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Posted: 1/9/2002 6:58:27 PM EDT
I good friend of mine that was in the Marine Corps says that all Marines hit the 500 meter target with 8 out of 10 rounds. I don't know anything about the accuracy of the military guns and was wondering if anyone could show any PROOF that the standard military issue guns can shoot that good. Im not questioning any marines ablity to shoot here, but I find it hard to believe that a standard issue gun will shoot that well.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 7:05:51 PM EDT
it is a large target, fired slow fire, from the prone position, with a loop sling. My grandmother can get hits at 500 meters with those conditions.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 7:16:22 PM EDT
Thanks for your opinion, but I was hoping that someone might show some proof.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 7:27:21 PM EDT
AR15fan is correct. The official military targets for use at 500 m has a black circle that is something like 30" in diameter which I don't think a standard issue M16 should have any trouble hitting.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 7:45:48 PM EDT
What could really convince me would be a Marine Drill Instructor that has seen this in real life. Like I said I would need proof that all marines can hit that target 80% of the time.

Looking through a peep sight at 500 meters with wind conditions and the fact that the round drops about 80 inches and a 10 MPH crosswind will give another 30 inches of drift, I just find it VERY hard to believe that a military issue gun with military ammo will perform that well.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 7:52:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2002 7:58:19 PM EDT by rule303]

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
it is a large target, fired slow fire, from the prone position, with a loop sling. My grandmother can get hits at 500 meters with those conditions.



So, how well did you score? Iron sights @ 500 meters,,5.5 football fields not shabby. With issue ammo and well worn rifles far from match grade.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 8:00:07 PM EDT
The rounds fired at 500 meters are the EASIEST rounds on the qual course with the possible exception of the five rounds fired in the slow fire sitting position at 200 meters.

There are 10 rounds fired at that stage and if you don't hit all, or almost all you will go unqualified and will be basically ineligible for promotion for a year until you can qualify again. Not to mention you will shoulder the unbearable humiliation of being a friggin' UNK for twelve months. An unqualified Marine is a low form of life, worse than a sailor.

So in answer to your question, yes, most Marines hit most of the shots at 500 meters almost every time. THere are many, many members on this board who have seen it many times and you can accept it as fact.

P.S. 4moa x 500 yds would equal 20" group. If you figure that an issue M16A2 probably shoots around 1.5-3 moa, and the Marines are really focusing and making each shot count, and the target is larger than 20", you can see that it wouldn't be a super human feat. Just good, solid basic marksmanship.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 8:03:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2002 8:05:29 PM EDT by SGB]
Will this do..........(sorry for the size)
M16A1.....Semper Fi

Link Posted: 1/9/2002 8:34:21 PM EDT
Thanks for the pic. So I guess that you are basically saying that all marines are snipers. I still find it VERY hard to believe. Im afraid that I would need more proof than one target and a bunch of people who CLAIM that they can do it.

The deal is that I have no doubt that a marine can do this, what I have a problem with is the fact that I doubt that ALL marines can do it with general issue rifles and general issue ammo.

If this can be done by anyone, then why bother to accurize the ar 15 at all. Its already a sniper rifle right out of the box so to speak.

