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3/20/2017 5:03:23 PM
Posted: 1/24/2002 3:16:24 PM EDT
Saw it in the new American Rifleman and went to their website. One of his rifles looks like what I'm looking for: accurate, quality and a seemingly reasonable price. I've got a 3x9 Zeiss to strap on it so it should be an excellent shooter!
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 3:33:11 PM EDT
Buy one and enjoy. I don't know of anyone else giving a guarantee of 1/2 MOA or better for @ $2 grand. Get the configuration that you truely want and smile. Anyone gives you any grief.....shoot groups against them (if you are as good as the equipment) and smile bigger.

Dave S
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 4:01:17 PM EDT
If you got the bucks do it, for we may die tomorrow! I caught some flack around here for buying a Wilson Combat UT-15 and my only response is....neener, neener, neener!
It's a great rifle and I have already gotten more than my moneys worth in enjoyment out of it.
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 4:02:16 PM EDT
This looking like a "GA" convention!
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 4:44:02 PM EDT
B27 - how do you compare the Wilson and the Baer?
I want a gun that I can't second guess. Pride in ownership is part of the equation too. Of course, should the boat people come back, I want to be prepared for that too!
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 6:31:05 PM EDT
They tested the Les Baer in the June 2001 issue of Guns magazine.They shot 30 consecutive 5 shot groups at 100 yards. The average of all 30 groups was 0.475 inches.
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 7:28:55 PM EDT
Someone say Georgia Convention?
Link Posted: 1/24/2002 9:42:25 PM EDT
One of my friends has that rifle. I shoot it whenver he gives me the chance to (meaning when he is generous). It's awesome. Please get it with the 20" barrel at least. It is the ultimate varmit rifle, if you want a semi-auto and have the money. I don't know if there are too many bolt actioned rifles that can top that gun's accuracy in .223. You can't go wrong if you get it.

Lastly, PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEE get a good scope with it...at least a Leupold 4.5-14x. My friend put on a 6.5-20x, and I still think it deserves better.

themao
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 1:36:24 AM EDT
Just out of curiosity. Les got his rep in 1911's. He's a relative new comer to AR's. Wouldn't you think a CLE or GSE built AR would be money better spent. Also, while manufacturers advertise fantastic groups, can they really deliver. Sounds like you who have fired that AR, are convinced it works as promised. Does it, with out of the box ammo???
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 4:37:26 AM EDT
gnfiter2 - good questions. I would assume some of the same principles apply to rifles and pistols.
Themao - I've got an old Zeiss 3X9 that has done nothing other than sit on an unused .300 Wthby. Mag for 15 years.

TO YOU GA. GUYS - do you know of a decent gun shop in north Atlanta? I'm tired of handing large amounts of cash to people like Roswell Gun who act like they are doing me a favor to take my money. The new shop, Guns and Gear so far doesn't seem to be any different. I'm gonna check out Bernie's before I buy. Also, there is an FFL close to me (on Holcomb Bridge road) I am going to check out.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 6:22:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/25/2002 6:29:35 AM EDT by MatthewDaugherty]
I usually go to Bernies for my guns, but not for ammunition. Adventure Outdoors on South Cobb Drive has some decent prices to on firearms. Ed's near Kennesaw is a rip off. For ammunition if I just want a couple of boxes of white box winchester 9mm or .223 its usually Sports Authority or Wal-Mart.

I almost forgot about Dixie Ammo Dump in Winder Georgia. Cliff Brown is a stand up shoot it to you straight guy. If you don't need something in a hurry he can get just about anything at a good price. Don't know is telephone number offhand, just to a search for Dixie Ammo Dump.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 6:56:04 AM EDT
Thanks Matthew I'll check those guys. I haven't been to David's Gun Room in a few years so I may go there too.

Looking at the Wilson Combat site the TPR-15 really got my attention. It looks perfect for me.

