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Posted: 2/9/2002 4:35:21 AM EDT

Do/Did any member of these forums ever experience any harassment or conflict from any LEO/LEA over a pre-ban rifle in your possesion at the rifle range ? or any other place, such as at a Gun Show, or at the local abandoned dump, coal mine, or in the field ??

i read on another forum several months back where a forum member was harassed to the point where he ended up in jail, i do not recall all the circumstances, but it ended up costing him a bunch of money to be proven INNOCENT !!!!!! & he had no recourse.......

has any one here ever had an unpleasant experience wyth the law......??
Link Posted: 2/9/2002 4:39:36 AM EDT
I thought this was going to be a post talking about older LEO's being picked on...........
Link Posted: 2/9/2002 5:07:37 AM EDT
now what cudda give you that false impression ??
Link Posted: 2/9/2002 5:15:56 AM EDT
I've personally never had a problem. LEO's are are basically just like everybody else----whether they be doctors, engineers, carpenters, truck drivers, accountants or the like----people can be "graded" A, B, C, D or F----most are really pretty good---but there will always be a few who are jerks.
Link Posted: 2/9/2002 5:28:11 AM EDT
I would venture that most LEOs don't know pre ban from Post ban and really don't care. If the weapon were going to be charged it would probably be incident to some other charge.

The best advice is to keep it legal, and shoot only in areas where it is allowed. In any case when the legality of your weapon is questioned it is up to you to prove that it is in a currently legal configuration. It would be wise to carry your receipts, paperwork, and any other appropriate documentation. If you think the laws are confusing to you, just imagine that the LEOs out there have to keep up with constantly changing statutes and ordinances that cover every topic in the book. Their specific interest in firearms law is nowhere near your interest in the subject and it may well be that you know more about it than they do. The basic doctrine of LEOs used to be if in doubt, Don't. Sadly this is rarely taught anymore and has been replaced with Do, then verify cause either way your gonna get sued. It is easier sometimes to unarrest someone than to risk someone getting away. I have however usually noticed that most complaints of shooting in areas where this is legal usually stem from either noise complaints or fear of full auto fire either from an illegally modified rifle or from someone doing the bump and scaring the neighbors.

My best advice for avoiding trouble is to be polite and be able to verify that all is legal.
Link Posted: 2/9/2002 5:48:35 AM EDT
In Arkansas, NO? Most would want to fingerprint your toys and maybe shoot them. I know I always do!
Link Posted: 2/9/2002 6:02:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CactusJack:
now what cudda give you that false impression ??



Pre-ban LEO Harrasment

"Pre-ban LEO", one that was a LEO before 9/13/94

no to be confused with the more sinister "Pre-Ban Assualt LEO", one that was a LEO, and a SWAT type, prior to 9/13/94.

Remember tho' if a SWAT cop has left the SWAT team since 9/14/94 he is no longer pre-ban "assualt LEO" and the evil assualt features can not be replaced, except on duty.



just funnin'
Link Posted: 2/9/2002 6:39:22 AM EDT

if a SWAT cop has left the SWAT team since 9/14/94

Just left the team? I thought the law also required that he had his lower completely stripped at any time.z
Link Posted: 2/9/2002 6:45:32 AM EDT
The story you are questioning was not about pre/post ban, it was simply about possession... if you are referring to oneshotonekill.

I have had mt prebans out at the range... typically, anyone who knows just a slight amount about AR's, will see the bayo lug/FH, and ask.. "hey, is that a pre-ban?"

I say... "yeah"

They say... "Cool... arent those are expensive?"

That's about the extent of the conversation. Never had any trouble.
Link Posted: 2/9/2002 7:11:43 AM EDT
Ok, all kiddind aside, I have {shocked look} an OLY M4gery, pre-ban SS 16" barrel with a phantom FH {/shocked look}.

The FFL I used for the transfer is a LEO, Detective, and SWAT guy. When I actually get the rifle he said "Is it a pre-ban?" I said "yup, originally built in '90, and updated recently". He said "nice gun". (handing rifle to OLY-M4gery).

Some others have surpised me with their knowledge of what constitutes a "pre-ban".