Answers????
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 8:35:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2002 8:41:19 PM EDT by Sukebe]
DOH_RALL1, it's true. I qualified in 82 in boot camp at Parris Island with an M-16A1. I was surprised at how loose the fit between the upper and the lower was but I hit 10 out of 10 at 500 yds. On the 500 yard/meter targets used by the USMC for qualification the black is shaped like a human silouette. The silouette is 4-5 feet high and 2-21/2 feet wide( It's been a long time, I don't remember the exact dimension but it's big) We were taught to aim at the top of the head so the rounds would impact in the chest. That being said it is all in the training. Marine recruits are taught to target shoot at known distances thus the name of the course of fire, the "KD" course. I don't know why but Marines trained at Parris Island fire at 200yds, 300yds and 500yds. Marines trained at San Diego fire at 200M, 300M and 500M. When I went through boot camp we received no real combat shooting training. I don't consider shooting at known distances with a sling combat shooting and I doubt anyone else will. It was however excellent fundamental marksmanship training, the best offered by the U.S. Armed Forces, I'll go out on a limb and say it's probably the best fundamental marksmanship training offered by any armed service in the world(again it's not combat shooting). The Marine Corps wants every Marine to be a trained marksman. Their standards are high but far from impossible. Yes we used standard issue FMJ ammo. It seems that you won't believe until you see it so get on down to your Marine recruiter and try it for yourself.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 8:51:27 PM EDT
Thanks Suke, however like I said before, I don't question your ablity, I question the fact that ALL marines do it everytime. That the real question we have here. I believe that my friend did it and that you did it, but I don't believe that all marines do it and the reason why I don't believe it is because I don't think a USGI weapon is that consistant on a regular basis. Good shooting BTW.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 9:06:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2002 9:07:12 PM EDT by Benjamin0001]
This guy is trolling. My father shot 400 meters with an M14 at Fort Polk Louisiana. And the accuracy of an M14 compared to an M16A2 is like the difference between a sling shot and a crossbow. You can shoot 1/2" groups at 100 yards with 1.25" or less which is normal for that range with any good quality AR style rifle with free floater handguards. My AR can shoot 1/2" groups easily. If you are getting 4MOA with an AR you can hit the target. I wouldn't even buy an AR that was getting anything less then 2 MOA which is pretty standard for an off the street AR. I can't imagine how an M14 shoots but it is probably 2MOA+ but probably not over 3.5 MOA.

Benjamin
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 9:09:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2002 9:09:33 PM EDT by Sukebe]
In all honesty I don't recall that the standard was 8 out of 10 at 500 yds/M's. I know that their was a minimum score to qualify and three levels of expertise, Marksman, Sharpshooter and Expert. I really don't recall what the other guys did. We had to qualify once a year except under certain circumstances you received a waiver(automatic expert for promotion points, they give you the benefit of a doubt)) if it wasn't economicly feasable to get you to a KD range. Due to my training and duty station circumstances I only qualified once in 4 years and that was boot camp I qualified sharpshooter with a score of 219 out of a possible 250(expert starts at 220) so I'm not that good a shot although the day before(pre qual) I shot a 229( it was late November and the weather turned on us) series high shooter score was 236. The 500 yard line is really the easiest part of the course. Most guys make up lost ground there. Taken into consideration that you practice the shooting positions and use of the sling for 10+ hours a day for a week ( called "snapping in") Then shoot for 10+ hours a day for a week before you qualify it's really not that hard to believe. By the time you get to the rifle range it's late in your training, the end of the second out of three phases. You are very disciplined, motivated and focused and that is the key to good marksmanship no matter who you are.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 9:11:32 PM EDT
Are you basically insinuating that all Marines eat peyote and hallucinate about their scores? had
Remember the rifles they are using have, for all intents and purposes, the same tolerances in the barrels and chambers as a basic Bushmaster, the same sights, the same trigger, the same materials. And issue M855 ammo is pretty decent quality, it's not like someone's reloads they did while drunk.

But then, 1.5-3 MOA, as Rabid_Coyote suggests, is not sniper-like accuracy. No one's head is 30" across. While it would be possible to get a reliable body shot at that distance (which is what military snipers go for), you would want the most accurate platform possible if you just had that one shot.

Still I agree with you to some extent. 500 yards is a little impractical for the M16, considering how impotent the 5.56 round is at that distance. Any issue M16 can hit a man in the chest easily at realistic combat ranges. Then why accurize an AR? So people can shoot varmints. Against a prairie dog the 5.56 is potent to very great distances, but that thing had better be accurate enough to hit a target a few inches across at 500 yards!