Anybody got a clue as to how it might compare to the Baer rifles?
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 8:35:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gnfiter2:
Just out of curiosity. Les got his rep in 1911's. He's a relative new comer to AR's. Wouldn't you think a CLE or GSE built AR would be money better spent. Also, while manufacturers advertise fantastic groups, can they really deliver. Sounds like you who have fired that AR, are convinced it works as promised. Does it, with out of the box ammo???



With a scope set at 6x, shot a group at 200 yards with Winchester Q3131a that you could cover with a quarter, and I'm an IPSC shooter, not a benchrest rifleman. Undoubtably somebody else could do better, particularly with match grade ammo.

I highly recommend his guns, both pistols and rifles.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 8:50:01 AM EDT
10mmFan-
I have never shot or even handled one of the Baer rifles so I can't say how they compare. MY UT-15 was guaranteed by Wilson to shoot 1 MOA or less at 100yds. and it does just that even with non-match ammo and the Aimpoint Comp I have on it instead of a scope.
The trick about buying from Bernies www.bernies-sports.com is to become a customer and then wait for them to send you notification of a sale. They will do it without fail. Great service and selection but you have to keep your eye out for the good prices.
For good cheap practice ammo consider georgia-arms.com in Carrollton. I just drive over there usually instead of doing a mailorder. Great people. Once stayed open late for me to pick up a couple cases of .303 British they had saved for me.
Finally, if any of you guys are looking for a gun club to join please check us out at southrivergunclub.com
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 9:22:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 10mmFan:
Thanks Matthew I'll check those guys. I haven't been to David's Gun Room in a few years so I may go there too.

Looking at the Wilson Combat site the TPR-15 really got my attention. It looks perfect for me.

Anybody got a clue as to how it might compare to the Baer rifles?



I've fired both the Les Baer & Wilson Combat AR's within the last two weeks.

Here's what I noticed in a nut shell...

The Wilson would be my first choice. From a purely cosmetic basis, it looks more refined, better attention to detail, all be it very minor differences.

In addition to that, the trigger pull on the Wilson seemed slightly more crisp, and just felt exactly as I would want a trigger to pull for an AR. The Baer wasn't bad at all, still, very minor differences.

Both were being fired at 100 yard targets off of a bench. For me, the Wilson grouped slightly better. I'm not a competition shooter, and the accuracy could have just been "one of those things" that day.

If I were throwing down that kind of cash on a new AR, it would go to Wilson Combat.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 9:29:43 AM EDT
B27....

That place Bernies Sports web page looks like a great firearms shop! Wish South Florida had something to compare to that selection!

Anyone care to go out on a limb and create a decent "black rifle" shop in South Florida? Trust me, I alone will keep you in business.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 11:31:28 AM EDT
M4-
Yep. Bernie specializes in politically incorrect guns and usually has a suprisingly large stock on hand. Usually has a few DSA FAL's in stock and that is uncommon.
Ya just gotta remember what I said earlier about waiting for a sale.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 11:40:38 AM EDT
If you are in GA give Frank White a call in FL. He will build you an AR that will go 1/2 moa all day long, done right for at least 500 bucks less. Just get your upper from him and then buy a lower and put in a good trigger,jewel for instance. Some of the stuff you pay for from Baer is just do-dads, like a Ti firing pin or chromed bolt carrier.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 12:11:49 PM EDT
I'll admit I'm a sucker for do-dads. At least if they appear to be somewhat functional and don't interfere with the intended operation. I'm leaning hard toward the Wilson. Real hard.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 2:03:33 PM EDT
So, if one was to get a Wilson, Les Baer, or Knights Armement sr-15, what would one recommend?
Anyone care to chime in?
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 2:36:34 PM EDT
Bean, so far I'm hearing more good things about the Wilson. The model I want comes with an 18" barrell which I like.

