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Posted: 1/17/2002 12:00:27 PM EDT
I'm new to firearms and trying to decide what to go with as a general purpose, home/self protection, and SHTF pistol. Comparing all the options out there is a little overwhelming as I'm sure you all know. H&K, Sig, Glock, Colt... etc.

Some things that I like about the 1911 include the SA trigger and overall simple/proven design.

At the same time it seems that the 9mm round is a great general purpose round. Many military use them so excellent availability, cheap to shoot, etc.

So why don't more people combine the two?

I know there are some 1911 9mm's out there. Are there reliability issues? Cycling issues? Capacity? Or is there just a better option (Sig, Baretta, etc) that makes this combination pointless.

Thanks for your thoughts!
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 1:14:36 PM EDT
i think its pretty much pointless. as far as im concerned, one of the main benifits of a 9 is hi cap, but i dont belive 9mm 1911s have this. i think a beretta is better than a 9mm 1911 anyday, and about the same price.
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 1:50:40 PM EDT
A 9mm 1911 is very sensible, and you'll probably shoot it better than most other 9's out there, Beretta included. Still, if I were getting a 9mm it would be a SIG or Glock, but that's only because I already have a Colt in .45 ACP. You don't need a big capacity with a .45!

So if you're set on 9mm, don't discount the 1911, but also look at a few others in the same size range. If you want a 1911 more than you want a 9mm, then get a .45 - it just makes more sense in the long run.
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 1:59:12 PM EDT
If you are a 1911 fan........it makes all the sense in the world......for the obvious reasons......but you might want to eventually have a 45 also.......if you are not a 1911 fan.......forget it....personally....it would be great to have....just get a good one if you do it...
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 4:08:40 PM EDT
A 9MM 1911 is something of a contradiction. By going with a 9MM, you’re giving up the far better .45ACP round that the 1911 was designed for. By going with the 1911, you’re giving up the high magazine capacity of similarly sized 9MM semi’s such as Sigs, Glocks, etc.

Keep in mind that with rare exception, soldiers really don’t go into battle with 9MM’s as their primary weapon. They use 5.56’s, 7.62X51’s, daisy cutter bombs, etc.

If this is going to be your primary self-defense firearm, you’d be way ahead with a .45.

That being said, a 9MM 1911 is a fine weapon and is fun to shoot.
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 4:27:49 PM EDT
The words "Browning High Power" keep ringing in my ears. Get one of those and don't look back, it is a great pistol and combines the essential features of the 1911 with the 9mm. No grip safety and a pivoting trigger are the main differences, also the BHP has no barrel bushing. You could just get a 9mm 1911, but you might as well have hicaps, so get the BHP.
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 5:41:09 PM EDT
what chairborn said.
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 6:07:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Chairborne_Ranger:
The words "Browning High Power" keep ringing in my ears. Get one of those and don't look back, it is a great pistol and combines the essential features of the 1911 with the 9mm. No grip safety and a pivoting trigger are the main differences, also the BHP has no barrel bushing. You could just get a 9mm 1911, but you might as well have hicaps, so get the BHP.



ABSOLUTELY! Of all my handguns the HP is my favorite. Everytime I think I'll carry something different in the morning, as I go to put the HP in the safe it just feels so "right" in my hand, I change my mind and take the HP.
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 6:26:18 PM EDT
1911 9mm?

STI or Browning High Power.

The Browning has a 14lb trigger though.

The STI costs an arm & a leg...but you get what you pay for.

SIG & Glock make some excellent 9mm handguns. HK is another option but more expensive.



Link Posted: 1/17/2002 6:36:11 PM EDT
Oh god! I do get tired of the posts about 45 vs 9mm. They always drag out all the old farts who think 45 ACP is the hand of god. One hit from the thing will lift someone of their feet and tear them apart. In fact, a 7 shot 1911 can kill dozens of people because people EXPLODE when hit by 45 ACP and the shrapnel from them will kill other people. Please!!

45 ACP is my favorite caliber, but difference between pistol calibers in terms of "stopping power" are negligible. Truth be told, a high cap 9mm or 40 cal is probably a better weapon. I prefer the 45 (HK USP baby!) because I can shoot it best. One hit is better than 2 misses.
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 8:10:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2002 8:11:12 PM EDT by Chairborne_Ranger]

The Browning has a 14lb trigger though.
Say what?
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 8:56:05 PM EDT
Thats what I was told...14# trigger pull out of the box.