But back to your point, GI M16s have been consistent enough to do that kind of shooting, in my experience. I've never heard of anyone not qualifying because their rifle sucked. The rifles we use for qualification at USNA are destroyed after so many thousand rounds anyway, we don't let them deteriorate indefinitely. In fact, I'd take any one of the M16A3s in our armory into combat over a brand new commerical AR, because I know they work (with good mags) and are accurate enough to do the job.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 9:49:23 PM EDT
Okay, lets end this thing right now. Will the moderators please contact the Commandant of the Marine Corps and have him arrainge for all of his Marines to log in to this site with their scores / targets.

Sorry, couldn't resist it any longer


Saleen
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 10:52:30 PM EDT
in boot i went 9 for 10 in the black at 500m. i was company high shooter with 238. i had the most beat down POS rifle you can imagine. no finsish on the upper, handguards barely servicable, just beat to hell. it looked like one of those Tapco kits. i had a DI snatch it from me on the parade deck and whack it on the ground like an Axe. when he shoved it back at me he growled "good luck on the range shit-stick" yes it's possible i assure you. the course of fire is arranged such that even if you shoot perfect at every distance you still MUST hit 4 for 10 at 500 to qualify.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 11:04:36 PM EDT
Let me get this straight.

The poster asks for confirmation of the claim that most Marines can hit a 500 yard qualification target, then rebuffs every Marine who takes the time to respond.

He wants PROOF.

While he initially rebuffs anecdotal first hand evidence, he admits that if a "REAL" DI took the time to tell him it was so, that would be good enough for him.

Pepper this with the observation that a 5MOA rifle is "sniper grade."

DNFTFT.

Link Posted: 1/10/2002 1:34:10 AM EDT
The average is 7 hits at 500 meters.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 3:53:40 AM EDT
If your question is whether a rack weapon with rack ammo is capable of such accuracy the answer is yes.

If your question is whether every Marine is capable of such accuracy, STLRN just above me there would suggest the answer is no.

I cannot determine exactly what you want to know, as you keep asking different questions.

I have never fired the USMC qualification course. I have, however, fired many a rack-grade M16A2 at 500, even 600M target. While I could generally hit 7 or 8 of ten at the 600M silhouette (if the wind was good) this is still by no means a sniper weapon. A black target on a white background makes the need for a scope not quite so critical, for one. In addition, while I hope to hit the Silhouette PERIOD at 600M, Snipers aim for specific PARTS OF THE BODY. That is a night difference.

I have shot with many former Marines, esp. when I was in the National Guard. While the fact that it was people competing to join a rifle team probably weeded out the worst shooters, overall I would unhesitatingly say the Marines teach better precision marksmanshiop than the Army (does the Amry tech such at all?).

Still - on an Army qualification range - the former Marines who (claim they) were top shooters in their Jarhead days shoot no better then the top Army shooters. Army qualification courses have faster times, no loop slings, require you to wear all combat gear, and force drastic shifts in positions - left to right and up and down. The targets are also the same color as the background - the course is supposed to simulate a defensive sector of fire.

On KD ranges where I have shot with Marines - even ones who always shot expert - I have found them sometimes worse than, rarely better than me at long range stuff. My coaches have always been Army.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 2:57:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2002 3:00:54 PM EDT by Derek45]

Originally Posted By DOH_RALL1:
... and was wondering if anyone could show any PROOF that the standard military issue guns can shoot that good. Im not questioning any marines ablity to shoot here, but I find it hard to believe that a standard issue gun will shoot that well.



IT'S TRUE !
IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT, ...SEE YOUR LOCAL USMC RECUITER ! ! !


After you sign up, they will convince you !


PS It's a Rifle, not a "gun".

Link Posted: 1/10/2002 3:09:19 PM EDT
I'm a pretty bad shooter in high power circles. I've never really been able to break about 85% consistently. (What's the difference between a bad high power shooter and a really good hunter? The really bad high power shooter KNOWS his unsupported shots STINK.)

