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Posted: 1/12/2002 8:59:04 AM EDT
Well now that you guys talked me out of using .223 as a home defense weapon and reccommended a shotgun what kind of ammo should I use for my 12 gauge mossberg 500? This gun will also spend some time in my truck if that makes a difference? I was thinking federal tactical OOO buckshot found at ammoman.com it says NRA's number 1 manstopper.
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 9:33:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
Well now that you guys talked me out of using .223 as a home defense weapon and reccommended a shotgun what kind of ammo should I use for my 12 gauge mossberg 500? This gun will also spend some time in my truck if that makes a difference? I was thinking federal tactical OOO buckshot found at ammoman.com it says NRA's number 1 manstopper.



Stay away from 000 buckshot & slugs...they have too much penetration. Bird-shot...somthing like #6 is a better choice. It is very effective at the closes ranges that you will be working with in a home defense situation (just go shoot a pumkin from 10 yards if you have any doubts). With bird shot 100% of the kinetic energy of shot can be transferred to a bad guy if you hit him center of mass at close range. With buckshot or a slug much of the energy won't be transferred because of the over penatration - not to mention the fact that the shot may go on to put holes in your wall and kill your neighbor's beagle.
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 9:37:25 AM EDT
Out of a 18" barrel gun I got too much spread out of the birdshot although I don't know who it wouldn't stop I would feel better with something a little bigger than birdshot for longer distances. Trust me on this one though energy tranfer or not a slug will definately get the job done.
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 9:40:50 AM EDT
Birdshot has the added advantage that when the local DA tries to get you for murder, you can claim that you were a hapless sportsman, forced to defend yourself with your sporting gun. After all, "who would deliberately use birdshot if they had a choice?"
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 10:30:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By shelbydogsdad:

Stay away from 000 buckshot & slugs...they have too much penetration. Bird-shot...somthing like #6 is a better choice. It is very effective at the closes ranges that you will be working with in a home defense situation (just go shoot a pumkin from 10 yards if you have any doubts). With bird shot 100% of the kinetic energy of shot can be transferred to a bad guy if you hit him center of mass at close range. With buckshot or a slug much of the energy won't be transferred because of the over penatration - not to mention the fact that the shot may go on to put holes in your wall and kill your neighbor's beagle.



Birdshot is a horrible choice. I don't know why people still recommend it. Even at hallway distances birdshot doesn't have enough energy to penetrate medium to heavy clothing. Buckshot has the energy to penetrate relaibly out to respectable combat distances. If you are truly worried about overpenetration use lighter buckshot like #4. I personally prefer Remington Express OO in 2 3/4" shells. Recoil is a bitch in my 590, but it patterns well and has decent penetration.
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 10:45:39 AM EDT
I am not worried about over penetration, How do they make the round low recoil?
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 11:06:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
I am not worried about over penetration, How do they make the round low recoil?



Less powder. Lower velocity is the result (obviously), but all of the low-recoil stuff I've seen is still pretty effective.
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 11:30:10 AM EDT
Well as long as the low recoil stuff works why not use it. How low is the recoil would it be comparable to birdshot? I was shooting S&B slugs I think 4 shot and that felt like low recoil?
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 11:48:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
Well as long as the low recoil stuff works why not use it. How low is the recoil would it be comparable to birdshot? I was shooting S&B slugs I think 4 shot and that felt like low recoil?



I tried some Winchester Low recoil 00 in my Ithaca, and only noticed a slight change in the recoil OR it could have been the 30 other shells of Federal rifled slugs I fired before I switched over to the low recoil stuff. I doubt you'll need more than 5 shells to take care of business, so unless you are using a pistol grip shooting from the hip, the regular loads should do just fine.
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 4:23:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2002 4:25:57 PM EDT by ah1z]
I think I will stick with my evil non pc rifle for home protection.
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 4:28:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 5:13:55 PM EDT
I like 1 buck from Federal. Twenty .30 pellets in a 2 3/4 inch shell is a nice payload.
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 5:24:37 PM EDT
I've done some experimenting and found that I agree with the #4 suggestion...seems to be a very good all around use round to keep in a shotgun.

