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Posted: 2/17/2002 8:52:14 AM EDT
I'm seeking the forums help in providing me some information towards a decision!

I currently use a HK-USP-C .45

I am debating selling my Compact USP .45 and moving on to a carry gun that does not have a polomer frame. I love my HK, so whatever I move to, is going to have to be a time tested design, and have a level of reliability that has been proven.

I am seeking the forums opinions and further idea's for .45's I should concider in the next week while I'm shopping around getting a feel for what is out there. Again, I am leaning away from polomer framed pistol's,

So far:

Sig P220 (might be a little large)
Sig P245 (Compact Version of the P220)
Kimber Compact .45
Para-Ord P12
Springfield Armory (one of their compact series)

Any opinions or first hand experience is much appreicated!

-FS
Link Posted: 2/17/2002 9:23:31 AM EDT
P-12, I have the limited and it is great accurate very reliable even with my home made crappy reloads and lots of fire power, 12+1 rounds of golden sabers.
Link Posted: 2/17/2002 9:35:28 AM EDT
Got four out of your five.

The one I pick up on the way out of the house is almost always the P-12.

I would recommend some changes before carrying it (night sights, steel mag release button, S&A steel mainspring housing/mag guide, function check with your carry ammo)

Do you have any previous experience with the 1911 series of weapons?
Link Posted: 2/17/2002 10:23:46 AM EDT
I bought a Kimber Pro-Carry a few moths ago and am very happy with it, I also carry a Full size Colt 1991A1 quite a bit, but with it you know there's a chunk of steel on your hip. All of choices look pretty good to me, and any of them should serve you well. The Kimber has an alloy frame and is much lighter than some of the steel frame models.
Link Posted: 2/17/2002 10:28:23 AM EDT
I was considering either the Para C7.45 or C6.45 LDA. Look like nice weapons but haven't had a chance to shoot one yet. Does anyone here have one?
Bill3508
Link Posted: 2/17/2002 4:41:48 PM EDT
Picked up a kimber ultra eclispe last year and LOVE it. Carry it in a Milt Sparks versa max holster and I can forget it's there. I can say without a doubt that this kimber has outshot any other handgun I've own (including the sig 220) So far, not one single malfunction with this gun.
Link Posted: 2/17/2002 4:47:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/17/2002 5:09:22 PM EDT
All 5 of your choices are steps down from your usp45c. My .02
Link Posted: 2/17/2002 5:46:14 PM EDT
I agree with GUNNY 51 right above me.....a step down. The USP's are one sweet weapons platform. Light weight, accurate, reliable, just to name a few attributes.
I carry a SIG 229 in forty as my off duty/plain clothes weapon. THEN I shot a few USP compacts and guess what? I now have a USP compact in .357 SIG as my new carry gun. At 4.4 ounces lighter than a comparable 229 they do carry a bit easier.
If you decide you want another carry gun, keep the HK and experiment. I'll bet you come back to the HK,

FN
Link Posted: 2/17/2002 7:03:47 PM EDT
Thanks for all the great replies. I think I am going to keep my HK, and take my time deciding between the rest of my options.

My HK has been to many places with me to just abandon quite yet...

-FS
Link Posted: 2/20/2002 9:41:50 PM EDT
Dude, I think that you'd be making a real mistake to sell your HK USP Compact. Big mistake. I used to be, and still am to some extent, a serious Glock man. But, on a whim I bought an HK USP Compact in .45 and man can that gun ever shoot. Awesome. You're gonna have real trouble beating it. It a shooter, it's ergonomically awesome. Stay away from all those 1911's; they just don't work reliably unless your willing to put at least three grand into one to make it reliable. The sig, I dunno about, maybe; but it's still on par with the HK. Why not keep the HK and buy a Sig??????
Link Posted: 2/21/2002 3:21:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sitting Bull:
Dude, I think that you'd be making a real mistake to sell your HK USP Compact. Big mistake. I used to be, and still am to some extent, a serious Glock man. But, on a whim I bought an HK USP Compact in .45 and man can that gun ever shoot. Awesome. You're gonna have real trouble beating it. It a shooter, it's ergonomically awesome. Stay away from all those 1911's; they just don't work reliably unless your willing to put at least three grand into one to make it reliable. The sig, I dunno about, maybe; but it's still on par with the HK. Why not keep the HK and buy a Sig??????