I'm gonna go to Bernies tomorrow.
Are these the type of gun that can be ordered through a Shotgun News seller and sent to a local FLL or is that a bad idea?
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 2:48:45 PM EDT
Say hey to Maria and Jeff for me. And Sarge the dog who is getting amazingly fat.
Too bad you missed the end of the year clearance. I got a SIG P220ST and just barely broke $700 including tax.
Link Posted: 1/25/2002 8:21:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bean-Bandit:
So, if one was to get a Wilson, Les Baer, or Knights Armement sr-15, what would one recommend?
Anyone care to chime in?



All 3 are great rifles. The Knights comes w/ an RAS included, if you like that sort of thing(I do), but has the most rediculous fake flash hider I've ever seen permanently attached. Can't believe Knights would do that....but they did.

I'd take the Wilson Combat AR. As for the high end AR market, I've seen every indication that W.C. produces the best over all final product.

Again, all 3 are real nice.
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 12:05:55 PM EDT
So the wilson is the way to go huh?

Im debating getting one of those or a m96.

I really want the m96, but my farmiliarity with the m16 base and its ergonomics mkae me think twice.

How much better is the wilson compared to the knights? are we knit picking here, or are there definate non subtle things that would improve function?
just curious, as it would be worth it to buy the wilson most likely even if they were even, due to wilsons outstanding customer service.

thanks 10mm and m4 for responding,
k.s.
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 12:45:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/26/2002 12:50:18 PM EDT by M4]

Originally Posted By Bean-Bandit:
So the wilson is the way to go huh?

Im debating getting one of those or a m96.

I really want the m96, but my farmiliarity with the m16 base and its ergonomics mkae me think twice.

How much better is the wilson compared to the knights? are we knit picking here, or are there definate non subtle things that would improve function?
just curious, as it would be worth it to buy the wilson most likely even if they were even, due to wilsons outstanding customer service.

thanks 10mm and m4 for responding,
k.s.



The differences with the AR's mentioned are better off being put in the Wilson vs Baer context. Knights rifles are GREAT rifles, don't get me wrong. But they aren't an in-house, hand made every step of the way type of gun. The are exceptional guns...their components are all top notch, but they have been cranking out AR's for as long as AR's have been made....pretty much. Gene Stoner after all is the founder of their line.

Wilson and Baer have more recently come in to the AR fold. Much more recently. They have modeled their rifles in a slightly less traditional way. They specialize in a very fine tuned, hand crafted final product. From "exotic" finishes, to a whole range of other touches that are really only found on custom rifles. Knights is more of a high end factory rifle, while the others are custom designed.

As for the M96 vs Wilson AR's, you're talking about two totally different catagories of weapon. One is a Ferrari, while the other is a Hummer, or something like that. One is hand crafted and fine tuned, highly reliable and hand made, while the other is sort of a work horse hybrid utilitarian rifle.

Personally, I'd take a Wilson AR over an M96 in a heartbeat, but that's just me.

My characterization maybe could have been put better, some might agrue what I've said to some extent. It's a matter of personal preference, budget and shooting needs. All are guns you would be happy with.

Link Posted: 1/26/2002 1:21:20 PM EDT
Les Baer looks good! Your thoughts?

I saw a picture of him once. Didn't do a thing for me.
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 1:43:04 PM EDT
drf - he's a beaut if he builds a gun that blows my skirt up...so to speak. :)

Alright, I've heard enough to know the Wilson TPR15 will make me happy. I feel confident enough to buy it sight unseen.

Now comes the hard part. Finding a gun dealer in the Atlanta area that has enough brains to take my money without making me resent having to do business them.

So I go to the Wilson site and note the four dealers closest to me. Only one actually has a gun in stock. Bernies. I tell the guy what I'm looking for and he's not really familiar with the different models. Finally he tells me he has a carbine UDL15 (which I might buy).

When I asked him the price he quoted me $1,724 which he says is list and that's "his" price. I inquired about when the gun might be on sale and he said, "maybe in a month or two". I inform him that I'm going to pay cash and would that make a difference. Nope. Doesn't matter. Cash, check, credit card. Never even asked my name muchless for the order. Obviously this guy's coffee was getting cold.