More than a few don't know, and most of them at best don't care, a few think the "pre-ban/post-ban" thing is ridiculous including some competitive shooters.
Link Posted: 2/9/2002 7:45:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
I thought this was going to be a post talking about older LEO's being picked on...........

OLY-M4gery: LOL!
Link Posted: 2/9/2002 8:35:29 AM EDT
Hey OLY-M4gery,
Nice 3rd ID patch you have there. I have a few myself (Kitzingen, 86-88).
Link Posted: 2/9/2002 8:42:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WillysWagon:
Hey OLY-M4gery,
Nice 3rd ID patch you have there. I have a few myself (Kitzingen, 86-88).



Me Too! 4/84-10/85....... memory fading, can't remember the name of the cassern I was at Larson or Harvey, it was the one that didn't have the airfield.
Link Posted: 2/9/2002 1:34:04 PM EDT
ONCE, a few years before the ban, the local asst police chief and I (No I am not a LEO, he is a personal friend) were teaching CAP Cadets to shoot AR-15's, and I also had a Ruger Mini-14 in a Butler Creek folder, and another in a Choate Pistol Grip stock. So, the range officer, a sherrif's deputy, (it was the police range) comes over and asks "whos weapons?" I said, they are all mine. He then turned to the Asst Chief, and asked him, what is a CIVILIAN doing with that kind of gun? My good friend turned to him, said, quietly, all of that is perfectly legal for civilian ownership. You had better go study up on what is and isn't legal before you embarrass yourself with a false arrest. I commented to the deputy, doesn't matter, the kids have you outnumbered.
Link Posted: 2/9/2002 2:31:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/9/2002 3:04:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/9/2002 3:06:10 PM EDT by prk]
The big local (& state ) agencies are I think where you will find this most often.

It seems that the bigger the outfit the more likely you are to encounter LE's who are ignorant of the law, have no personal interest in shooting (and in fact may find it a real pain to qualifying with their DAO), and even have an attitude that they don't HAVE to on any of this.

These are the ones more likely to figure they have nothing to lose by harassment or that it's better to make an arrest and let the judge sort it out.

The good news is that you are not likely to see many of these people at the range, or here. If they actually have shooting interests, they probably are also interested enough to get familiar with the law.

What you should worry about are the ones that tested poorly but got hired/promoted on the quota system (assuming that the tests were not weakened).


Link Posted: 2/9/2002 7:15:24 PM EDT
Thanx fer the input guys..., i am not worried about the LEOs..., as much as being right !!

i just never got into the pre/post ban stuff till i started reading different forums about the former administrations desire to eliminate them all together, so i figgerd it is my constitutional RIGHT to own a pre ban AR 15, so i got some Colt's & Bushmaster pre bans...., no probs..!! BUT when i got into this Essential Arms thyngy is when thyngs started to open my eyes about legalities.......

the rifle in question is no doubt an Essential Arms lower, ALL external parts are matching black, the rifle is absolutely beautiful !! no marks (read scratches etc.) anywhere, no "wobble" between lower & upper, the hammer has very lyttle wear, the bolt & carrier show very lyttle wear, in fact it appears to be "new", but very slightly used.........
Link Posted: 2/9/2002 9:00:55 PM EDT
What many people don't understand is that the 'slime bill' of '94 is a FEDERAL law. We local yokels can't arrest you for violating it (absent, of course, participation in some sort of federal task force that gives us federal power). The only way you are going to get (legally) arrested by a state or local LEO for possession of an illegally configured post-ban gun is if there is a state law that mirrors the federal statute.

Where you are most likely to get your ass in a crack with this pre- or post-ban crap is if you get arrested on a state charge and somehow you have an illegal weapon in your possession. IF someone thinks to check and actually find out if you gun is illegal, they may or may not bother to call BATF, who may or may not bother to take the case. Both are very hit-or-miss.

As far as BATF going to the local range and checking serial numbers on guns with 'evil' features, I guess it's possible. Unless they already have PC to believe the gun is illegal or unless you consent, though, they can't do a lot. They could glance at the serial number as your gun lays on the bench while you're downrange, but if the serial number is facing down, they can't even turn the gun over to check it without PC (that would be a SEARCH).

