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Posted: 2/8/2002 11:43:20 AM EDT
I am in the market for a new CCW pistola. Here are the ones I've looked at so far with my persoanl impression.
KelTec P11: it just looks like a butt ugly cheap pos
Kahr Polymer: Something about it I just don't like
Kimber Ultra Carry: Like it...ALOT, but DAMN that pricetag
Wilson Compact : Ditto above only moreso
Springfield Compact: Like it, pricey, but dunno alot about Springfields. Reliable?
The Taurus Millenium in 9mm or .40 cal: Decent concealability for decent price. Seems to get good reviews. Anybody here own one?

I hate Glocks (so save your breath, Glock lovers, glad you like yours, I know I'm missing out on "perfection" blah blah... I still Hate them)

What does Sig make in the small CCW size pistol? Anyone?

Am I missing anything? I currently have an HK USPC .45, want something a bit less bulky.

Thanks for any insight!
Pit

Link Posted: 2/8/2002 11:53:53 AM EDT
Why would you be interested in the Taurus Millenium pistols but not a Kahr or a Glock?

Anyway, if you like SIGs, consider the SIG P239.

www.sigarms.com/products/classicpersonalsize-models.asp?product_id=43&product_name=P239
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 12:16:07 PM EDT
The CCW pistol is like a condom carried by a guy who is uncomfortably shy around women. The duration of time it is used is incredibly low compared to the duration of time it will be carried. My advice is to choose the weapon that won't feel like a brick attached to your belt. I've always felt if I bought a lottery ticket every day and carried my weapon every day, I'd win the lottery long before I discharged the weapon in self-defense. Of course I live in a relatively crime free area. Unless you live in da getto or el barrio, I recommend minimizing weight.
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 12:21:26 PM EDT
PitViper,

I have shot the millenium in the .40. I really liked it. My buddy got it for his CCW pistol. It was accurate, didn't have any problems, felt good in my hand and conceals nicely. I am thinking of getting one myself. I like the price on these. Very appealing.

I have also used the Sig p229 mentioned above. Another excellent pistol!! I would take one in a heartbeat. You can't go wrong here.

Defcon

ps-I don't like Glocks either. Maybe some people out there will pray for our souls. Who knows.
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 12:30:49 PM EDT
The HK P7 line is quite nice, gives you a full 4.1" of barrel in a very compact package. Expensive, So I advise a used one.

Unfortunately, the all metal guns are kind of heavy. The P7M8 is about my upper limit for a full day, and the M13 is a pain.

Whats's wrong with the Taurus PT145, if you are a .45 ACP fan?

BTW, I'm no fan of the Glock either, but when it comes to plastic guns, the Glock is as good as any, better than most. Might also look at the S&W/Walther line.

In general, I'd try to keep an all day carry gun to about a pound and a half, loaded. MUch lighter, and they are a bear to shoot in serious defensive calibers, much heavier they are a bear to carry.

I know this will be a terrible thing to say, but have you considered a revolver? (Gasps of horror all around! oooooohhhhh!)

A nice J frame in .357 works great.
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 12:32:00 PM EDT
llama minimax subcompact in .45, 10 rounds, under $300, homely but functional. it's a pistol, not a party dress. it's a little heavy, but some of it might be the 2300 grains of lead.
with the proper shoulder holster it nestles nicely into an armpit.
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 12:38:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2002 12:39:34 PM EDT by garandman]
I'm not a huge fan of DAO pistols, but I simply CANNOT let go of my Kahr Polymer 9. When the weather calls for light clothes, there simply IS NOT a better carry gun for 9mm and smaller calibers. It has a "whole hand" grip, loads 7+1, and is a VERY good shooter. I prefer a weapon as described below, but I'll always keep teh Kahr for a carry gun when its hot weather.

