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Posted: 1/30/2002 1:04:33 PM EDT
A good buddies father is selling his AR15. It is a Colt AR and was originally bought back in 88. From that I figure that makes it pre-ban rifle. This is where I need some help. Being this will be my first AR, I want to know what to look for to make sure it is in good shape. To the best of my knowledge it still fires. Since my plan is to convert it to a M4 style rifle I'm mostly concerned about the lower receiver. Any advice you guys could lend would greatly appreciate.

Thanks
JoeyD

PS I have the Serial Number if that helps any.


Link Posted: 1/30/2002 1:30:33 PM EDT
Your first impressions are usually a very good representation of the over all condition of the rifle.

Is it scuffed? Scratched at all? Take a flashlight or bore-light and shine it inside either the mag well or ejection port(make SURE it's unloaded!), then look down the barrel. Does it look clean? Pitted? Rusty at all? Shiney and clean? Even though you're gonna replace the upper, it's still a good indication of how the whole rifle has been treated.

Take the rifle apart, as in separate the upper and lower. Look inside the lower at the trigger group. Does it look well worn? Is it dirty? Is it lubed? Is the lube clean, or is it old and dirty? Look for signs of excessive wear.

AR's, for the most part are tough weapons, and are made to shoot a lot. Ask if he's the first and only owner of the gun. Ask if any of the rifle has had to be replaced. If so, what and why. It would also be good if he'd let you fire a few rounds through it, though usually not vital.

If it looks good, well cared for, then 98% of the time the owner has done his/her part in caring for their AR. There's a lot of folks who have Colt SP1's from the early 70's and late 60's that have shot MANY rounds and still work flawlessly. The odds are in your favor, if it looks well cared for that it would serve you well for many years to come.

Link Posted: 1/30/2002 1:32:25 PM EDT
P.S.- What's he asking for it? If it was purchesed in 88, then it's a pre-ban. Wouldn't hurt to do a serial # check anyway.
Link Posted: 1/30/2002 2:23:06 PM EDT
Run it through it's saftey checks too. Charge the rifle (unloaded of course), put it on Safe, pull the trigger. The hammer shouldn't drop. Put it on fire, the hammer should drop. Hold trigger while you charge the rifle again, slowly release the trigger and you should hear a click. Put it on safe and go through that procedure 5 times. It should pass all five times. Depending on the price, anything worn in the rifle can be replaced. If it's a good price, go for it.
Link Posted: 1/30/2002 3:02:11 PM EDT
What is the $$$$$$$$......save up.....buy a new bushmaster..............
Link Posted: 1/30/2002 3:32:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BlackandGreen:
What is the $$$$$$$$......save up.....buy a new bushmaster..............



Doesn't look like he'll need to save up for a new Bushmaster if he's looking at a pre-ban Colt. He could almost buy two new Bushies for the price of a nice pre-ban Colt, depending on what model it is and it's condition.

I would like to know what price has been put on it though.
Link Posted: 1/30/2002 7:38:20 PM EDT
Check your serial number with this:

Colt 800-962-COLT
CC001616 and Below - Pre-Ban
CH019500 and Below - Pre-Ban
GC018500 and Below - Pre-Ban
LH011326 and Below - Pre-Ban
MH086020 and Below - Pre-Ban
NL004800 and Below - Pre-Ban
SL027246 and Below - Pre-Ban
SP360200 and Below - Pre-Ban
1963 SP00001-SP00023**
1964 SP00101
1965 SP02501
1966 SP05600
1967 SP08250
1968 SP10750
1969 SP14000-SP14653
1970 SP15001-SP15473
1971 SP16001
1972 SP19401
1973 SP24201
1974 SP32601
1975 SP43801
1976 SP55301
1977 SP67651
1978 SP83400
ST038100 and Below - Pre-Ban
TA10100 and Below - Pre-Ban
BD000134 and Below - Pre-Ban (AR-15A3 Tactical Carbine - very rare model)
MT00001 and Above - Post-Ban
BK000001and Above - Post Ban (CAR-A3)
CST000001 and Above - Post-Ban (Began Late 1997 Production)
CMH000001 and Above - Post Ban
CCH010000 and Above - Post Ban MT6700, MT6700C and MT6700CH series, 1998 production

ColtShorty

GOA KABA COA JPFO SAF NRA

"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted
and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do
these things to other people and I require
the same from them."

Link Posted: 1/30/2002 9:25:31 PM EDT
Thanks to everyone for your input. I'll check the S/N as soon as find the peice of paper that is somewere on my desk. There is no set price on it, they are waiting for me to make an offer. So if it is in good condition and pre-ban how much is it worth ?

