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Posted: 2/10/2002 7:54:04 AM EDT
If you Could invent a new Caliber, What would it be?

A Co-worker Of mine suggests a .600/.17
That is A .600nitro case witha .17 Diameter Bullet. available with a 17gr bullet or a 25 grain bullet

I Personally Would Rather Have a .600/30
I think we could get the Barnes 250grain .308caliber bullet moving about 7835fps
giving it 34085 Foot pounds of Energy.
Talk about shooting a Osama from a long way off, Rangefinders/drop compensators would be measured in miles not yards!

I really don't see the need for a new caliber, we've got so many anyway!
-Chuck
Link Posted: 2/10/2002 8:22:05 AM EDT
One that can be shot in all situations efectivly. Cost less than 22lr ammo so you could shoot sun up to sun down. PS I know it aint happening, But just imagine!
Link Posted: 2/10/2002 8:30:56 AM EDT
.450 Marlin case necked down to: .30; .33; and .375 for flat nose bullets in a tube fed lever-action rifle.
Pointed bullets could be used in single-shot firearms or be fed singly into the lever-action.
Link Posted: 2/10/2002 8:32:41 AM EDT
Straight case 6mm. Perhaps even rimfire. Something cheap to shoot a 80gr slug at 1800 to 200 fps from a 16 inch barrel.
Link Posted: 2/10/2002 9:04:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CHUCK6419:

I Personally Would Rather Have a .600/30
I think we could get the Barnes 250grain .308caliber bullet moving about 7835fps
giving it 34085 Foot pounds of Energy.



And the barrel would last for what? One or two shots?

Besides, I think you did you calculations wrong. There's already a 338/50 Talbot. It's a 50 BMG case necked down to .338. With a 250gr SP, the velocity is only 3700fps, and that's with 170gr of powder behind it!
Link Posted: 2/10/2002 9:53:20 AM EDT
30 carbine with some ass behind it.....and a reciever to take it..........
Link Posted: 2/10/2002 11:33:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/10/2002 12:32:28 PM EDT
Yep.....that`s about it.....a lengthened 10.....very efficient indeed........
Link Posted: 2/10/2002 1:06:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
.264 Boston, as discussed in Boston's Gun Bible

Basically, a 130gr 6.5mm bullet in what is essentially a lengthened 10mm case. Size and weight-wise, it would fall between .308 and .223, but would be a true 1,000 yard caliber that is VERY efficient, accurate, controllable on full auto, and *ballistically effective at long range*. In other words, the ideal "assault weapon" caliber.

Not to mention, such a gun would be easily adapted to a sub-gun configuration firing 10mm or .40Short&Weak, given that the case head is the same diameter. Of course, a custom bolt could be made for 9mm, etc.

-Troy



I'll bet some enterprising company could make that caliber into a rifle called the AR-264BA4 -with a forward assist.
Link Posted: 2/10/2002 7:40:23 PM EDT
I would like to wildcat the .350 Remington Magnum to make the 6.5mm-.350. That would be a kick ass round.
Link Posted: 2/10/2002 7:57:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/10/2002 8:25:09 PM EDT
105mm Artillery shell necked down to .17 rem, might need a long barrel though (oh say, a mile)
Link Posted: 2/10/2002 8:40:42 PM EDT
.22 long rifle case necked up to hold a .50 BMG bullet. it would be sweet cuz the cases would be cheap, and since the bullets would land about 20 feet away, you could pick em up and re-use em :)

im sure it would be killer on stuff like .... ummmmmm........


..... itd still be sweet....
Link Posted: 2/10/2002 8:49:40 PM EDT
Troy, I just mentioned something like that to a friend.
Read about it recently and thought it was a cool idea.
How's NATO feel about it?
Link Posted: 2/10/2002 9:04:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2002 9:11:33 PM EDT by sk8brdnick]
Hmmm, basically, I'd take the russian 5.45x.39 and put a canuleture (I can't spell) on the bullet so it would not only tumble, but fragment too. It would combine the best of both worlds. Also, 5.45 is optimized for a 16" barrel, not a 20" so muzzle blast is much less fierce in carbines. If done right you could achieve fragmentation out to much longer ranges than the 5.56x45 round.