Persoanlly, right now I am getting all sweaty thinking about the H&K USP Compact in 40 mm. Relatively light weight, 10 round capacity mags, and the hot .40 cal ammo. And its pretty concealable (at least as much as you can tell in the gun store)

Link Posted: 2/8/2002 12:38:29 PM EDT
You may want to consider the Sig P245 nice compact version of the P220. Has gotten some good reviews.
Good Luck
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 12:55:06 PM EDT
Choose the largest handgun you can reliably make hits with, nothing else matters. It's hard to recommend handgun 'A' or 'B' just based on what someone likes. What works for me may suck in your hands. Of the guns you listed none would be my first choice but the Wilson would come close, although I would prefer a full size all steel version. Don't pick you handgun based solely on price or size or weight or caliber anymore than you would base it on me saying "gun 'X' will absolutely work for you 100% of the time... if you hit 'em with this they'll drop like a sock!"

Don't skimp! Don't rationalize saving money on you sidearm or choosing a smaller gun in the interest of comfort just because you don't statistically think you'll ever actually use it. If you have to use your gun it will be for keeps, you need a gun you can depend on in life and death situations... after all that's what a gun fight is. Don't let your need for a quality sidearm loose out to lowest cost. That's not to say everyone has to spend $1000+ to get a CCW. A very effective sidearm can be had for $600 or less, but if you shoot the $1000 or $1500 gun the best acquiring said gun would be worth more than the initial cash outlay.

More important than any gun is to get proper training and practice, practice, practice. The most expensive custom gun sitting in your handmade holster isn’t worth a damn if you do not know how to shoot it.
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 1:21:02 PM EDT
Two good choices:

HKP7m8(9mm)
Pros: thin, accurate, reliable, simple to use, the squeeze cocker is the safety.
Cons: expensive, heavy for size, unique manual of arms -- once you used one for a while it may be difficult to transition back to other pistols.


Sig239(9mm or 40)thin, relatively light, Pros: reliable, no manual safety to fumble,simple to use
Cons: double action first shot, followed by single action. I don't care for this, some may not be bothered by it.

ABOVE ALL: DO GET NIGHT SIGHTS. If you have ever shot in low light conditions you will agree.

Shoot regularly! I shoot IDPA. A lot a folks criticize IDPA but it is better than shooting in an indoor range one or two times a year or not at all!!

docmac86
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 1:28:04 PM EDT
Here's what I do:

1. When I can conceal in a belt holster, it's a Kimber Ultra Elite with laser grips in a Galco high-rise. Very accurate and fast.

2. When only shirts are worn, sometimes a Glock 33 (.357 Sig) in a Kramer lightweight under-the-shirt vented vest. Kind of like an extra undershirt. :>) Kind of accurate and no sharp edges to scrape against my tender skin. (he he)

3. When neither of the above, either a Colt Pocket 9 or a Kel-Tec .32 in the pants pocket. The .32 is the last resort - kind of puny for protection but better than nothing.

I have a bunch of pistols and there's nothing at all wrong with the Kel-Tec P11, BTW. You're right - butt ugly but functional.

Forget about ankle holsters - too uncomfortable.
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 1:30:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tinker:
BTW, I'm no fan of the Glock either, but when it comes to plastic guns, the Glock is as good as any, better than most.



The glock is not as good as any. Any gun that you have to pull the trigger on to break it down, is just not safe.

I do agree with the p7 though, it is a good compact gun with one of the best triggers going.

Personally, I am going to carry a 92fs, but I will usually not be carrying on my person so the weight size is not an issue.

In a polymer gun, I would stick with HK period.
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 1:38:19 PM EDT
PitViper,

I personally carry a SpringField Compact - it is a bit on the heavy side and difficult to conceal when just shirts and pants are the order of the day, but I never feel under dressed!

Ryan
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 1:48:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Darin_Marple:

Originally Posted By Tinker:
BTW, I'm no fan of the Glock either, but when it comes to plastic guns, the Glock is as good as any, better than most.



The glock is not as good as any. Any gun that you have to pull the trigger on to break it down, is just not safe.



Just make sure it isn't loaded when you clean it!! It really isn't that hard!!
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 2:07:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2002 2:12:52 PM EDT by JAW]
I have custom 1911's, Glocks, USPs, Berettas, and others.

The gun I carry the most is a Smith & Wesson J-Frame 642.

Of the ones that you mentioned, in my opinion, you should go for the Springfield. They recontoured the front-strap and dustcover for 2002 to be more like Colts, Kimbers, or old school Springfields and also improved their dehorn job.