Thanks Again
JoeyD
Link Posted: 1/31/2002 5:51:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JoeyD:
Thanks to everyone for your input. I'll check the S/N as soon as find the peice of paper that is somewere on my desk. There is no set price on it, they are waiting for me to make an offer. So if it is in good condition and pre-ban how much is it worth ?

Thanks Again
JoeyD



Depends on what model it is. Look whats stamped on the outside of the mag well, under the Colt pony. Tell us what it says, and a good description of its condition. We'll then be able to give you a ball park figure.
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 11:49:30 AM EDT
M4 - Sorry it has taken me soo long to respond. I called Colt it is defiantly a pre-ban rifle made in the late 80's. They couldn't give me any more info then that do to its age. I don't have easy access to the rifle (it's about a 3.5 hour drive for me). As per my friend who I can trust it is in mint condition and was well maintained. But that is all I can say for now. I'm going up to look at it in the near future. Is there anything else I should know or look for ?

Thanks
JoeyD
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 5:30:53 PM EDT
OK, cards on the table. I'm just a schmoe with no real knowledge, but no one else is answering, so...

There are some obvious / common sense things to do. Look for external scratches, dings, etc. Ask if you can run a lightly oiled patch down the barrel: if it's dirty, that tells you something. Ask to see the ammo the guy still has: if it's Federal Gold, that's one thing, if it's XYZ generic, that's another. Ask how many rounds have been through the rifle (he's your buddy, right? He wouldn't lie?). Remove the bolt and see if it is dirty, rub your finger over the bolt face and the carrier key (the little 'stovepipe' on top of the bolt). Ask how many mags come w/ the weapon. Ask how the weapon is sighted (if they don't know, then it probably hasn't been shot that much). Look at the rear sight: it should be in the approx. center of the space (if you look closely, you can see some indexing lines). If it is way to one side or the other, I'd be suspicious. When you break the weapon open, the trigger assembly (actually the hammer) is exposed. Does it show wear from firing, or from being cocked by the bolt carrier? Does the bolt carrier show wear from riding back and forth in the upper receiver?

Good luck ...
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 5:48:52 PM EDT
JoeyD

There is a lot unknown about this rifle so it's hard for anyone to give you an idea on what to offer.

I'll give you 1 hypothetical that I'm familiar with.

If it's a basic A2 HBAR, 20" barrel and knobs on the rear site that make adjustments easy, it probably went for something like $650-$700 in 88. Since the ban, Sept 94, the price just about doubled. Today that rifle new in box would go for around $1300 or more. If it's used but in good to pristine condition it could bring $1100 fast. If the guy doesn't know any better and you don't care about him offer him $800 and play bumb. Say "gee I saw Bushmaster just like it for that brand new".
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 5:50:49 PM EDT
A pre-Ban in good to very good shape is worth from 1000-1500 depending on the model and number of Evil features. Excellent shape may pull up to 1750 and up, depending on the features. Look for Bayonet Lug, Flash Hider, etc. as well as barrel type-(light/Heavy/M4) twist rate, stock type (fixed or collapsible). It should still have original manual, box and accessories to qualify in the excellent category too. Various versions are more valuable, when you find out more specifics post again and you can better narrow down the value.

Link Posted: 2/5/2002 6:11:51 PM EDT
JoeyD....

We'll assume it's in mint/excellent condition if your buddy says so. We know it's a Colt and we know it's a pre-ban.

The cheapest pre-ban Colts, in that condition go for roughly $1,100. Those are usually Colt SP1's, made in the late 60's/early 70's.

Here's what I'd do. I'd call them up and ask if they can look on the mag well and tell you what it says under the Colt logo. I'd ask them what they would hope to sell it for. If they tell you, then you have a starting point to decide from. If they just don't know, then I'd start at $1000.00. I'd ask if that sounds like a fair price. If the gun IS mint, then you'd be getting a good deal. Probably better than good if it was in fact produced in the 80's.

If they want more than $1,100, then I'd post their asking price here and we'll see what the deal is. Good luck.
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 6:56:53 PM EDT
First off, remember one thing...

No one knows how smart or dumb you are 'till you open your mouth...

Tell the seller, you are just looking for an affordable rifle, and new AR's are going for $700+...

Explain that this will be your first AR-15, and you just want a decent rifle...

Don't say a friggin word about pre-ban / post-ban issues, you'd be surprised how many people don't know a thing about the differences in features, let alone the selling price difference...

There are plenty of $500 pre-ban AR's out there, we just have to find the "un-educated seller"...