SB:

I have a half dozen 1911s and variants. All are perfectly reliable with carry ammo, and none of them cost $3000. In fact, I only have one with more than $1000 in it. There is only one gunsmith I know of who charges over $3000 for a 1911.

What is your basis of experience for your statement?
Link Posted: 2/21/2002 3:50:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/21/2002 3:53:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SF:

Originally Posted By Sitting Bull:
Dude, I think that you'd be making a real mistake to sell your HK USP Compact. Big mistake. I used to be, and still am to some extent, a serious Glock man. But, on a whim I bought an HK USP Compact in .45 and man can that gun ever shoot. Awesome. You're gonna have real trouble beating it. It a shooter, it's ergonomically awesome. Stay away from all those 1911's; they just don't work reliably unless your willing to put at least three grand into one to make it reliable. The sig, I dunno about, maybe; but it's still on par with the HK. Why not keep the HK and buy a Sig??????



SB:

I have a half dozen 1911s and variants. All are perfectly reliable with carry ammo, and none of them cost $3000. In fact, I only have one with more than $1000 in it. There is only one gunsmith I know of who charges over $3000 for a 1911.

What is your basis of experience for your statement?



I agree with SF. While I only have one 1911 it has been very reliable.

Now having said that, i'm awaiting a USP 45f. After visiting an HK board the only advantage I see to selling it would be due to it being a little larger than some other "compact" handguns.

I think, given the USP's performance, you'll be sorry if you sell it.
Link Posted: 2/21/2002 4:05:26 PM EDT
Sitting bull what kind of 1911 did you shoot? a llama?

this might be hard to believe but before there was Hk's there was a few 1911's built and used in combat and they were quite reliable.

Know your history before you open your mouth!
Link Posted: 2/21/2002 4:12:08 PM EDT
Damn kids these days if it isn't plastic and looks like it came from the future then they think it isn't worth a damn.
Link Posted: 2/21/2002 4:30:37 PM EDT
To Everyone,

My negative experiences with 1911's comes from my experience taking Defensive Handgun 1 at Thunder Ranch a while back. The way that the firing line was set up (chance occurence) was that one half (the right side) was made up of all 1911's, and the other half was made up largely of Glocks, with some Beretta's and HK's. Throughout the entire week the instructors were lightly laughing at the 1911 half of the firing line, as all of the swearing (which would occur with jams and malfunctions) was coming from that half of the firing line. The other Glock half of the firing line just kept shooting.
My other thought is that that FBI 1911 gun, from a few years back (I don't recall who finally won the contract- Springfield I think) retailed for somewhere in the three thousand dollar range. Obviously the FBI knew what it would take to make a 1911 reliable - and that turned out to be about three grand worth of work (yes I know the FBI paid less for it then the retail price for the private sector).

To everybody; has anybody ever taken a week long course at either Thunder Ranch or the equivalent and had perfect reliability? During the 2,500 rounds that I shot over a week with my Glock 23 I had two jams. One was an operator error when I did not push the magazine in far enough, and the other one I couldn't attribute to anything which I did wrong; hence I blamed the gun. One jam in 2,500 rounds; I'm not sure any $1000 1911 could equal that kind of reliability.
Link Posted: 2/21/2002 7:03:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/21/2002 7:18:50 PM EDT by SF]
SB:

That is your opinion, and you are certainly entitled to it. I have been to a few schools too, and have an informed opinion as well.

Are you basing your entire opinion on the one week at TR?

How many companies manufacture Glock, Beretta, and H&K? One each. All machining done to single set of specs, controlled by a single company. Anyone building these guns or assembling them from parts/components outside the factory? Few, if any.

How many companies make 1911s? At least two dozen. All with minor differences in tolerances. Anyone building these guns or assembling them from parts/components outside the factory? More than I can count. Are they all competent? No.

