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Posted: 1/30/2002 10:15:26 AM EDT
Mao itchin for a new gun. Mao sick of AR-15 mouse gun. Mao want to reach out and touch someone, so here are my questions concerning the M1A:

1. Is there anyone out there that makes NEW M1A rifles besides Springfield? I'm biased against that company because of known issues with their Brazilian 1911 components. They apparently make their receivers cast, which is uncalled for on a $1500+ rifle.

2. Can I install a NEW flash suppressor on a post ban rifle? I'd like a Smith Enterprises Vortex.

3. This glass bedding thing puzzles me. With aluminum bedding technology availble today, why bother with glass when it will wear out as you pull the gun in and out of the stock for cleaning. Even their rear-lugged M25 is glass bedded. How much of a pain is it to replace the glass bedding on McMillen stocks? If it's something I can do routinely at a low cost, I won't care, otherwise, a DSA FAL may be a better option.

Thanks guys, you've all helped me out in the past a lot.

themao
Link Posted: 1/30/2002 10:29:54 AM EDT
First ask yerself -

"Do I want a match rifle, or a battle rifle?"

You can have a flash suppressor on an M1A, but not an FAL, becasue of the pistol grip.

Springfield is about the only show in town, unless you REALLY want to pay thru the nose, and get a Fulton Armory receiver, and build up from there.

I think some of the Armscopr receivers are decent, but get ready to shell some $$$$$$.

Replacing glass bedding will run you $200 -250 a pop. I supopose they don't use pillar bedding becuase maybe its not legal for service rifle.

If I had to guess, I'd say you want the DSA.

get their "kit gun." It is VERY nice.

Mine can shoot 3" groups at 200 yds with ball ammo. Not bad for $800. Recoil is minimal also. $5 mags. Integral bipod. Evil black color.

what more do you need to know???

Link Posted: 1/30/2002 10:43:10 AM EDT
Yeah, but the FAL lacks the flash suppressor. I really want one. So, replacing glass bedding is like buying a new stock eh? That blows big time. I plan on using this just for target shooting. There's nowhere around where I live that does service rifle, although something like Springfield's M1A "Loaded" gun would be nice cause it is practically service rifle ready. I'd replace the sights on it with their 1/2 MOA national match ones. That rifle lacks the glass bedding, but I'm sure accuracy suffers as a result.

I really wonder if I'd be better off getting a bolt action of some sort. Damn, I don't know. I have a lot of time before May to decide though, cause that's when I'll be able to hit the range again.

themao
Link Posted: 1/30/2002 10:48:56 AM EDT
Don't get caught in the "I MUST have a flash suppressor" trap.

DSA's proprietary muzzle brake is MORE functional than a flash suppressor.

How often do you find yourself shooting at night, wanting to minimize your flash signature from enemy troops??

then....

How often would a recoil reducing brake be useful to your, maximizing fast repeatable hits on target???

I think sometimes we get in the mode of "The gov't says I can't have it, therefore I MUST MUST MUST have it"

When there are superior products out there, that will benefit you EVERY time you pull the trigger.

My $0.02

Link Posted: 1/30/2002 12:07:58 PM EDT
What is a Fulton Armory receiver?
I own a bunch of different makes of Semi M14 type rifles.You can get a very nice battle rifle on a forged ChiCom receiver with proper headspace and hardening for $1000.
cpermd
Link Posted: 1/30/2002 12:13:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cpermd:
What is a Fulton Armory receiver?

cpermd



I was under the impression they had their own deal going.

I might be wrong.

Link Posted: 1/30/2002 12:38:17 PM EDT
The Polytech version shoots OK and is cheaper. You don't need to worry about glass bedding unless you get the top line rifles like the Super Match. Standard GI model does not have it. I love the Springfield. I have owned FAL's and G3's, but the M1A takes the cake for me.
Link Posted: 1/30/2002 1:06:54 PM EDT
It sounds like you might want to shoot some CMP matches also. If thats the case the MIA would be a much better choice than a FAL for that purpose. And give you a serious use .308 also. If you shoot CMP matches you will want your gun glass bedded. And you can use steel bed or alum bed compounds. The glass bedding is not a big issue from a cleaning stand point. You can shoot a match M1A many thousands of rounds without pulling thr action from the stock. I would only pull my action once every match season. And I would have it surface glassed at the end of every season. About $25.00 thru the gunsmith i used for that purpose. FYI Gizzmo
Link Posted: 1/30/2002 1:16:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2002 1:24:09 PM EDT by Major-Murphy]
If you go Chinese, go Polytech.
They make one of the best receivers available.
Then have Smith enterprise fix the problems.
Fulton's good for parts, NOT for chinese smithing.
Buy an M-K receiver, and we'll all be jealous.

www.m-kspecialties.com/
www.springfieldarmory.com/
www.fultonarmory.com/
www.smithenterprise.com/
Link Posted: 1/30/2002 6:49:36 PM EDT
Fulton Armory does not make their own M1A receivers. There's nothing wrong with a cast M1A receiver, despite what you might hear. MKS? Yeah, right. How many 'new, forged receivers' have they delivered so far? Or are they too busy fighting ATF over all the re-welds that are getting seized?
Link Posted: 1/30/2002 7:12:25 PM EDT
Isn't MK Specialties building new forged semi auto receivers?

SRM
Link Posted: 1/30/2002 7:17:15 PM EDT
If you want accuracy in a .308 semi-auto, look into the AR10. The M1A is accurate, but it's a lot more work.
Link Posted: 1/30/2002 7:28:02 PM EDT
Entrepise has recievers as well but I have never seen one in person dont know if anyone else has built on one yet.
www.entreprise.com
Link Posted: 1/30/2002 11:04:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Major-Murphy:
If you go Chinese, go Polytech.
They make one of the best receivers available.
Then have Smith enterprise fix the problems.