Oh yeah, I forgot... 5000 fps is about the limit on chemically driven projectiles and this is only achievable with some pretty speciallized set ups (smooth bore tank cannons etc). The realistic limit for a rifle is a tad above 4000 fps and even then you are talking about some fierce barrel erosion...
Link Posted: 2/10/2002 9:13:25 PM EDT
6mm. Basically a long, narrow profile round will provide sufficient weight for increased momentum/penetration and lower drag coefficient. This was recently discussed in "G&W for LE", and it was suggested that the current Ar config. could be "recalibered" to 6mm with slightly more than a barrel change, springs, and maybe a heavier buffer.

6.5 might slightly excessive, relatively speaking. A long (50mm?) 6mm round, & 100-110 grains, would provide sufficient weight & terminal ballistics.

Just an opinion.
Link Posted: 2/10/2002 10:00:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/10/2002 10:20:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/11/2002 1:59:28 AM EDT
20mm/.50 BMG. A 20mm case necked down to a .50. Run a high twist, like 1/9 on a real long barrel, and you'll be able to reach way out and touch pretty much anything. Oh, solid bullets only, FMJ's would fly apart.
Link Posted: 2/11/2002 3:53:35 AM EDT
I would neck down a .50 bmg to .22. that way, I'll end the "necking down" craze forever. I'll call it "the breech melter 22,000"
Link Posted: 2/11/2002 5:58:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By urodoji:
20mm/.50 BMG. A 20mm case necked down to a .50. Run a high twist, like 1/9 on a real long barrel, and you'll be able to reach way out and touch pretty much anything. Oh, solid bullets only, FMJ's would fly apart.



Already been done as well. Called the 50 McMillan FatMac. It was designed by the late great Gale McMillan in 1996. A 750gr Hornady A-Max travels at 3425fps and developed 19,545 ft/lbs of energy!
Link Posted: 2/11/2002 6:18:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:
I would like to wildcat the .350 Remington Magnum to make the 6.5mm-.350. That would be a kick ass round.



I agree, it was a Kick Ass round.
6.5 Rem mag. was a factory round from 1966.
It would have been awsome except Rem. sold it in an 18" to 20" carbine. IN 1971 the 40X was offered in that Cal. Today the price of Brass and Dies make it costly to revive.

Link Posted: 2/11/2002 7:17:52 AM EDT
Why would I want to invent a new caliber when 45/70 already exists? Seriously, the 223 and 308 are pretty good rounds. I don't think it's worth the effort and cost to create something in between. You're talking a lot of expense for a few percent return. In my opinion, it would be worth the effort to convert to something that makes much bigger holes w/ much heavier bullets. I wish the 458 SOCOM was more widely available and cheaper. Even if you reload, with the cost of the dies ($170, I think) and brass, it's still expensive to shoot. From what I remember, it shot 300 grain bullets at 2,100 fps and 500 grain (!!) at 1350 fps. Tromix's conversion uses standard AR mags, which is a bonus (even if they don't hold that many rounds). For LEO use, it could replace the use of a shotgun's w/ slugs and a switch back to 223 is quick and easy.

To me, it seems like us ar15.com people already have almost everything we need. 22LR conversions are (relatively) cheap, many pistol round conversions exist, 223 works very well, 308 works well (although you can't use your 223 upper or lower), and 458 exists. The only thing we could wish for is cheaper conversions to the bigger rounds (especially 458).z
Link Posted: 2/11/2002 7:27:44 AM EDT
I'd make a 5mm caseless round that fires a discarding sabot flecte made of harden tungstun or depleted uranium at around 7000 feet per second.
Link Posted: 2/11/2002 8:09:51 AM EDT
I'd like to have a .277 or .264 that would fit in AR mags, possibly with a a rebatted rim. That would make a nice medium range deer or self-defense round.
Link Posted: 2/11/2002 8:11:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CHUCK6419:
I Personally Would Rather Have a .600/30



A friend of mine necked down a 460 Wby Mag to .308. Unfortunately, he died before he could get around to marketing it.
Link Posted: 2/11/2002 8:14:19 AM EDT
I have a novel idea, what about a 22 mag necked down to a .17? I bet Hornady would be interested.

