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Posted: 2/13/2002 4:43:00 PM EDT
Last December I followed up on an AD on GunsAmerica.com, Collector Rifle & Ammo was advertising M4's with AK breaks, special build guns at special build prices. I ordered a pair, paid my FFL to send his number to Charlie in New York. What my FFL received was standard M4's. We called Collector Rifle and Ammo at which his son Scott told us Bushmaster did not make that gun. Later Charlie admitted Bushmaster did but he did not have them, and asked us to send the guns back. He would not accept COD, threatened us with the ATF if we did not pay the return shipping - but assured he would refund. I have been calling every week since and gotten a lot of varying reasons why he won't refund the shipping.

I don't know if anyone on this board has run across a dealer like this. If anyone has any advice on how you can purchase firearms across the internet without getting ripped-off I think it would benifit the entire community. GunsAmerica has contacted Collector Rifle and Ammo about this, but it looks like I lost my money.

It is ashame a dealer like this casts a shadow on the internet and our sport, but there must be a way to order these babies across the internet, and not get to your FFL to discover you have been ripped-off.

In advance - thanks for the advice. -Ken offshore123@home.com
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 4:52:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2002 4:53:11 PM EDT by djk]
Do I have this right? You sent the rifles back and they had your money too? Or are you just out the shipping?

I always try to use credit card or paypal with credit card. I'm willing to pay an extra 3% for the piece of mind.
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 5:06:16 PM EDT
I don't buy firearms from individuals unless it's a face to face. I frequently buy firearms from dealers using internet/catalogue, and I try to keep it simple. I will pay for the firearm directly, with a credit card, and then have them ship to my local FFL. I do business with several dealers who will send a copy of their FFL to anyone I want, and I will pay them a transfer fee. You have personal recourse with a CC; if they won't accept my paymant, then I'll take my business elsewhere.
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 5:30:20 PM EDT
I've purchased 50-60 firearms from individuals during the past year. Never a problem. Ask for references, go to boards like the subguns board of inquiry and ask for experiences with that particular seller and if all comes back ok chances are you won't have a problem.
Link Posted: 2/14/2002 2:01:11 AM EDT
Collector Rifle & Ammo is 5 minutes from my home. I deal with Charlie, Scott his son and his wife on a regular basics. Charlie can be and usually is grumpy and cocky. His son Scott and wife are the nicest people you will ever meet.
Charlie runs the show and most of his shop is a sh*thole with junk all over the floor. If there are 2 people in the store it is literally packed. You can't move around without tripping over anything.
He does have the best prices on guns. Pre-banned and post. Ammo and gun transfers he will take you for a ride on.
I must of spent 10K in the last two years on guns alone from him.
He charged me NYS sales tax on a transfer from FL, plus $120 for the transfer itself last year.
He claimed he must charge tax and everyone who does not collect tax from an out of state sale is committing a crime.
The way he formulates the transfer fee comes straight out of his ass. Found this out after the gun arrived in his store. He had me pinned at that point. Never again have I or will I do a transfer with him.
What he does with guns he has out on display on floor racks is he will make guns from NIB part kits and sell them as factory new.
This doesn’t make it a crime being that they are new, but misleads people that the gun being sold as new as it came from the factory.
Link Posted: 2/14/2002 2:47:29 AM EDT
Are we talking "Charlie Red" and "Hopewell Junction" here ? This is where i purchased my bushmaster and 870 from, but in person . i agree with flashbang 100 % he is a very cocky SOB, great prices on new guns, and sometimes he has an ammo sale, otherwise he can be high.

Hey flashbang we should get go shooting some time, I'm down hyde park way.
Link Posted: 2/14/2002 3:07:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rogerb:
Are we talking "Charlie Red" and "Hopewell Junction" here ? This is where i purchased my bushmaster and 870 from, but in person . i agree with flashbang 100 % he is a very cocky SOB, great prices on new guns, and sometimes he has an ammo sale, otherwise he can be high.

Hey flashbang we should get go shooting some time, I'm down hyde park way.



I also bought my M4 Bushmaster from him. I had no problems in person. I see him setup at the shows all the time. He does have good prices. I only bought from him as when I was shopping it was around 9/11 and not many dealers in the area had stock. Those that did were charging and arm and a leg.