On the other hand, if the seller knows what the rifle is worth, he may still sell it to you at a good price, because this is your "first" AR-15...

A little sweet talking & playing dumb & innocent will get you a long way sometimes...


Just my 2 cents...
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 7:22:30 PM EDT
Especially if he wants to get rid of it for what ever reason......or wants to give you a break........"back in the day"....one could buy them for around 400-500 dollars.....
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 7:24:44 PM EDT
M4 - I talked to me buddy he is going to try to get that info. He says that his father probably wants a $1000 for it. So I told him try for $800, pending my inspection of the rifle.

Dragracer_Art - Nice try, that was my original thought, but he knows what he has.

Thanks Help
JoeyD
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 8:17:24 PM EDT
Yeah, I figured he probably knew what he had. The people who own pre-ban AR's, who also have little idea what they're worth are few and very far between.

Dragracer_Art did have a good point though, and under different circumstances, I would suggest at least giving what he said a try.

$1000.00 for a Colt pre-ban from 88, in mint condition is a good deal. It's not an SP1 if it was made then, so it's got to be worth at least $1,200 or so if it's in the mint condition your buddy said. Personally, it's difficult to imagine a rifle that's been shot at any length in mint condition. That doesn't mean it's not in excellent condition, and it's still worth more than a grand in all likelyhood.

If it were me, and the AR was a late 80's Colt pre-ban in excellent to mint condition, I'd drop $1000.00 on it......rather quickly too I might add. The specific model name is less important than knowing the year it was made, combined with accurate condition description and the fact he wants $1000 for it. Whatever model it is, in that condition it's worth your money, that I know.
Link Posted: 2/5/2002 10:47:47 PM EDT
If it's in okay/great shape and only $1000, go for it.

It's a preban....

I picked up a used plain Jane M1A preban, with hard case, 5 20rnd mags & 1 5rnd mag for under $930.00 And the bore was clean and brite. I felt a little guilty...... only for a while... I got over it.
Link Posted: 2/6/2002 3:58:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JoeyD:
M4 - I talked to me buddy he is going to try to get that info. He says that his father probably wants a $1000 for it. So I told him try for $800, pending my inspection of the rifle.

Dragracer_Art - Nice try, that was my original thought, but he knows what he has.

Thanks Help
JoeyD



You mentioned that you intended to configure this rifle as an M4. Consider the added costs of replacement parts and professional gunsmithing fees to you total cost of this rifle. As collector's value goes once the rifle is altered the value of it will decrease(not original parts). Another consideration is what you intend to do with this rifle, use it regularly or more of a show piece. What the point of blasting away with a mint 80's Colt for $1200+(after parts and alterations)and loose value when you can get into a new M4 for around $400. [P:]
Link Posted: 2/6/2002 4:16:49 AM EDT
******************JOEY*******************
­
PLEASE READ THIS

PRE BAN RIFLES ARE ILLEGAL IN THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY! YOU CAN ONLY BUY POST BAN AR'S. DO NOT BUY THIS GUN OR EVEN POSSESS THIS GUN. YOU WILL HAVE UNINTENTIONALLY COMMITTED A FELONY CHARGE. THIS RIFLE WAS BANNED WHEN GOVERNOR FLORIO WAS IN OFFICE(BEFORE FEDERAL BAN). ITS LEGALITY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH FEDERAL LAWS, STATE REGULATIONS SUPERCEDE. THIS RIFLE MOSTLIKELY POSSESS A BAYONET LUG AND FLASH SUPPRESSOR WHICH MAKE IT ILLEGAL IN NJ. IF YOU PLANNED TO BUY THIS RIFLE OUT OF STATE AND BRING IT INTO NEW JERSEY NOW YOU HAVE BORKEN BOTH FEDERAL AND STATE LAWS. PLEASE PROCEED WITH CAUTION, MISTAKES LIKE THIS CAN CAUSE MORE HARM TO EVERYONE ELSE WHO WISHES TO POSSESS LEGAL AR STYLE WEAPONS IN OUR F'ED UP STATE OF NEW JERSEY
Link Posted: 2/6/2002 8:05:01 AM EDT
JoeyD

This is the most recent legislation I have found concerning NJ Gun Laws. These laws refers to ANY assault type of rifle. Please check out link link, so you do not get yourself in any trouble.

http://www.state.nj.us/lps/dcj/agguide/3assltf.pdf

PS. Fines can be up to $10,000 and ten years in prison.