My ideal round would be a .600 nitro magnum wildcat necked down to a 9mm or smaller ultra light aluminimum/carbon fiber/titanium projectile travelling at 18,000+ FPS for varmint hunting. Nothing to clean up afterwards. The impact would cause nuclear fission, thereby fusing all particles into anti-matter, thus floating away into nothingness.
Link Posted: 2/11/2002 9:59:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:
How about a bigger ACP type round-if .45 is good wouldn't .55 be better? Maybe not necessary of more effective but sure would look cool.



I'm with ya...

We need something with a bit more pop than the 45 ACP.

OK here it is, its called a 10mm

Wow, that thing is bit hard to control!

OK we can down load it, if we do that we can shorten the case - here it is! 40 S&W.

Gee thats not any more powerful than the 45 ACP.

Round and round we go!
Link Posted: 2/11/2002 10:46:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By imposter:

Originally Posted By CHUCK6419:
I Personally Would Rather Have a .600/30



A friend of mine necked down a 460 Wby Mag to .308. Unfortunately, he died before he could get around to marketing it.



It wasn't BECAUSE of testing that sucker, was it :-)
Seriously, though, I would like to see more work done on railgun technology. Not the railguns like you see at 1000 yd benchrest shoots but railguns as in the kind that use an electromagnetic pulse to propel the bullet out of the barrel. The same basic principle as why two magnets of like charge repel each other. Only the inside of the barrel has a LOT of current pumped through it, turning it into one powerful electromagnet. That should be able to surpass the theoretical ~6000 fps limit on gas-propelled rounds if you use a very small bullet. Use a smoothbore barrel firing a steel flechette at 6-7000 fps (any rifling would tear the projectile to pieces). Heck, why not make a hybrid round utilizing caseless and railgun technology? A caseless round to get the flechette up to 4000 fps, and the railgun to add a few thousand more. Anyone want to imagine what a 10,000 fps round would do to a soldier, or tank for that matter?
Link Posted: 2/11/2002 11:01:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By imposter:

Originally Posted By CHUCK6419:
I Personally Would Rather Have a .600/30



A friend of mine necked down a 460 Wby Mag to .308. Unfortunately, he died before he could get around to marketing it.



It was a wildcat long range benchrest cartridge for many years before Weatherby legitimized it with the .30-378Wby. The 378, 416, and 460 Wby's all share the same parent case. Basicly it is a uselessly belted .416 Rigby necked "Weatherby style" to the appropriate caliber. Ross Seyfried took the Rigby case, necked it down to .308 and called it (I think) the .308 Miss America.
Link Posted: 2/11/2002 11:55:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rudison:

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:
I would like to wildcat the .350 Remington Magnum to make the 6.5mm-.350. That would be a kick ass round.



I agree, it was a Kick Ass round.
6.5 Rem mag. was a factory round from 1966.
It would have been awsome except Rem. sold it in an 18" to 20" carbine. IN 1971 the 40X was offered in that Cal. Today the price of Brass and Dies make it costly to revive.



Yeah dad pays a butt load for his .350 brass, I didn't know they did that though....too bad they didn't offer it with a 24-26 inch bbl. It would make a great long range round.
Link Posted: 2/11/2002 1:44:37 PM EDT
I have an old P.O. Ackley loading manuel with loads for the "22 Eargesplitten Loudenboomer" listed, which is a 50 BMG case necked down to .22 caliber. The experimental loads were producing about 6,000 fps. Problem is, no matter how much powder you put in a case, you start reaching a point of dimenishing returns, as the gas can only expand so fast. I played around with necking a .223 up to 7mm once (no gun, just the round) made a pretty cool looking round, almost straight walled. Probably couldn't get over 2200 fps, but with a long heavy 7mm, B.C. still should be good. Just look at the 300 Whisper. ed
Link Posted: 2/11/2002 3:14:15 PM EDT
Regarding handgun bullets:

There's virtually every conceivable bullet out there already. And though the 440 Corbon (44magnum with a 50AE casing) is in my opinion the craziest handgun round out there, I think a neat twist would be the 357 round with the same charge...