Bottom line, as long as you're not already breaking some law that gives an officer reason to deal with you, you can always politely (or not politely, depending on your mood) decline to answer any questions regarding your guns or their status.
Link Posted: 2/9/2002 11:04:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/10/2002 1:50:12 AM EDT
I was once "questioned" about a the (pre ban) features on my AR-15, while getting it REGISTERED (1999).......you see the receivers were previously registered as "receivers only," days prior to the ban.

It was a "fishing" expedition by the police.
Link Posted: 2/10/2002 3:53:32 AM EDT
Pre or post ban, I really don't give a flying crap at the moon unless it is pointed at me. Then I will do the research to see if additional charges can be brought against the ass-whipe. All I ask for is the ability to shoot and or handle some of your cool weapons (with your permission of course). Hell, I'll even supply the ammo. I have on occasion let several people not associated with my department shoot the issued MP-5 that the good citizens in the city saw fit to purchase for me (you gotta buy the ammo for that thing yourself. I'm not gonna feed the beast!)Most of the time on a firearms related call the good-old boy is just ignorant about the various laws and areas where he can shoot. Unless you are someone who really needs to go to jail, I will sit down with you and BS with you about your firearms and try to educate you where you can go and shoot (Go see JimBob, he has a range on the back side of his ranch that he would be more that happy to help a fellow shooter out.). I was a shooter and a gunowner before I became a police officer and I will be a gunowner and a shooter after I quit the job. Nuff said.

Karl
Link Posted: 2/10/2002 4:41:40 AM EDT
i want to thank you all for the great replies, some seem to be from LEOs & that is even better !

i do a lot of shooting in a private area, so in that manner i am NOT concerned about legalities, or ever being questioned, but when i do go to the shooting range wyth friends or to meet a potential firearm seller, i do not want some nosey ill informed LEO, who may want to get his name in lights causing a ruckus for no reason at all, as some have already mentioned, i may be in the RIGHT, but the subsequent hassle & resulting problems are just not worth it.......

i want to be in a legal status at all tymes, but buying a pre-ban rifle, i.e. wyth an Essential Arms lower..., just kinda throws a shadow over the rifle, but as Sparky315, reassures me/us, the lykelyhood of having your rifle given the "anal" exam, whyle unattended when you are down range is in it self illegal to do......., many years ago when doing bench rest shooting i always laid a towel over my rifle when going down range, this is a practice i shall continue when shooting at a public range !!!!!!!

once more thank you all for the great input
Link Posted: 2/10/2002 5:27:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2002 5:31:34 AM EDT by S_U_R_Fire]


Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
Larson or Harvey, it was the one that didn't have the airfield.



That would be Larson. Count yourself lucky. I was on Harvey (3-63 AR). Our barracks stood two blocks from said airfield. The Germans had the uncanny knack of scheduling Touch-n-go training for their C-130 pilots on the exact night we would return from FTX.
Link Posted: 2/10/2002 7:47:34 AM EDT
I've had the local LEO show up twice while shooting into the hillside, said he hoped that I was almost done because some of the rich folks that are moving to the country were afraid that they were under fire. We were shooting about five miles from them and in the opposite direction. I told him this was very legal, He just stood there starring at the ar's ak's and fals and assorted firearms and drooled. I asked him if he would like to fire any of them and he said that he was not aloud to while on duty. So he just handled them and thanked us for tolerating him and the rich folks that were complaining. I gave him my phone number but he never called about going shooting with us.
Link Posted: 2/10/2002 8:20:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2002 8:21:52 AM EDT by BobCole]

Originally Posted By CactusJack:Do/Did any member of these forums ever experience any harassment or conflict from any LEO/LEA over a pre-ban rifle in your possesion at the rifle range ? or any other place, such as at a Gun Show, or at the local abandoned dump, coal mine, or in the field ??


We had a couple of BATF agents at our gun club meeting. I showed one my H&K P7M8 that I had just bought. HE HAD NEVER SEEN ONE!!!