Smith Enterprise will have you heat treat a non existant problem. In 1993, the then DCM performed a metalurgical analysis of a Chinese receiver and concluded that the forged receiver was a AISI-5100 series steel. Furthermore, the surface hardness was 56-58 RC which was equivalent to a USGI M14.
Link Posted: 1/30/2002 11:07:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sparky315:
There's nothing wrong with a cast M1A receiver, despite what you might hear.



For the most part, you are right. However, there have been documented instances when the cast receiver failed catastrophically, the most notable being at the National Matches in the 70's.
Link Posted: 1/31/2002 5:09:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FNC80:

Originally Posted By Major-Murphy:
If you go Chinese, go Polytech.
They make one of the best receivers available.
Then have Smith enterprise fix the problems.



Smith Enterprise will have you heat treat a non existant problem. In 1993, the then DCM performed a metalurgical analysis of a Chinese receiver and concluded that the forged receiver was a AISI-5100 series steel. Furthermore, the surface hardness was 56-58 RC which was equivalent to a USGI M14.



Yeah, but they'll ask you first, and you can just say "no".
Fulton will customize a GI bolt, to fit your Polytech.
Smith machines you receiver to accept all GI parts.

Obviously, the Smith solution is better, because you end up with a weapon that accepts all GI parts.
If you go the Fulton route, you will need to go to them, and have it done all over, if ever you need to replace the bolt.
Link Posted: 1/31/2002 7:40:54 AM EDT
Has anyone actually seen a Springfield receiver fail?
Link Posted: 1/31/2002 7:47:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By shooter505:
Has anyone actually seen a Springfield receiver fail?



Actually there was a case where an M1A went Kaboom. See M1A Kaboom! for details.

Cast receivers, while they are strong..are not as strong as a Drop Forged Receiver which the original M14's used.


Link Posted: 1/31/2002 8:17:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bostonterrier97:

Originally Posted By shooter505:
Has anyone actually seen a Springfield receiver fail?



Actually there was a case where an M1A went Kaboom. See M1A Kaboom! for details.

Cast receivers, while they are strong..are not as strong as a Drop Forged Receiver which the original M14's used.



I forget a few years ago, some company was selling a 1 run of specially forged M14-type recivers, and at that time they wanted something like $800US for an stripped receiver.
Link Posted: 1/31/2002 8:21:41 AM EDT
Very interesting article Boston. You will note however that the conclusion was that the barrel (which was apparently not USGI or Springfield in origin) was made of extremely substandard steel and that is what caused the catastrophic failure of the rifle. I'm willing to bet that such a failure in barrel steel would also have a negative effect on a USGI forged receiver as well.

The lesson here is that you shouldn't put cheap shit on your rifle.
Link Posted: 1/31/2002 8:52:33 AM EDT
Mao,

A SAR48 (preban FAL) will give you a flash suppressor, bayonet, and any other evil item you want for about the same price as an M1A from Springfield. Cheap mags, too.
Link Posted: 1/31/2002 9:08:21 AM EDT
The only parts on a ChiCom to think about are the
1.Bolt-Seldom are they soft but all you need is a NoGo HS gauge and check it each time you shoot if you are worried.
2.Trigger group-Soft and almost always need a USGI replacement.
3.Rear sight-Soft and inaccurate.Replace with a M1 Garand sight.I use Beretta or Breda on all my ChiComs I build.
This puts you into a very nice forged receiver M14 type for no more than $700.
You will love it.
cpermd
Link Posted: 1/31/2002 6:08:53 PM EDT
Words of wisdom.
Link Posted: 1/31/2002 7:02:16 PM EDT
Does anyone remember when Smith (it was Smith Enterprises, I'm pretty sure) used to make forged receivers? Maybe 8 - 10 years ago? What is the story on those, and why did they stop?
Link Posted: 1/31/2002 7:22:05 PM EDT
Thanks for the help guys. I have a feeling that with all the money I'd drop into one of these things, I might as well spend $2k to get a HS-Precision varmit rifle. That glass bedding thing really turns me off, yet I don't want GI accuracy. That m-kspecialties rifle looks good. I'd like to see how one of their GI grade rifles does in accuracy terms. I'd buy one of those. I REFUSE to get a mao isse Chinese made weapon. themao is the ANTI-MAO, not a true mao in the pure sense.

Will I ever get to shoot CMP? God only knows. I'm going off to med school next year, and if I end up at U Chicago or Baylor in Houston, I can blow that opportunity out the door.

themao
Link Posted: 1/31/2002 8:35:48 PM EDT
The M1A kaboom mentioned was caused by inferior steel in what appears to be an unknown brand aftermarket barrel. The fact that the receiver was cast was irrelevant. I guarantee you a forged one would not have held together, either.

Before you think about ordering ANYTHING from MK-Specialties, go ask some questions in the M14 forum at www.gunandknife.com. Yeah, brand-new forged receivers sound good, but I have yet to hear of anyone actually receiving one. Lots of promises have come out of MKS for quite some time, not a lot of delivery. I personally wouldn't risk it.

And I talked to Clint McKee at Fulton about the Entreprise receivers- he said they are not very good, and he won't build a gun on one. Go to www.arizonaresponsesystems.com and look at Mark Graham's notes on Entreprise's FAL receivers. Gotta figure their M1A receivers are about the same.
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