Roger where do you shoot? I am in Westchester but I drive up to knights range to shoot in Goshen. It gets expensive but I never have any problems there and when I feel like doing rapid they never hassle me.
Link Posted: 2/14/2002 3:28:40 AM EDT
Presently i shoot nowhere, had a friend who had 10 acres , he has recently sold them. I'm checking out a few clubs now, the one in fishkill is a good deal, but its a bit of a haul for me. till then its just bow and pellet gun on my property !
Link Posted: 2/14/2002 3:38:30 AM EDT
taelil

GEORGE KNIGHTS GUN RANGE IS NOW CLOSED!!
It is sad but the bank has taken over the range. Anyone with guns at the range or deposits will still be able to get their guns. The Pistol Department is pushing through all amendments and applications as much as they can so that people can get their guns as soon as possible. If you are unable to pick up your gun now, the guns will be transferred to another local dealer where you can pick them up.
UPDATE: If you are still looking for your gun someone might be at the range the week of 2/11/02 on and off. Call the range first. All guns that are left will be transferred to local FFL. Warwick Savings Bank is in charge and the POC is Eddie Alvarez at 695-2970 ext 222. Everyone who I have spoken to has said that Warwick Savings Bank is doing the best that they can do to help anyone who had a gun at Knights.

www.ocshooters.com


Originally Posted By rogerb:
Are we talking "Charlie Red" and "Hopewell Junction" here ?


Thats him.
I'm in Fishkill and so is my range SDPSA

Link Posted: 2/14/2002 3:53:44 AM EDT
Well Shit! I was just up there about 2 weeks ago and was planning on going up tommorow! That really sucks. Good thing I had no purchases up there, I only used the range. I am in the process of working out availability for me to shoot at Camp Smith on my own time. If that is not enough I need to find somewhere to shoot. I had heard mention of a club in Fishkill but never persued it. You have a web site with info on pricing/availability/range info? If not can you pass me some info on it here? Right now since I am not working I like to go during the weekday is that possible at your range? Is the range outdoors, fixed distance? Any info would be appreciated. Thanks for the heads up.
Link Posted: 2/14/2002 4:06:34 AM EDT
taelil, since you are in the goshen area, aren't there some large public access areas over by west point (don't you wish the range at the point was open to us poor taxpayers who paid for it) ?

i know the place Flash, used to go there for picnics when i worked at IBM fishkill, at IBM pok now. It's a great site , but it's an hour's plus drive for me , there are 2 hunt clubs closer. I hate to join then as i always hunt behind my house (bow) and am not looking for land access, which is what most of these clubs are all about.
don't they allow you to bring paying guests to Fishkill, I have seen several people here mention it, we could all get togather some day (WHEN IT WARMS UP)
Link Posted: 2/14/2002 4:07:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By taelil:
Well Shit! I was just up there about 2 weeks ago and was planning on going up tommorow! That really sucks. Good thing I had no purchases up there, I only used the range. I am in the process of working out availability for me to shoot at Camp Smith on my own time. If that is not enough I need to find somewhere to shoot. I had heard mention of a club in Fishkill but never persued it. You have a web site with info on pricing/availability/range info? If not can you pass me some info on it here? Right now since I am not working I like to go during the weekday is that possible at your range? Is the range outdoors, fixed distance? Any info would be appreciated. Thanks for the heads up.



www.geocities.com/sdpsa

100yd. outdoor range. 50' indoor pistol/22lr. range. trap range.
open inside 9am-10pm everyday
outside varys with seasons, but basicly 9am- sunset, except weekends and holidays, which it opens at 10am.
200/year to shooters only, nothing else required.
150/year for full club members which includes 18hrs./year work time, and use of hunting properties.
Link Posted: 2/14/2002 4:11:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rogerb:

don't they allow you to bring paying guests to Fishkill, I have seen several people here mention it, we could all get togather some day (WHEN IT WARMS UP)


Yes, I can bring as many guest I want and it's free for all. If it gets crowded [never does, has 10 stations]and a member wants to shoot a guest must yeild to the mwmber. That's the only rule on guest.
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 4:15:47 AM EDT
Hey guys sorry to hijack this thread!

Flashbang can you email me taelil@hotmail.com. I might not be able to make the meeting which I believe is next week, as I have a 3 day weekend drill coming up next week. I might want to take a look at the $200 memebership, I spent that in a few trips up to the range alone. That is not a bad deal I would like to check out the range sometime. I have a feeling this is the club my uncle belonged to a while back. I remember trap shooting up in Fishkill about 12 years ago, and also attending a huge outdoor barbecue or something.
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 7:04:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By vicg1:
I've purchased 50-60 firearms from individuals during the past year. Never a problem. Ask for references, go to boards like the subguns board of inquiry and ask for experiences with that particular seller and if all comes back ok chances are you won't have a problem.