I called the other three and the attitude and sales effort was about the same. What the hell is wrong with these guys? It's been like this in Atlanta for 30 years!

I'm gonna buy the TPR15 but I'm not going to buy it around here. I guess my next option is Shotgun news.

Are gun dealers in every city this stupid? Or are they making so much money that they just don't give a damn? (When Jim Carter, Gun Unlimited (?) was in business here in Atlanta he was the lone exception to this idiocy that I've encountered)
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 2:54:02 PM EDT
That doesn't sound like the kind of service someone should get when buying a new gun. Especially an $1800.00 gun.

Do searches on the net, you'd be surprised at how many places would want your business...then transfer it to an FFL near you, doesn't have to be a shop, just a guy w/ an FFL and a reasonable transfer fee.

Link Posted: 1/26/2002 2:58:29 PM EDT
10mmFan-
I'm confused. (There's a shocker.) Did you really expect them to dicker with you on the price of that particular rifle? It's not like it has been sitting around for months. That rifle was not there when I ordered my SA M-1 two weeks ago and probably won't be there when I pick it up sometime around the first.
What I mean is, why sell it to you at a lower price when someone will undoubtedly buy it at MSRP fairly soon?
PLEASE don't take this as me trying to get on your case, I'm just surprised.
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 3:16:47 PM EDT
hey 10mm,

ever think of buying it from someone out of state and ffl'ing it?

I bought a wilson 2 tone protector from Greg at Mombassa trading company. They are pretty good guys and have the wilson ar's at the appropriate price.

Hell, they are even mentioned in the new wilson catalogue.

thanks again,
k.s.

Link Posted: 1/26/2002 3:55:32 PM EDT
B27 - No offense taken at all.
My dissatisfaction is with the whole guy buying process in Atlanta. The price is not the issue so much as the attitude. Few savvy small business people will balk at giving you a piece of the greedy-assed credit card companie's cut. But that's not the point either. The point is that the guy never said, "You got $2K in your lap?" There was no effort whatsoever to get the sale. The cash discount question was a GIANT clue to the seller that I am a serious buyer!

Also I know they had a sale that just ended. He's got a Wilson in stock that he could EASILY enticed me to buy. I'VE GOT THE BUG BAD!! I could be playing with my new toy right now. All he had to do was say, "Look pal, you missed the sale but come on over and I'll work with you".
He would have between $2,000 and $3,000 in his cash register and one less piece of replaceable, non-interest bearing inventory in his stock. Get my ass in the door! Correct me if the item is no longer available and thus could possibly increase in value or his bank pays him to borrow money.

I just don't understand these gun dealers. Supposedly the retail gun biz is competitive. I owned a business for more than 30 years that went nose to nose with Wal*Mart, Sams, Costco and Sears, just to name a few, (as well as every Yahoo with a $2,000 line of credit and a dream) every single day and I can guarantee you I would not have lasted one year much less 30 if I had done business the way these guys do!

Bernies lost a good customer today. Not a potential customer. A customer. A sale. Cash.

I know this is the acceptable way of doing business in America today and I should not be surprised. Maybe gun dealers were actually ahead of their time. If so, I apologize to all gun dealers and will learn to live without a Wilson. I'll just buy a bunch of over-priced fishing stuff. At least Johnnie Morris knows how to treat people!

Damn, I feel better. :)
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 4:07:04 PM EDT
10mmFan-
Thanks for the response!
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 4:57:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gnfiter2:
Just out of curiosity. Les got his rep in 1911's. He's a relative new comer to AR's. Wouldn't you think a CLE or GSE built AR would be money better spent. Also, while manufacturers advertise fantastic groups, can they really deliver. Sounds like you who have fired that AR, are convinced it works as promised. Does it, with out of the box ammo???



You have a point. Those "space guns" Frank White builds would probably be a better value. I've never shot one of White's guns, but I've heard they're pretty awesome.