I've never seen too many LE dudes who knew much more than which end of the tube the rd comes out of. All this BS about pre-ban, post ban, ban deodorant, yadda yadda yadda. The gun shoots the same ammo, the same bullet, is the same size. "Buy it & use it" is what I do. Your mileage may vary.
Link Posted: 2/10/2002 9:20:46 AM EDT
I was once harassed over a post-ban Kimber 1911 I had in my zipped up Dillon Precision range bag....long story short...I got threatened by the cop who said that "if he had known I had a gun in the car when he pulled me over, he would have shot me..."

I kid you not.

Be VERY, VERY careful when traveling through McKinney, TX...the cops I got to meet there (the ones who pulled me over) have NO sense of humor & the jerk who cited me was itching to slide that gun out of his holster. I knew things were not going well when he walked up to my vechile tapping the grip on his Glock.

There is one that shoots at the IDPA competition I attend, but I have not had a chance to get to know him. He sure can handle his Glock well though.

Like everyone has already stated, be careful where you shoot. Most cops are not that bad but there are bad apples in every profession.

Link Posted: 2/10/2002 9:39:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2002 9:42:56 AM EDT by OLY-M4gery]

Originally Posted By S_U_R_Fire:


Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
Larson or Harvey, it was the one that didn't have the airfield.



That would be Larson. Count yourself lucky. I was on Harvey (3-63 AR). Our barracks stood two blocks from said airfield. The Germans had the uncanny knack of scheduling Touch-n-go training for their C-130 pilots on the exact night we would return from FTX.



Is the 3/63 logo blk/wht with an elephant head? When I got to Larson it had just been featured on 60 minutes as the worst cassern in USAREUR........

They were rebuilding the barracks, while we were living in them. We were by the NCO acadamy. 8 people in what had previously been 4 person rooms, we had to have 4 lockers in the hall way the rooms were so small. They also put up a helo pad behind the barracks. Those CH-47's wake ya up pretty good too.

There were 3 messhalls on Larson 1 used to be a motor pool, 1 was a morgue, and I forget what the 3rd was. (during the big war......) We had the NCO club that also let lower enlisted's in, it had marks on the wall where the Hitler bust had been, when it was the O-club during the "big war".

As I remember it Harvey had the PX, stereo store, and a place you could buy guns.

Ah, it wasn't that bad, I'm glad I had the experience.
Link Posted: 2/10/2002 10:22:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:

Is the 3/63 logo blk/wht with an elephant head?



That was the 64th armor. We shared a motor pool with them.
The 63rd crest is green with a gold diagonal and a silver lion.

I remember the CH-47's. We could hear them from Harvey.
Link Posted: 2/10/2002 8:21:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2002 8:37:28 PM EDT by WillysWagon]
Wasn't Larson the barracks up on the hill. That's where I was. 3/67 ADA. My barracks looked over the Heli Pad on the rear side of the base. I'll post some pics of choppers landing, if I can find them.

edited to include pic.

Link Posted: 2/10/2002 8:38:01 PM EDT
I've worn that patch also.. Katterbach Army Airfield. 2/1 Avn. '91 ... got converted from 1AD.
Link Posted: 2/11/2002 9:32:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/11/2002 9:38:53 AM EDT by OLY-M4gery]

Originally Posted By WillysWagon:
Wasn't Larson the barracks up on the hill. That's where I was. 3/67 ADA.



Wasn't that one of the newer barracks?? Built after the 60 minutes piece.

Were you behind the 3ID NCO Acadamy? Near 703rd Maint. Bn (old barracks)?

Nothing like a golf course surronding a ADA missile battery.........

Larson was up on the hill. Originally was a WWI German barracks where they trained artillery and anti-aircaft troops.
Link Posted: 2/12/2002 8:52:29 PM EDT
That's it. I remember seeing old photo's of the base when it was German barracks, hospital and all. I was there when they were widening the road leading to town and discovered a UXB from WWII. Pretty cool stuff.
Link Posted: 2/12/2002 10:39:11 PM EDT
I have never been messed with on the preban-postban issue once, just questioned on whether or not the stuff was automatic or under the legal length. That was in CA where a black gun is a black gun so they see it all the same. There is not much of a significant legal difference there for preban, postban or full automatic. It is all illegal and a felony as of Jan 2002 if it is not on paper. State law does not recognize preban or postban status, so folding stocks on a registered postban AR are not state jurisdiction.