I've bought and sold about the same number of guns in the last year - dealers and individuals.

I've had problems probably totaling $500.00 and that entire amount came from three different H&K purchases with three different H&K owners.

My deal is I want to speak with the seller 'on the phone' with the gun in either his hand or lap.

Actually the vast majority of people are honest.
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 9:07:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 9:35:09 AM EDT
Ilove2shoot,

Let me guess, the little prick was from Garland or Dallas, Texas, right?

There are several threads over on on the Subguns.com Board of Inquiry about him.

He goes by several names--
ConcealedPistol, Quicksale, etc.
Has lots of different free e-mails--killyouquietly@hotmail.com (all the same type of e-mail address).
He has used several names--Jason Antonopolus, John Been, Jason A., Adrian Cabrera, A. Munoz, etc.

Over here, he was trying to swap a Python for a Beta-C mag a while back.

He was DUMB enough to use a real FFL at one point, and got someone's HK 91 and $$ in exchange for a "Vaporware" HK 94 that never existed. The ATF and Postal Inspectors have all of his information. He also has lots of pissed off gun owners (including several taken for $thousands) looking for him. I seem to recall him trying to use a Fake FFL address.

He typically uses Mailboxes, Etc. addresses, but doesn't specify them as such--

This is a Cut an Past from Subguns.com, along with the e-mail of the ATF agent looking into the matter:

Known address:
ATTN: JASON
#292
381 Casa Linda Plaza
Garland,TX 75218
killuquiely@hotmail.com

killuquietlypunk@aol.com

APT#292
381 CASA LINDA
DALLAS, TX 75218

J.A
STE 292
381 Casa Linda
Dallas, TX 75218
email was gunmen4u@aol.com

PBM #385
1920 Abrans Parkway
Dallas TX, 75214-6218
Cell #-withheld
Email-"john Been" targettest@yahoo.com
sign email as "josh j."

Joe's
#292
381Casa Linda Plaza
Dallas,Tx 75218

Subj: WTT MAGS 4 MAGS
Date: 10/19/01
To: loadedsigma@aol.com

J.A. (LMK) LOUIS MUNOZ.
NAME MATCHED ADDRESS AT

5427 LINDSLEY AVE
DALLAS, TX 75223
(214)827-6039

PROBABLE WORK ADDRESS

381 CASA LINDA PLZ
SUITE/APT #292
DALLAS, TX 75218

CELL: 214-862-1340

USED FFL ADDRESS

PO BOX 8276
DALLAS, TX 75218

NEW Joe Alberto
5427 Lindsley Ave.
Mesquite. TX 75223-1852
214-458-6933
email Concealedpistol@aol.com

contact info
If it's the same addresses that I posted.

In an effort to work this case, would each of you please e-mail me with your
names, addresses and telephone numbers so that an investigator may contact
you, should it be necessary.

Thank you,
Kathleen Quiroz
Inspector, BATF
Tucson, AZ
(520) 670-4804
kjquiroz@phoe.atf.treas.gov


Link Posted: 2/15/2002 9:51:38 AM EDT
If its the same dirtbag, he took a buddy of mine for $1100 for a SP1 that he never delivered that was posted in the Equipment Exchange here.
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 10:46:28 AM EDT
ILove2Shoot

Your spider sense was on target, apparently the guy ripped off a couple of people and there is an active BATF investigation on the guy, its on another recent thread, I forgot the title.
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 12:51:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2002 6:35:50 PM EDT by ILove2Shoot]
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 1:12:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2002 1:13:47 PM EDT by Robertesq1]
Doug:

You should, in an abundance of caution, take your serial Nos out of your post.
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 6:38:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 9:27:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Robertesq1:
Doug:

You should, in an abundance of caution, take your serial Nos out of your post.



Why ?? No flame. Just Why ?
Link Posted: 2/15/2002 11:53:52 PM EDT
Offshore, if you sent the rifles back and he still has your money, call the Feds and ATF. Possible pressure on losing his FFL or jail for theft, fraud, whatever, may loosen up the funds.
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 7:14:18 AM EDT

He claimed he must charge tax and everyone who does not collect tax from an out of state sale is committing a crime.


Bull****. It is the buyer's responsibility to turn in the purchase on their own state taxes at the end of the year, just like if you order something from out of state that is shipped directly to your home. I have done various transfers and have never been asked to pay sales tax. The guy you deal with is probably pocketing the "sales tax". I voluntarily pay my FFL $20 for transfers; he has never asked for a fee.
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