The lack of a Series 80 (Colt) or Series II (Current Kimber) firing pin safety makes the Springfield one of the only "quality"/"factory" 1911's out there with the original fire control system.

I've heard reports from the SHOT Show that Springfield Loaded is now "on top" of the current crop of box-stock 1911s for the reasons above and general value considerations.

JAW
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 2:12:40 PM EDT
docmac86: the Sig 239 as with other DA/SA pieces, is not DAO when you carry one round in the chamber. Personally speaking it's one of the nicest pistols I've had the pleasure of owning (until it was stolen from me; more on that pending Internal Affairs review). Some of my larger friends tend to not be as comfortable with it, citing the size of the grip.

I also reccommend the Taurus Ultralight Titanium Police model 85 with the concealed hammer in 38spl. Not meant for any sort of long range shooting; its made for quick-drawing and sticking into the gut of some unlucky mother-!
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 2:26:40 PM EDT
I have a P7M8 and absolutely love it. Very accurate in a small package but a little on the heavy side and takes practice to be good. If you can find them the sig 225 are great guns. They haven't been made for several years but if you can find one pick it up. very nice small grip and lighter for an all metal gun. For a warm weather gun I always reach for my Smith 642. Light weight but not the super light weights so it is accually shootable and not the 550 that the titanium models bring. my .02
Oh and if anyone gets a chance to look at some of the SHOT show pics the 308 rifle that Gemtec was displaying was on loan to them. Ya my rifle was at the SHOT show. Hopefully I can mkae it next time too.
~Bill
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 3:02:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Red_Dragon:

Originally Posted By Darin_Marple:

Originally Posted By Tinker:
BTW, I'm no fan of the Glock either, but when it comes to plastic guns, the Glock is as good as any, better than most.



The glock is not as good as any. Any gun that you have to pull the trigger on to break it down, is just not safe.



Just make sure it isn't loaded when you clean it!! It really isn't that hard!!



Nobody intends to have a mistake, that is why they are called mistakes. In my opinion, this gun facilitates that mistake.

You have a different opinion, great.
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 3:18:36 PM EDT
what's the word on the Springfield xp Dao
that's what I have been thinking about.
Link Posted: 2/8/2002 7:21:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sunuva:
what's the word on the Springfield xp Dao
that's what I have been thinking about.



One of the best pistols ever. Of course, despite some literature to the contraty, the XD is definately single-action. It is at full cock until the trigger is pulled. The trigger is made heavier than a standard SA by added spring weight and a longer pull length. It basically feels like a two-stage trigger. A very effective and smooth setup. Amazingly accurate, and it feels great. The Intrac HS2000 is the same pistol, if you happen to bump into one of those.

Not sure how well they would carry, though. I personally would want something a bit smaller. Of course, i wear jeans and polo shirts. Hopefully a compact model is coming soon.
Link Posted: 2/9/2002 9:13:19 PM EDT
Beretta 92. Yeah it's big, but it's not that heavy for a full-size, and with the right holster you can conceal it in shorts and an untucked T-shirt. Accurate as hell, utterly reliable. Hi-cap mags are still easy to find, and with Cor-bon or Federal 9BPLE +P+ ammo (www.ammoman.com, he'll sell it to civilians) it's as good as anything out there. Easy to shoot one-handed if you're getting the wife and kids to cover with the other hand.

If you must have a small pistol, the Kahr P9 is very thin and light, and mine outshoots all my Glock 9mm's (19 and 17 both) out to 25 yards. Very nice concealed carry gun.
Link Posted: 2/9/2002 9:56:53 PM EDT
When its cold I carry the full size HK USP45 and when its warm the Springfield full size 1911.
Link Posted: 2/11/2002 12:44:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PitViper:
I am in the market for a new CCW pistola. Here



Check out one of the AMT backups. SS, very small, but very hard trigger.
or something from the Taurus Ultralite line.
Link Posted: 2/11/2002 12:55:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheCommissioner:
The CCW pistol is like a condom carried by a guy who is uncomfortably shy around women. The duration of time it is used is incredibly low compared to the duration of time it will be carried. My advice is to choose the weapon that won't feel like a brick attached to your belt. I've always felt if I bought a lottery ticket every day and carried my weapon every day, I'd win the lottery long before I discharged the weapon in self-defense. Of course I live in a relatively crime free area. Unless you live in da getto or el barrio, I recommend minimizing weight.