Having said that - I can hold 5 minutes. Yeesh. I know they're marines, but give them a break. It's not impossible, and if any of them can be trained to do it, then they all can.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 3:42:28 PM EDT
Obviously this guy isn't going to believe it unless every Marine that has ever served shows a video of himself shooting. I was a DI in the Army Reserve and I can tell you that the rifles are capable of it. And as much as it pains me to say it the Marines have a better marksmanship program than any other service. That is something the Army really needs to improve on. But I have shot on several qualification courses throughout the country with 300 meter pop up targets, and a couple with 500 meter targets and it is not as hard as it sounds if you do your part, the rifle is perfectly capable of it. And if you think this is sniper grade accuracy then you have a different definition of sniper grade than I do.
Rant off.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 4:03:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/10/2002 4:06:31 PM EDT by OMR_RDTandE]
I shot the USMC KD course 7 times and shot Expert every time. That was with a rack issue M16A1- skinny 1:12 twist barrel and 55gr M193 Ball ammo. Oh, and that was with NO prior markmanship experience. If you listened to the Marine instructors, and listened to the coaches, you shot well. 8 out of 10 in the black at 500 yards, not a problem.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 5:14:37 PM EDT
Ok, I did find out some answers to my questions and thanks to all who took the time to post here and help. My friend did say that the targets he shot at were 18 inches and not 30, several of you say they were 30, so he was wrong there. Also it seems that not all marines shoot that well as all you have to do to qual is 40%. I do think that its partly the rifles and partly the shooters that have made his claim untrue that all marines shoot 80% all the time. Again, thanks for the people who took the time to help us clear this up.

To those that flamed, don't take it personally.
To those that helped, thanks again.
Link Posted: 1/10/2002 8:30:21 PM EDT
I just pulled this out of one of my old data books. Target 10, Relay 2, Alpha Range, Stone Bay, Organization: MAG-26, M16A2 Rifle Serial No.: 6044320, no date recorded but I would estimate August,1993. Back when you could still get points for a near miss.

500 Slow Fire, 10 rounds prone in 10 min. Each round is worth a maximum of 5 points. The "Dog" target bullseye is a human silhouette, 20" wide x 40" tall, roughley representing a man standing in a hole up to his belt facing the shooter, he is about 28" from belt to shoulder and his head/neck is about 8" wide x 12" tall and is worth 5 points, the 4 point ring is a 40" circle, the 3 point ring is a 60" circle, the entire target frame is 72"x72" and hits on paper outside of the 3 ring are worth 2 points. So, shots that are a scant RCH high or low of the bull are 3's, while those up to 10" left or right are 4's. It is quite easy to have a 3 closer to the bull then a 4, as a matter of fact a lot of 3's would hit the man in the helmet if he was wearing one.

Mon - 3,3,4,3,5,5,5,5,5 - 38 points with 1 saved round, no alibi given for slow butt service. This was my first time at the range with this rifle, and the first time in over 4 years I had been to the range as well.(That's what getting stuck in 4th MAW will get you!)
Tues - 4,5,5,5,4,5,5,5,5,5 - 48 points.
Wed - 5,5,3,5,5,5,5,5,5,5 - 49 points.
Thur - 4,5,5,5,5,5,4,5,4,5 - 47 points.

So, once I determined the dope settings and re-aquainted myself with the fundamentals of marksmanship on Monday, I was able to hit the bullseye an average of 80% on the next 3 days.

Link Posted: 1/11/2002 2:26:23 AM EDT
The boot camp Qual is not 40 percent it is 190 points out of 250 for marksmen. That is eqauted to 76% to qual. Shooting all 4 out of 5 points possible to qualify means that you are 80 percent, not 40 percent.
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 3:14:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2002 3:17:59 AM EDT by redray]


An unqualified Marine is a low form of life, worse than a sailor.





i take offense to this statement, being a retired Sailor myself, the combatant kind. i hope this was in jest, Rabid Coyote.
Link Posted: 1/11/2002 4:32:29 AM EDT
Look it up bud, the M16A2 can hit a human target at 550 meters.
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