How many companies make hammers, sears, triggers, barrels, slides, frames for the Glock, Beretta, and H&K? Maybe a couple. Mags? Maybe four.

How many companies make hammers, sears, triggers, barrels, slides, frames for the 1911? US or foreign? Maybe a couple of hundred? Mags? Who knows?

How many years have the Glock, Beretta, and H&K models you saw been in production? 25 or less.

How many years and vintages of 1911 parts are out there? At least 90 years worth.

lots of tolerances and variables here....

Many people of varying competency pay gunsmiths of equally varying competency to assemble Frankenguns based loosely upon the 1911 design, buy the cheapest mags and ammo available, and then head out to get some training, convinced that they are pistoleros because of their gear.

Much less likely with a Glock, Beretta, or H&K since most are factory guns, with perhaps light mods, designed for JHP ammo, with factory mags.

To expand on your point, at TR, Clint Smith can carry any pistol he wants. What does he carry? A well made, well assembled, well tested 1911 with reliable ammo. His pistol clone is available for far less than $3000.

The FBI HRT gun was custom built on a Para Ordnance frame by Les Baer, as I recall, and it was expensive. Because it was for a low number run government contract and collectors would pay the price to have THE HRT pistol.

The latest FBI 1911 is built by Springfield, and the same comments apply. Want THE FBI pistol, as a civilian? Pay through the nose for it.

Reliability? In the original 1911 test, the Browning designed Colt fired 6000 rounds in a variety of conditions with ZERO failures or malfunctions. Several stories on this very board about KBs with Glocks. Not stoppages, catastrophic failures. Beretta M-9s in military service breaking slides and shearing locking lugs in far less than the 2500 rounds you mentioned. Crates of bad barrels and slides. A number of H&K owners going to other makes as well. All factory built weapons. Good and bad with all guns, like people.

Bottom line: A quality 1911, built by a competent smith (for way less than $3000) of solid parts, well maintained and firing quality ammo from good mags should be as reliable as your Glock and will posess a much better trigger. I bet my life on my weapon, and if I could pick just one to keep, it would be a 1911. Do I feel undergunned? I don't think so.

Just my .02, YMMV! (Edited to save myself before the spelling and grammar Nazis get meeeeeee....)
Link Posted: 2/21/2002 7:38:54 PM EDT
That said, I'd go for the Springfield Compact w/Lightweight frame.
Link Posted: 2/21/2002 8:16:48 PM EDT
I own Glock 30. Its a nice pistol but I hate the grip and I hate the sights on it. If I were to purchase a CCW today, I would definetely get the 1911 or HK USP. Although my experiences with these guns are limited to rental guns, I believe they would not let me down when my life depended on them. Problem with compact gun is that accuracy starts to deteriorate rather rapidly compared to full size guns. I guess the shorter barrel on compact guns heat up more quickly than full sized counterparts. This might be the cause for deteriorating accuracy. But for self defense situation, you probably won't be shooting more than 10 rounds (1 clip) so I guess getting a compact won't matter much. I know this sounds stupid but have you considered revolver? You don't have to worry about magazine springs going bad and revolver is proven design. You can buy a tiny .38 revolver and you won't even realize that you are packing.
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 4:11:04 PM EDT
Single stack, alloy frame, short barrel, Heine or Novak Tritum sights, thin grips, skateboard tape, have good pistolsmith check out recoil guide and bushing, trigger and safety mechanisms.

See what fits your hand, some of the short frames are hard to hang onto with big hands.

I've one of the old CZ's in 9 that I really like but don't know what they have in short and light.

I usually try to run 3 or 4 hundred rounds of handloads through a new one and then try out several commercial ones to check out accuracy and function. Then at least 100 rounds of what gun likes, and then have sight work done.

Link Posted: 2/22/2002 4:31:18 PM EDT
I traded for a colt defender in 45ACP about three weeks ago. Light weight,accurate as can be,and thus far with 200 rounds or so downrange no malfunctions to speak of. Anyone else around with any experence with a defender?
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