Just remember with 00 buck you have from 9 to 12 .32 caliber pellets let loose when you fire...
think long and hard about that in a congested area.
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 8:20:51 PM EDT
use a 5.56 HP.
Link Posted: 1/12/2002 9:32:51 PM EDT
if its a mossenburg 500 its probably up to 3 inch shells right. get you a shoulder bandaleer start with tac buck from a gun show, then oo buck, o1 buck, then 3 inch mag #2 steel shot for ducks and wolfs, and leave your self about 4 slots for saboted rifled slugs (about 70 cal) these are the big bear,tiger,buf,dino,engine block killers. it ain't all about cal. remmember all the posts about how the 7.62 was so great over the 5.56 , well custer's men had 50 cal. springfields could knock the shit out of shit at any range. the poor old (bless there hearts indians) had only 45/40 44/50 30/30 repeating rifles... any way you use bird shot to shoot birds. buck shot to shoot bucks.... and yes bird shot was designed to wound so we would have to use the bird paramedics to ...
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 5:07:36 AM EDT
I have Federal 00 9 pellet Tactical low recoil buckshot. The low recoil does make a slight differance which helps being that I keep my shotgun pistol grip. My apartment layout places all the other tenants above me or on the basement level. The basement level storage area is the only thing below all my rooms. I have only one way out and that is the front door. I would not retreat jumping through a window. Once I exit my apartment self-defense laws become harder to prove. So I opted for a strong shot with penetration capability if my front door was blocked by a second intruder. The property is also isolated from other homes by at least 300 yards or so. I keep FMJ in my mags too in case I cannot get to the shotgun. I would prefer arguing in court about overpenetration then being dead and not being able to go to court. I have read though that Federal 000 buckshot tactical load is very good for most home defense where penetration is an issue.
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 5:51:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By libertyof76:
use a 5.56 HP.



In my AR I use Glasser Safety Slugs,
in my 870 I've got Federal OO, the same stuff Taelil mentions in his post above mine.
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 5:54:27 AM EDT
there is a texas company, Escort, I think, who makes some very cheap "tactical" #4 buckshot. bought some from sportsmansguide once
Link Posted: 1/13/2002 6:02:19 AM EDT
The virtue of using #4 birdshot, I believe, comes from a number of studies which indicated that #4 birdshot would not penetrate two layers of 1/2" sheetrock----one would certainly hate to be shooting at an intruder and go through the wall and take out one of your family members.
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 9:56:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
I am not worried about over penetration, How do they make the round low recoil?



Then I would use either 00 or 000 buck, or a reduced velocity 1 oz slug. At close range, say a few feet, there isn't going to be much spread with any sized pellets.
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 10:03:59 AM EDT
I prefer #4s and 00 buck, loaded alternately, both in 3" magnums.

Kicks like a Missouri mule though...ya gotta hang on tight! On the plus side...one good hit from either would put Godzilla down.

Link Posted: 1/14/2002 10:48:03 PM EDT
My choice would be a "low recoil" or "tactical" load of 00 or 000 buck. Federal is typically a good, but expensive, choice. The best bet is to try each maker's "tactical" load and choose the one that patterns best in your shotgun.

00 and 000 pattern better at distance than does #4 buck. Also, the "tactical" loads tend to pattern better than the hot magnum loads. The lower velocity seems to deform the shot less, and the "tactical" loads are usually buffered and have harder shot, etc.

Also, ignore the enegry transfer theories. Not all energy transfer does damage, and not all damage done by energy transfer is equal. In order to take someone out, you need to destroy internal organs. To that end, you need sufficient penetration to reach those organs. Assuming you have sufficient penetration, you want to do as much damage possible to those organs. So you want penetration and a large wound channel.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 6:35:08 AM EDT
My house gun is a Mossy 500. I mounted a rear peep sight and post front sight, and had the barrel tapped for choke tubes--with a rifled tube and an extra full tube it does duty as a deer/turkey gun. The mag has one #6 shell with the rest Estate Cartridge Company tactical 00. This is great ammo, and is available from Cheaper Than Dirt.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 6:45:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By libertyof76:
use a 5.56 HP.



Yup, and this is my favorite, Cor-Bon's 40 grain BlitzKing load:

www.corbon.com/tacticalrifle.html

I shudder everytime I think about someone using 12 ga. slugs in the city.

Remember, YOU are responsible for each and every projectile. Big pieces of lead go a long way, and some bottom feeder will ask you about every slug, pellet or bullet you fire.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 6:46:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/15/2002 6:47:12 AM EDT by Spearweasel]

Originally Posted By PaulLaVanway:
The virtue of using #4 birdshot, I believe, comes from a number of studies which indicated that #4 birdshot would not penetrate two layers of 1/2" sheetrock----one would certainly hate to be shooting at an intruder and go through the wall and take out one of your family members.