I did shoot Les Baer's gun, and only put 55 grain varmit loads (Hornday V-max bullets if I remembered). I'd have to say that the gun shot better than me. From a bench with a bipod, I was able to get 0.5-0.85 in. groups with it. My friend can put them down under 0.5 in., but that's only because he has about ten more years of shooting experience than I do. As far as Q3131A Win USA or cheap surplus, I have no clue. However, if I could put $2000 down for a rifle, I doubt I'd used that stuff. I'd either shoot reloads (which is what my friend does) or I'd buy Black Hills new.

themao
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 4:59:08 PM EDT
Forgot to add, we were shooting at 100 yards. I had the scope all the way up at 20x cause I'm blind and I suck.

themao
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 5:05:03 PM EDT
Hey!! The guys at B&B Guns are pretty good to deal with. I bought a Glock from them and they have done 4 FFL transfers on lowers for me. Hell all you got to do is ask. They have one guy who is kind of a dick but the other two guys there are very cool. I will continue doing business with them. All you have to do is talk to them and they are easy to get along with. Worst case senario buy the gun direct and get them to give you a FFL letter to transfer it on.

Link Posted: 1/26/2002 5:47:27 PM EDT
Mac, who is B&B? I'm buying Mon. somehow, somewhere, some way! I want my toy!
FAL next! Pretty sure that one's coming from Arizona Exchange.
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 6:03:58 PM EDT
B&B guns is Guns and Gear on Holcomb Bridge across from HOOTERS. They are good people. I have not done a ton of business with them but they have let me do transfers on stuff they dont stock(AR15 lowers). Just go in and talk to them. You may have talked to the dick before. The other 2 guys are cool as hell!

Link Posted: 1/26/2002 6:05:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HighlandMac:
B&B guns is Guns and Gear on Holcomb Bridge across from HOOTERS. They are good people. I have not done a ton of business with them but they have let me do transfers on stuff they dont stock(AR15 lowers). Just go in and talk to them. You may have talked to the dick before. The other 2 guys are cool as hell!




They dont stock LesBaer so I am sure they would let you buy it and transfer it through them!
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 8:03:27 PM EDT
Mac - that was the first place I went when this bug bit me about two or three weeks ago. I've been in there three times and never has the single guy behind the counter had the time or brains to speak to me. I'm gonna have a hard time rewarding his incompetence. I'm glad that he has more business than he can handle but that's a problem he will have to solve without my multi-thousand dollar contribution.

Maybe we should open a gun shop in the north Fulton area and run it like a "real" business. That seems to be a concept that no gun dealer in the area can comprehend.

You know, something just struck me. Maybe I should walk in these gun shops with a couple thousand dollars scotch taped to my forehead and a sign that says "PLEASE TAKE MY MONEY".

Screw it. I'll find somebody that needs the business.
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 9:30:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 10mmFan:
Mac - that was the first place I went when this bug bit me about two or three weeks ago. I've been in there three times and never has the single guy behind the counter had the time or brains to speak to me. I'm gonna have a hard time rewarding his incompetence. I'm glad that he has more business than he can handle but that's a problem he will have to solve without my multi-thousand dollar contribution.

Maybe we should open a gun shop in the north Fulton area and run it like a "real" business. That seems to be a concept that no gun dealer in the area can comprehend.

You know, something just struck me. Maybe I should walk in these gun shops with a couple thousand dollars scotch taped to my forehead and a sign that says "PLEASE TAKE MY MONEY".

Screw it. I'll find somebody that needs the business.



10MM....

I support what you've said 100%. I also support people who promote shooting sports and rights any way I can. I have noticed that there is a certain attitude with some folks who sell guns. Either the "I sell guns, and I'm on the big boy side of the counter, and you don't mean squat". That attitude really just amazes me. It's lacking the most basic customer service qualities, and it often seems based on the fact that gun shops aren't a dime a dozen, so you can be a semi-prick to whoever you want. It's not only unprofessional, it's flat out stupid.

