsta styled" a fast 200 rounds through it without problems. Although, I probably won't use S&B ammo in it anymore. Winchester USA works fine, and I carry Federal HSs.

This is a great concealed carry gun. Without it, there are A LOT of places I wouldn't carry.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 10:09:09 AM EDT
I'm surprised no one has mentioned any of the Colt .380s. I carry a Mustang PocketLite as my minimal gun. Loaded, its under a pound, decent trigger pull. DAO fans, look for a Colt Pony. Those that love everything about the 1911, get the Government Model .380.

I've heard good things about the NAA in .32 and .380, but they do weigh more. When your pocket is the common place to carry a gun, weight is the enemy.

I saw one vote for the P7M8, and I love mine, but I carry a really light gun when I can't adequately conceal the P7. The P7 is a wonderful service pistol, but it weighs too much for the deep concealment role, I think.
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