#4 is actually not birdshot... it'll go through two layers with little problem at normal apartment fighting ranges. At normal apartment ranges (out to about 10yds), I find that #7 and #8 birdshot both shred the hell out of the plywood target backstops at the plinker range. They only spread out to a wad about an inch across, plus scattered pellets, out of my 870P. I keep a few #4 in the stock sleeve for heavier targets, but birdshot is fine for Austin apartments. Esp. during the summer, where few intruders wear parkas or cuirboilli leather armor.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 7:27:27 AM EDT
There is #4 birdshot, and there is #4 buck. The 2 are not the same. #4 bird is about the size of this period. #4 buck is about the diameter of a .22 lr bullet. The buck load has 28 pellets, the #4 birdshot, something like 150 pellets. #2 birdshot is a bit smaller than air Rifle BB pellets. NO longarm makes much of a home defense gun, because you are unlikely to get to it in time, You have to WEAR your pistol, or you won't get to it, either, most likely. I would rather go get my body armor, and be without a longarm, than have a longarm and no armor. All you have elsewhere is the pistol. If the pistol ammo and your ability with it isn't sufficient in your home, why are you relying upon it when you are away from home? You are 4x as likely to be attacked when not at your home as when you are esconsed within your castle.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 7:30:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jett3:
There is #4 birdshot, and there is #4 buck. The 2 are not the same. #4 bird is about the size of this period. #4 buck is about the diameter of a .22 lr bullet. The buck load has 28 pellets, the #4 birdshot, something like 150 pellets. #2 birdshot is a bit smaller than air Rifle BB pellets.



Ouch. I learned something new today.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 9:53:12 AM EDT
I agree with DonS. Estate Tactical 00 buck patterns tight out of my shotguns. Federal Tactical 00 buck is a good choice too, but it costs a little more.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 10:15:44 AM EDT
Clint Smith reccomends an ar15, and according to tests conducted by Massad Ayoob for guns and ammo the 223 has less penetration through sheetrock than .40 or 00 buck. Use 40 gr, but not hollowpoints. The hollow plugs and turns it into and fmj.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 11:12:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Spearweasel:

Originally Posted By jett3:
There is #4 birdshot, and there is #4 buck. The 2 are not the same. #4 bird is about the size of this period. #4 buck is about the diameter of a .22 lr bullet. The buck load has 28 pellets, the #4 birdshot, something like 150 pellets. #2 birdshot is a bit smaller than air Rifle BB pellets.



Ouch. I learned something new today.



#4 bird is big a birdshot goes, and it is definitly bigger than any period on this page, unless you are using a very large font.

Still, I'd pass on any bird load for serious defense. Some people load one load of bird in the chamber (for bedroom distance engagements), followed by three or four loads of buck. More buck and slugs are mounted on the shotgun, in different locations so you can find them in the dark. Clever, but a little complicated.

KISS.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 11:24:23 AM EDT
That's what I do with the .45, load two Glazers for the first two shots, the Hydrashocks if they are still up/present.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 12:30:21 PM EDT
#4 is approaching BB size.

And to the guy who stated that birdshot will barely penetrate clothing, you must be thinking of 22LR birdshot. Shotgun birdshot is way more powerful.

I would use #2 Bird if I was using a shotgun for defense. Another alternative is to mix up the shells. Start with Bird shot, and progress to Buckshot if you need to.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 12:46:03 PM EDT
I don't understand the logic of alternating and/or mixing up your defense rounds. To me that's like slapping somebody backhanded first, and if that doesn't work, give him the old 1-2 punch, and if that doesn't work, kick him in the nuts. I'd rather drop somebody with the first punch (or shot), than just piss him off and make him come after me.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 1:39:56 PM EDT
I see what you mean, but I can't see anyone getting feisty with a load of #4 in their gut. I suppose a druggie would, but he would no matter what you used.

I guess the attraction is safety. Why use a overpowered round when a smaller one will suffice? Not that I agree with this, but there you go.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 1:48:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/15/2002 6:08:26 PM EDT by Big_Bear]
Yeah, but if safety (or overpenetration) is a concern before the first shot, is it logical to compromise safety on the third or fourth shot? Sounds like desperation to me, and a ramping up of the use of lethal force. Either you use lethal force or you don't, there is no middle ground. I can see switching to slugs if the need arises, like shooting through heavy cover, but that's not what I'm reading here.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 5:48:07 PM EDT
Fed Tactical 000 Buckshot.

Birdshot is not a reliable manstopper at any range. Stray pellets that miss the intended target are more of a liability risk than the potential risk of "overpenetration".
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 6:20:16 PM EDT
I agree with big_bear. If it has come to the point that you reach for a gun, you should be ready to finish things. No sense in pissing them off so they attack you (perhaps right away, perhaps after their wound heals or perhaps after they get out of jail). It sounds bad, but I believe it is best to shoot to kill.

On another board, someone had some good advice about home protection, put a powerful light on your gun. Flash it quickly at the intruder. If they are facing you and your light is bright enough, their reflex will be to cover their face. This allows you to identify them and see what they are carrying in their hand. After you have flicked the light, side step. I've read some books with good info about about using flashlights in conjunction with firearms. It seems like sound logic to me... Identify and blind target, engage if target is a threat (better look before you shoot, it could be your teenage kid sneaking out or their boyfriend of girlfriend sneaking in).

Regarding what type of gun is best. I'd think that a pistol makes the most sense indoors. Less power, but it is easiest to wield in a confined, one handed or in a physical struggle.
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