Understood the handgun bullet would serve little purpose other than belligerent plinking...and I may be wrong, the bullet may exist...if so, I'll have another and read everyone else suggestions...lol
Link Posted: 2/11/2002 3:27:34 PM EDT
10 mm caseless standard light armor piecing... why?

Sorry I couldn't resist
Link Posted: 2/11/2002 9:02:54 PM EDT
How about a .357 Rimless?
Basicly adapt it for semi-auto rifles. It would be better than the 9mm carbine, it would be easy to make an AR upper, and the balistics are a known quantity. Carbine barrels only enhance the performance of this already formidable round. It would be a new, practical semi-auto performer. It might have the potential to be a new Police CQB round without being too powerful for a IIIA vest. Can you imagine an HK MP357R?
Link Posted: 2/11/2002 11:16:24 PM EDT
I dont know if this was mentioned so if it was could some please tell me what the caliber would be. But if you took a .223 case and opened it up, or necked it up to fit the largest bullet you could fit in. What caliber would it be? This way we could use AR-15 mags. Thats what I want.

Or a .50 BMG necked down to fit a 80 grain .22 caliber bullet. I dont know what it would be used for but I bet it would be cool.
Link Posted: 2/11/2002 11:20:00 PM EDT
I would definitely go with the .750 BAMF round. It is of course .75 caliber and has an overall length of approximately 11" when loaded with a 2000 grain bullet.

Upon firing in the standing position, anyone would be knocked flat on his butt. In any other firing position you would risk shoulder separation, or outright bone breakage. Not to mention permanent hearing damage and/or loss of consciousness with each and every shot.

This would be the gun for me to give to people who think they are tough and watch them bust ass. We might even be able to get a pistol barrel for the TC Encore for those "big bore pistol" fans.
Link Posted: 2/12/2002 12:04:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Axel:
How about a .357 Rimless?
Basicly adapt it for semi-auto rifles. It would be better than the 9mm carbine, it would be easy to make an AR upper, and the balistics are a known quantity. Carbine barrels only enhance the performance of this already formidable round. It would be a new, practical semi-auto performer. It might have the potential to be a new Police CQB round without being too powerful for a IIIA vest. Can you imagine an HK MP357R?



Already been done...
It's called the .357 SIG


I also saw an article somewhere regarding maximum "acheivable" muzzle velocity...
I sorta remember 5000FPS being the practical limit...
Bullets melted or exploded due to extreme friction at high velocity, and barrel problems arose from using exotic metals...
Can't remember the magazine where I read it...

Dammit, now I 'gotta go look for it...
Be back in a few days
Link Posted: 2/12/2002 5:29:36 PM EDT
I'm aware of the 357 sig, and the lever action repeaters, and the desert eagle, and miscellaneous other 357 formats like pump etc. I'm talking about a cartridge that would be a big brother to the .30 carbine. Same form factor, same everything as the .357, just adapt a rimless case to it. The only thing that would need developement is changing from a rear headspace to a front headspace design.

OK forget it howz about a long nine?
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 5:28:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2002 5:29:02 AM EDT by Benjamin0001]
Phased Plasma Rifle in the 40 Watt Range.

My ultimate would be the.

CO2 LASER ASSAULT RIFLE.
LASING MEDIUM: Carbon Dioxide
Footprint: Infra Red
Select Fire: Semi (10xE-15 sec)
Full Fire: @ 40000 PUlses / Minute at Semi Length
Power Rating: 100 Watt

W/ PLasma Ball Gernade Semi Auto Gernade Launcher.