Oregon is another matter. People in Oregon either know what is going on or think they know what is going on and every Billy-bob you meet is an "expert" on firearms. So here, people nitpick everything and are nosy bastards. They figure that gunowners in California are the cause of gun control and have this backassward idea that they can be pro-Oregon guns and anti-California guns and that will somehow protect them.

I had to read the riot act to a few of these dumbasses about what would happen to them if they even came close to attempting to play the wierd ass notion that the CA plates on my car and ownership of ARs means I must be a felon. Had one "reserve" officer offer me the "favor" of taking a preban AR off my hands and give me $500 so I would not be in any "trouble" seeing that I was from California and California residents had better be getting rid of their banned guns or go to jail blah blah blah.

My reaction was "Duude, I don't think you really want to get hurt over this, so why don't you just drop it while you are ahead."
Link Posted: 2/13/2002 4:15:19 AM EDT
I've never been harassed over anything firearms related, but I went to school with most of the the LE around here. Last week I had to get in touch with the 3rd Judicial Drug Task Force about a public auction they were having (busted one of our local thugs) about some title II stuff they had listed. To make a long story short, when asked about how certain items were to transfer I get the old "transfer on what?" question and had to explain how NFA stuff works, I caused alot of stuff to get yanked from their auction, no F/A stuff but some cool stuff nonetheless. At least they had the sense to listen to me, the officer I spoke with was extremely pleasent.
Link Posted: 2/22/2002 7:38:39 AM EDT
Regarding the "post-ban" Kimber 1911. There is no such thing as a post ban pistol. There are post and pre ban magazines. Pistols prior to 1994 are just like pistols after, with a few exceptions for manufacturers who sold out like S&W and built in new features -like finger print recognition. The only differences are mag capacity...10 and under and 10 and over..that's it. Your receivers are the same, grips are the same, sights are the same. Just my 2 cents.
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 9:53:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/26/2002 11:58:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/27/2002 12:01:03 AM EDT by bobbyjack]
you are right troy i have an old forjas taurus sa pt-92 pre ban probably 88-90 model came with a met-gar 17rnd mag. but if you buy a new pt-92 it would have come with a ten round mag and you had better not get caught with any thing bigger in it! thats what some people dont know if you buy a say sar-1 that has all the right numbers of pieces removed and say a new american trigger group on it to make it legal,also a new plastic hand grip,, all you have to do to be over the edge again is to simply put that mak-90 mag in it(that has that made in china) on the bottom....back to foriegn parts and illegal again.. same as putting 15rnd mags in a post ban pistol that came with ten rnd mags....
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 5:20:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
That's incorrect. Pistols have to be post-ban compliant also, though the rules for pistols are different (and, more or less, specifically targeted at the TEC-9).

-Troy



What is the difference between a post-ban and pre-ban pistol? I have never heard of that.

Av.
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 5:34:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bobbyjack:
you are right troy i have an old forjas taurus sa pt-92 pre ban probably 88-90 model came with a met-gar 17rnd mag. but if you buy a new pt-92 it would have come with a ten round mag and you had better not get caught with any thing bigger in it!



Uhh...

No.

The magazine ban simply bans manufacture of magazines larger than 10 rounds after september of 1994 for anything other than LE/GOVT use, and bans possession same. Anything made before the ban is LEGAL to put in ANY firearm that will accept it.

That's like saying you can't put 30 round mags in your post-ban Bushmaster--i.e. bullshit.

(The funny thing is I have heard this repeated by folks who ought to know better--the instructor in my CARRY CLASS told people that if they wanted to carry hicaps for self defense, they HAD to buy a "pre-ban" pistol.)
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 5:35:17 AM EDT
Pre-ban/Post-ban does not bother anyone here. In fact most folks enjoy going over to look, hear and shoot full autos here, and we do it a lot. Just make sure you have your stamp with the firearm. Nothing like the Republic of Vermont. I might add the first republic in the country 1780 to 1791. We are know as "The First Republic, the 14th State" but I still like Texas (so please no rifs from this). I will however our compare our 2nd Ammendment rights with any other state.
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