Patrick

Please email me if you have any questions.
Link Posted: 2/6/2002 9:29:19 AM EDT
Guess that puts this topic top rest. Ever consider a nice sling shot? Just kidding.
Link Posted: 2/6/2002 10:14:52 AM EDT
AAAAAAHHHHHH !!!!!!!!!!!

I really really hate this state. Soon its going to illegal to have a pencil because you could poke some one's eye out. Well I guess that puts and end to that idea. Looks like I'm going to have to buy a new bushmaster. I think me and my guns need to move to PA.

PatrickS - Thanks for the heads up.

PS: sling shots are ban in NJ too........
Link Posted: 2/6/2002 10:29:34 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/6/2002 11:12:29 AM EDT
You gotta move, dude. Living anywhere you can't own a pre-ban; just ain't living.
Link Posted: 2/6/2002 11:17:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PatrickS:
What the point of blasting away with a mint 80's Colt for $1200+(after parts and alterations)and loose value when you can get into a new M4 for around $400. [P:]



First off, every rifle should be fired and used, $1200 isn't a big enough investment to worry about.

Second, I have never seen a new M4 AR15 for anywhere close to $400!!!! Try $650-$800.

Third, You earlier refered to gunsmithing cost when changing out an AR15 upper. If someone can't figure out how to push to simple pins then they shouldn't even own a firearm.

Based on the info above I would highly recommend that Joey check the laws for himself. If it was me I would just buy the damn thing and keep my mouth shut........but that's me.

Sgtar15
Link Posted: 2/6/2002 6:35:57 PM EDT
After doing my homework, hours of reading through NJ legal B.S. it looks like I'm sh*t out of luck. They are very much on NJ's no no list. Looks like I'm going to have to settle for a post-ban, until I get out of this communist state. I went to some local shops today and found a 16" Shorty Bushmaster for $899 and a 20" DCM Bushmaster for $1299. What do you guys think about those prices ?

JoeyD
Link Posted: 2/6/2002 8:29:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JoeyD:
After doing my homework, hours of reading through NJ legal B.S. it looks like I'm sh*t out of luck. They are very much on NJ's no no list. Looks like I'm going to have to settle for a post-ban, until I get out of this communist state. I went to some local shops today and found a 16" Shorty Bushmaster for $899 and a 20" DCM Bushmaster for $1299. What do you guys think about those prices ?

JoeyD



You could probably do a little better on those Bushmaster prices on the net. Then again, when it comes to guns I'm somewhat impulsive(when I know what I want, then see it face to face I have a hard time keeping the plastic in my wallet.) I'd probably feel a little better about inspecting a local gun that I can examine then a "net gun".

That's not to say I haven't bought firearms on the net, I have and with great success so far. Personally, as far as the guns you're looking at, I'd stick w/ the 16". I like carbines. It really depends on what you want it for. To start, I'd keep the price low, but with a quality weapon, like Bushmaster. Down the road, when you determine exactly what kind of AR suits you the best, just buy a second upper. It's a 30 second conversion from a carbine to a tack driving target rifle. The possibilities are limited only by your imagination......and.....as you know.....your states gun laws.

What do you plan on using this rifle for? That would determine what direction you should go in.
Link Posted: 2/7/2002 11:48:58 PM EDT
Well I took the plunge today :). I bought a new bushy 16". I can't wait to get out on the range.

JoeyD :)

Link Posted: 2/8/2002 7:26:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JoeyD:
Well I took the plunge today :). I bought a new bushy 16". I can't wait to get out on the range.

JoeyD :)




Welcome to the club..........
Link Posted: 2/9/2002 1:16:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

Originally Posted By PatrickS:
What the point of blasting away with a mint 80's Colt for $1200+(after parts and alterations)and loose value when you can get into a new M4 for around $400. [P:]



First off, every rifle should be fired and used, $1200 isn't a big enough investment to worry about.

Second, I have never seen a new M4 AR15 for anywhere close to $400!!!! Try $650-$800.

Third, You earlier refered to gunsmithing cost when changing out an AR15 upper. If someone can't figure out how to push to simple pins then they shouldn't even own a firearm.

Based on the info above I would highly recommend that Joey check the laws for himself. If it was me I would just buy the damn thing and keep my mouth shut........but that's me.

Sgtar15



First,My bad about the $400 for the M4, typo.

Secondly, I included a link straight to NJ State's website concerning the laws( check it out!)

Third, any preban is illegal in NJ, that includes put a new post ban M4 upper on a preban lower and JoeyD did not mention changing uppers. So if you would have read the entire post, you would have realized that.

Fourth, mistakes like that effect my rights to possess these types of arms in NJ.

And last what's the point of possessing an AR that you can not even shoot without the worry of fines and jail time.
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