No?
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 9:16:02 PM EDT
If you want a single action pull with a 9mm, I don't agree with the Hi-power. Sorry Hi-power fans. Although it is an excellent gun, it has a mag disconnect safety that significantly affects trigger pull and the pull is quite rough on them usually. You can get rid of the mag safety, but you said you wanted it for carry and this would create a HUGE (as in the size that your orifice at the end of your gatrointestinal tract would be after a few days in the "pen") LEGAL LIABILITY in the event you actually shot someone with it- even if they desperately needed to be shot!

FYI, a 1911 in 9mm will actually hold TEN rounds if you get the 38 super mags with the 9mm insert. Not technically "hi-cap" but "more-cap" than a .45. I see a lot of these shooting IDPA and they work well. I prefer my Glock, though.

Now, the gun you really sound like you want does exist...it's called a CZ-75. You get 9mm in a single action pull carried cocked and locked. Or, you can lower the hammer and fire it double action first shot with a round safely in the chamber due to it's firing pin block safety (series 80 Colt's and all Kimbers have the firing pin block safety). Also, it is VERY acccurate and puts the bore axis VERY low in the hand (much lower than 1911) to control recoil better.

CZ-75 clones that you shuld also look at would include the EAA Witness, Jericho, and IMI Baby Eagle- I have two of those! The Baby Eagle is imported by Magnum Research, although a couple generations of this gun exist that cannot be cocked and locked. Also, the Baby Eagle was imported by UZI Industries for a couple of years and was known as the UZI Eagle. This gun is still nice, but I never liked the HUGE UZI Eagle logo in GIANT letters on the slide and it cannot be cocked and locked.

Hope that helps...
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 9:18:00 PM EDT
That would be a pretty hefty DA pull. I have a HP and a HP clone and both of them have single action pulls (seeing as they are single action only) that I never have measured but I suspect are each 4-5 pounds. About on par for an average 1911. Now if you get one of those DA HPs it might be different, but that kinda defeats the whole purpose of this thread.
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 9:31:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sk8brdnick:
Oh god! I do get tired of the posts about 45 vs 9mm. They always drag out all the old farts who think 45 ACP is the hand of god. One hit from the thing will lift someone of their feet and tear them apart. In fact, a 7 shot 1911 can kill dozens of people because people EXPLODE when hit by 45 ACP and the shrapnel from them will kill other people. Please!!

45 ACP is my favorite caliber, but difference between pistol calibers in terms of "stopping power" are negligible. Truth be told, a high cap 9mm or 40 cal is probably a better weapon. I prefer the 45 (HK USP baby!) because I can shoot it best. One hit is better than 2 misses.



Oh no,

Not another one of these the NINE IS THE SHIZNITZ! young punks. The hand of God will strike down upon thee with great anger and furious vengeance!
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 10:47:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Matrix:
Thats what I was told...14# trigger pull out of the box.

No?



No, you were told wrong. The Hi Power has a great trigger... even the new ones if you remove the mag disconnect. But you didn't hear that from me
Link Posted: 1/17/2002 10:55:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By stockton:
...You can get rid of the mag safety, but you said you wanted it for carry and this would create a HUGE (as in the size that your orifice at the end of your gatrointestinal tract would be after a few days in the "pen") LEGAL LIABILITY in the event you actually shot someone with it- even if they desperately needed to be shot!
...



That is just so much horse shit. The mag disconnect is an alleged safety device to prevent people from accidently shooting themselves. Some of our legal eagles in the Legal Forum who are much involved in firearms cases have said that they have never heard of someone being held liable because they modified their gun. If you shoot someone in a justifiable case of self defense that's the end of it. Otherwise shooting someone with anything more than a .22 would be considered overkill. Why the heck do you think we all keep an AR around? Because we'll be attacked by a angry herd of killer ground chucks?
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 6:17:45 AM EDT
The local constabulary around here, having dealt with them from an adversarial position, don't know enough about guns to know that a BHP ordinarily *has* a mag safety. This is from the detectives who test them, post-shooting, for function and trigger pull (looking for that "hair trigger" that "accidentally" went off). And even if they did know they wouldn't care. Maybe that's just because I live in a small town.