Link Posted: 2/13/2002 5:54:22 AM EDT

...a .223 case and opened it up, or necked it up to fit the largest bullet you could fit in. What caliber would it be?


.300 Whisper, anyone? (starts out as a .221 Fireball (IIRC), but does end up with the same OAL as the 5.56.) Useable in the AR.
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 6:19:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Axel:
I'm aware of the 357 sig, and the lever action repeaters, and the desert eagle, and miscellaneous other 357 formats like pump etc. I'm talking about a cartridge that would be a big brother to the .30 carbine. Same form factor, same everything as the .357, just adapt a rimless case to it. The only thing that would need developement is changing from a rear headspace to a front headspace design.

OK forget it howz about a long nine?



How about the 9x23 Winchester? Read this:
www.burnscustom.com/9x23.html

Link Posted: 2/13/2002 6:46:27 AM EDT
1) .750/.223
2) .750/.308
3) 37mm/.750
4) 37mm/.500
5) 37mm/.308
6) 37mm/.223
7) 40mm/.500
8) 40mm/.308
9) 40mm/.223
10) 80mm/.750 (A Shotgun Slug Fired With The Force Of An 80mm Canon.)
11) 80mm/.500 (A .50 BMG Fired With The Force of an 80mm Canon.)
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 6:50:20 AM EDT
Where can I get a Rail Gun. Interesting is the Federal Definition of a Firearm and a Machine Gun would not include a Fully-Automatic Rail Gun.

What I need is an M16 Rail Gun...Now that would be cool !!!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 3:20:10 PM EDT
Bu the way most .40s&w loads are more powerful than most 45acp.loads. And the hot 45acp loads, your 1911 ain't built to take it!
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 3:35:37 PM EDT
By the way for my .600/30 bost, how would I figure out the FPS? All I did was take the maximum case capcity of a .600nitro express, divide it by the maximum case capicty of a .308win, and then muliply the max .308win load by the quotient. notabally not the physics answer but would be close. I figures if we used what the y use on the bottom of the space shuttle for lining the bore and making rilfing, maybe the barrel wouldn't melt. I don't think I would like to feel the recoil. P.S. How would I get a "Rail Gun"
-Chuck
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 4:27:42 PM EDT
How about?????

A caliber (handgun, rifle, shotgun), that will never miss its intended target(no matter point of aim), and knows whether or not to wound or kill, or even just punch paper. No recoil is a must, requires minimal reloading, and must be under $1.00 per 1000 rnds, requires no cleaning, and has eye pleasing asthetics(read:BAD ASS LOOKING MILITARY TYPE ASSUALT WEAPON) to make friends ooh and ahh.

I can't beleive no one has thought of this yet!!
I am gonna be rich !!!!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 7:12:56 PM EDT
I just want some decent priced 300 whisper ammo and fair priced uppers fromm bushy.]

that would be a hell of a deer gun and target gun once it caught on.
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 8:42:27 PM EDT
Actually, there are so many different cartridges out their already- some known only to collectors- that you could find pretty much whatever you wanted without going to the extreme of inventing a new round...

However

I have thought it would be kind of fun to build a short .500in cartridge that would work in a 1911 frame handgun. Something around a 300gr hollow point- with a BIG hollow point- or a 125gr hollow tubular bronze "cookie cutter" reversed sabot round. Build a better "fuzzy wuzzy" stopper.

That and some .17cal/25gr JHP sabot rounds for 5.56/.223. You think a 40gr TAP/V-Max is explosive? Try it with something doing over 4k at the muzzle!
Link Posted: 2/14/2002 5:58:17 AM EDT
Now there's an idea! LAERS, Railguns, and Plasma rifles would not be firearms under federal law , can you say technology loophole!

The greeks outlawed crossbows, only to have them suplanted in as little as two years with crude guns....Are we facing a modern iteration of that, I hope so!
Link Posted: 2/14/2002 6:57:40 AM EDT
.666 marvl --- it's one evil MF.
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