Customer service, to me at least, stands out immediately as a qualifier towards either a professional business or a chump business, no matter what they happen to sell, guns included. There are definately those guys who act like they're doing you a huge favor by just answering the phone, or simply just hanging out behind the counter with the 1911 on their belt as proof of their qualifacations.

What impresses me are shops that deal with you like your business is what puts the bread and butter on their table, and it's important and professional to deal with you in a helpful, professional way. Not like they're doing YOU a favor. I don't expect people to bow before me, that's moronic. I do expect that MY hard earned cash and my decision to spend it in THEIR business is recognized in a professional and reasonable way.

I've had occasion to walk away from a very convenient gun shop, and drive 45 minutes out of my way to another based entirely on the fact that the employees were idiots at the first shop. I didn't buy ammo from them, I didn't buy squat. I gave them several chances to show professionalism, and when they didn't, I walked. It's that simple.

In the business I'm in, as in almost any other, I provide professionalism and respect. Its as basic as basic gets. Can't do it for me? Cool. See ya. It's called business 101, and it aint that tough to figure out. Most shops have a couple of people running the counters. I expect the owners to care enough about their customers to place professionals in those positions. If they choose not to, then I choose to walk, whether they sell cars, milk, or guns, makes no difference.
Link Posted: 1/27/2002 4:48:05 AM EDT
M4 - The single biggest problem and the leading contributor to the consistently poor sales effort in gun stores is, as you stated, the people behind the counter. These "salesmen" are gun people and not retail people. Yeah they can tell you the difference between a 10mm and .40 S&W (if they are in the mood) but they have absolutely no retail knowledge.

Another part of the problem is the apparent lack of competition. I'm constantly reading or hearing that the gun business is tough but maybe it's only tough because the typical gun shop doesn't have a clue about how to run a small business.

One more rant about their supposed competition. Gun shops compete with each other. They remind me of country club golf shops in that their only competition is each other. (I'm talking specifically about the high-end country club golf equipment buyer as opposed to the average golf shopper.) They can legitimately whine about competition when Wal*Mart, Costco, Sams etc. decide they want a chunk of the business. The new sellers wouldn't offer any better service but they would force the mfg to sell to them at a price differential that is roughly the equivalent of the guns shop's current mark up. Illegal but SOP.
But that's a price discrimination subject for another day.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 6:43:58 PM EDT
Les Baer's are the ONLY AR's made from the current military prints and made exactly to the print. I looked at everybodys AR's at the SHOW Show...nothing comes close to a Baer !
Probably why SPECOPS using BEAR M-4 in Afghanistan......The only rifle to pass the accuracy tests as a sniper rifle.
Knight, Wilson et-al ALL FAILED THE TESTS .
The 16" BAER M-4 shoots under 2.5" at 500 yards.
....and the QMI Gold Titanium will shrink the groups of any AR by a minimum of 20%.
On the Stoner SR-25 it makes them shoot sub-moa...a real improvement.
Link Posted: 4/23/2002 7:25:10 PM EDT
I'm still waiting. I ordered mine 3 months ago!
Link Posted: 5/25/2002 12:31:48 PM EDT
I asked gasgunner, a noted AR upper builder, about putting together a long-barrelled AR upper honed for accuracy. He suggested that I start with a Baer upper receiver and go from there. Pretty good endorsement for Baer in my book.

I don't think our boys in green are using 5.56 for sniping at 500yd, much less an M4. If you're looking for reliable one shot performance at that range, there are lots of better options out there. Accurate M4's are applicable to certain kinds of close work where accuracy and one shot lethality are required - hostage rescue for instance.

Everyone I've talked to about my accurate AR project has spoken very highly of Baer.
Link Posted: 5/25/2002 2:31:16 PM EDT
For the record, I got my Wilson Combat Tactical Precision and DSA FAL this week from Cliff Brown. Finally! Wilson obviously can build demand faster than rifles.
I agree that Cliff is a "stand up" guy. Now I gotta figure out what kind of scope to put on the Wilson. Cliff had an NSX (?) for $1k that looked mighty good!
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