Removal of the BHP mag safety does clean up the trigger some, but it's not a bad trigger for an auto pistol even with the mag safety still operative.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 8:33:04 AM EDT
Pthfndr,
Then I gues we could also pin the grip safety on a 1911. Hell, we could even remove the firing block safety on a Colt series 80 or Kimber since tey don't really need them because the grip safety is redundant and the firing pin one is supposed to keep the gun from accidentally going off before the trigger is pulled!

Not trying to flame or anything, I jus TOTALLY disagree with advice to rpomote someone to modify a carry gun by removing a safety device- ANY safety device. Don't count on "they have never heard of someone being held liable because they modified their gun." There is always some poor schmuck who is a first. Furthermore, don't count on DAs and lawyers and a jury of twelve "rational" gun loving people!

The FINAL word I would put forth is DON'T modify the gun. If there is something you don't like significantly, its not the gun for you. Why even take the slightest chance of ruining you life if you have to legally defend yourself and then are found negligent. Hell, even if you don't go to prison, it still creates a bigger potential CIVIL liability.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 8:45:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2002 8:46:22 AM EDT by Bearlaker]

Originally Posted By Pthfndr:

Originally Posted By Chairborne_Ranger:
The words "Browning High Power" keep ringing in my ears. Get one of those and don't look back, it is a great pistol and combines the essential features of the 1911 with the 9mm. No grip safety and a pivoting trigger are the main differences, also the BHP has no barrel bushing. You could just get a 9mm 1911, but you might as well have hicaps, so get the BHP.





ABSOLUTELY! Of all my handguns the HP is my favorite. Everytime I think I'll carry something different in the morning, as I go to put the HP in the safe it just feels so "right" in my hand, I change my mind and take the HP.



What these guys said.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 9:00:45 AM EDT
You can't beat an HP as a 9mm, but I read an articleyears ago that the 1911 could be adapted to shoot 30 some calibers. 9mm is a universally available round. I can see having the parts to convert my 1911 to 9mm, incase that is all the ammo that is available. I have a colt compact that says in the manual it is available in 9mm, the grip area looks like it will take a 9mm double column magazine.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 10:05:31 AM EDT
If I were you: I would do this:
Get a Springfield Armory 1911 and have it converted to fire 45 Super (really just replacing the recoil spring) it will still also fire 45 ACP as well.
Why 45 Super ? Because it pushes a 230 grain 45 cal bullet to 9mm velocities. Making it an ideal man stopper.

By replacing the recoil spring with a standard 1911 spring the gun will still fire 45 ACP (this takes 1 minute with no tools) unless you have a very tight bushing and you require a bushing wrench.

Then for practice: you can get a 22 LR kit.
This will allow you to shoot 22 Long Rifle ($14 for a box of 500 rounds). So you can shoot literally all day and it will NOT break you financially.

Since the controls and ergonomics are the same, your muscle memory and reflexes and shooting skills will be the same.

So this way you can have it all: for Defensive Purposes you can put in your 32 lb recoil spring and load it with 45 Super.

OR...if you anticipate on shooting a LOT of 45 ACP you can put in a 18 lb recoil spring and shoot 45 ACP.

When you are at the range: you can put on your 22 LR kit and shoot 22 LR for HOURS. and get a lot of practice in costing you very little money.

The kits more than pay for themselves in what you would pay in Ammo costs (including ammo for 9mm guns) when you are at the range. In fact in less than 1 year, they will pay for themselves in the amount of money that you would save.

The 45 Super Conversion is Worth every penny since it allows you greater flexibility (can still shoot 45 ACP) and allows for better penetration and kinetic energy than you'd get out of 45 ACP. Not that there is anything wrong with 45 ACP, its just that 45 Super does a better job.
It will push a 230 grain 45 cal bullet at 1200 fps muzzle velocity. (185 grain bullets get pushed to 1400 fps).
As opposed to the 850 fps muzzle velocity for a 230 grain 45 ACP bullet.
It should be noted that the 45 Super will give you almost Magnum performance. A 44 Magnum will push a 185 grain bullet to about 1500 fps.

Ace Custom 45s, Inc offers 45 Super kits that you can install on your 1911.