Not trying to overly critical but "a gun is suppose to be comforting, not comfortable" -Jeff Cooper
Link Posted: 2/11/2002 1:11:31 PM EDT

Persoanlly, right now I am getting all sweaty thinking about the H&K USP Compact in 40 mm. Relatively light weight, 10 round capacity mags, and the hot .40 cal ammo. And its pretty concealable (at least as much as you can tell in the gun store)



While the 40mm round is very effective, it can be a little hard to conceal.

Sorry, couldn't resist a typo like that!

And Sparky, what holster do you use to conceal a 92FS in tshirt and shorts?
Link Posted: 2/11/2002 2:11:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:

Originally Posted By TheCommissioner:
The CCW pistol is like a condom carried by a guy who is uncomfortably shy around women. The duration of time it is used is incredibly low compared to the duration of time it will be carried. My advice is to choose the weapon that won't feel like a brick attached to your belt. I've always felt if I bought a lottery ticket every day and carried my weapon every day, I'd win the lottery long before I discharged the weapon in self-defense. Of course I live in a relatively crime free area. Unless you live in da getto or el barrio, I recommend minimizing weight.



Not trying to overly critical but "a gun is suppose to be comforting, not comfortable" -Jeff Cooper



Ummm... I believe it was Clint Smith that said that, but you do have an excellent point.
Link Posted: 2/12/2002 9:55:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By reidry:
I personally carry a SpringField Compact - it is a bit on the heavy side and difficult to conceal when just shirts and pants are the order of the day, but I never feel under dressed!



Reidry: Spend $100 and buy a Milt Sparks VersaMaxII holster. It is an inside the waistband holster that is STABLE, THIN, and COMFORTABLE. I carry a full-sized Government 1911 in it in cargo shorts (requires belt) and T-shirt (Untucked)...can't see it at all.
Link Posted: 2/16/2002 2:52:28 PM EDT
Mace - Where can I get one of those 40mms. I don't have one yet and I need it!
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 10:03:21 AM EDT
As been posted by many others here buy the gun you will carry daily. If it gets to the point where you do not want to carry it, you will most likely stop, this defeats the purpose of the weapon.

I own several 1911's, colt officers, kimber custom and compact, and Springfield loaded 5 inch. The Springfield is excellent out of the box. I carry it both on the job and concealed. I have no fears or reliability issues with this gun. It is always with me and i have friends who know I carry and can never tell. My 2 cents.

Sean
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 11:46:04 AM EDT
Hmmm...I carry a HK USP 45C daily, and find it comfortable above all others. Going with the idea that you've tried different holsters, a proper gun belt, etc., I have a couple of recommendations:

1) Kahr Arms (www.kahr.com) makes several fantastic little manstoppers, in a variety of finishes and materials. They deserve a hard look, if for no other reason than they're a) small, thin, and light, and b) are chambered for a powerful round. Additionally, their website is probably the best in the business, with a wide selection of holsters (including Alessi!), extra mags, and more.

2) SigArms has a great little gun - the P239, that's available in .40S&W and .357 SIG, as well as the tried and true 9mm Parabellum. It's light, thin, reliable and cheap (for a Sig product). Check out their website at www.sigarms.com

3) If you're really looking for a trim pistol, take a very close look at Wilson's Sentinel and Stealth. They're expensive, but are very accurate and reliable. During some recent shooting, I borrowed a friend's Sentinel and found it very pleasing to shoot - almost as much fun as my HK USP 45C!

Hope this helps!
Link Posted: 2/27/2002 12:53:34 PM EDT
You guys carry wussy .40 cal????

REAL men carry 40 mm. Whip that puppy out and there's no need to shoot - they drop dead from pure fear.



As has been adequately illustrated, I shoulda sayed .40 CALIBER, not mm.

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