Link Posted: 1/18/2002 10:41:10 AM EDT
If a 1911 style auto in 9mm is called for wouldn't it be cheaper to just get a Star Super/B? Some are 9x23 Largo but others are 9x19. Lots cheaper than shelling out $$$$ for a non standard "real" 1911. Personally, I want a 1911a1 in 7.62x25 just for the heck of it. The hard part would be the barrel, 7.62Tokarev has the same rim size as 9x19 but overall length is close to .45 or .38Super.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 12:54:04 PM EDT
I own a BHP and love it, but I have shot a 1911 in 9mm, and it is a treat. The guy who owned it had had a local hack machinist mill some lightening slots in the slide for faster recovery. It was a smoooooth shooting pistol (built on a crappy Safari Arms frame of all things!) Sure, you won't get much in the way of capacity, but if you like the 1911, and you like shooting 9mm, then for heaven's sake, BUY one!

I suspect that the 1911 in 9mm would be the fastest shooting of all pistols. Now I have really walked into a fire ant hill. :)
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 8:31:40 PM EDT
I have a Browning Hi-Power in 9mm and a Kimber .45 ACP. Both are fine pistols, but I must admit that I have completely become a 1911 convert since the purchase of my Kimber several years ago. Moses Browning was a genius! You can't go wrong with either the Browning or the 1911, but I think that the Browning Hi-Power is probably the best pistol ergonomically, while the 1911 to me is best for hard hitting, combat shooting. I've never tried the 1911 in 9mm, but am fairly certain that it probably wouldn't feel or point as nicely as a Browning Hi-Power, if you're set on a single action pistol in 9mm.
Link Posted: 1/18/2002 8:42:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By longshot_va:
Some things that I like about the 1911 include the SA trigger and overall simple/proven design.

At the same time it seems that the 9mm round is a great general purpose round. Many military use them so excellent availability, cheap to shoot, etc.

So why don't more people combine the two?


One Great man did. John Browning. The Browning Hi-Power is or has been used in more than 68 countries as an official military of police sidearm. It has a well-earned reputation for great reliability and general excellence. It is compact, handles very well and is sufficiently accurate. More than that, it's a no-nonsense pistol w/o useless gimmicks. It is a classic in it's field that will be produced for years to come.

Some years ago, the NRA published an article in the “American Rifleman” about the use of +P+ ammo in 9mm pistols. This was something of a hot potato a far as the firearms manufacturers were concerned, and most were cautious or didn’t reply at all. Hmmm . . .

>Smith & Wesson indicated that they were not in favor of using the +P+ ammo in their pistols.
>Beretta replied that they could not advise on the use of high-pressure rounds at that time.
>The importer of TZ-75 and related pistols said that though they were proofed by the Italian Proof Bank at Gardone, they did not condone a steady diet of performance 9mm Luger ammo.
>Browning, on the other hand forwarded a copy of an internal test report in which it fired 5,000 rounds of Remington +P+ ammo in a Browning Hi Power pistol. “Inspection of the Hi Power system revealed no unnatural wear of the locking surfaces or any other area. the conclusion; “. . . the 9mm Hi Power system appears to be durable enough to withstand long range [term] shooting of the +P+ ammunition.”

Do you see what this means? The 65 year old Browning design is so reliable and sturdy that it handles the highest performance ammo of today with aplomb.

The Browning Hi Power is a classic design that responds well to custom pistol smithing. Anyone in the market for an auto pistol should tryout the Browning Hi Power. Checkout what Jim Garthwaite can do for your Browning Hi-Power pistol! I have benefitted from his work. www.garthwaite.com/index.html

Link Posted: 1/19/2002 6:57:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RiffRandall:
If a 1911 style auto in 9mm is called for wouldn't it be cheaper to just get a Star Super/B? Some are 9x23 Largo but others are 9x19. Lots cheaper than shelling out $$$$ for a non standard "real" 1911.



Just want to second your recommendation. My understanding is that the Stars are 1911 clones and they are pretty high-quality, and inexpensive.

GunLvr
Link Posted: 1/20/2002 5:54:52 PM EDT

Originally from GunLvrPHD

Just want to second your recommendation. My understanding is that the Stars are 1911 clones and they are pretty high-quality, and inexpensive.

The Star autos aren't quite a 1911 clone: no grip safety, the trigger pivots rather than slides, & they use an external extractor (better Idea IMNSHO). The Argentine Ballestar Molina is more or less a .45acp sized Star. I'm seriously considering buying a Star SuperB that the local shop has, it's in 9x23 Largo but since I have a 9x23 barrel for my Cz52 ammo isn't a problem & 9x19 barrels are available.
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