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Posted: 1/6/2002 5:30:23 PM EDT
What kind of stopping record does the .223 have and what would be the best round for home/personal defense ?
Link Posted: 1/6/2002 5:54:19 PM EDT
A twelve gauge shotgun is best for most situations in which not shooting innocent bystanders is a consideration.

Dennis Jenkins


quote]Originally Posted By 1911greg:
What kind of stopping record does the .223 have and what would be the best round for home/personal defense ?
Link Posted: 1/6/2002 6:05:25 PM EDT
gotta agree with the 12 gauge for home defense. I prefer it in a bullpup config for the house.

.223 indoors is lethal but not ideal for home defense.
Link Posted: 1/6/2002 6:25:20 PM EDT
For home defence Hornady's TAP Urban in .223/55 gr. from an AR15 16" is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
You can find some great info on the Bushmaster/LE or Olympic websites on the .223 stopping power and myths of over penetration.
Many LE agencies are switching to .223 for swat entry weapons instead of pistol calibers because its less likely to over penetrate and increased stopping power.
The shotgun is great weapon at close range but its just as likley to over penetrate as any thing else.
First thing I would reach for in home defence would be a pistol, more control in tight spaces. Second choice would be AR15 with 55 gr. TAP.
Link Posted: 1/6/2002 6:31:13 PM EDT
My choice for the shot gun has little to do with over penetration. It has everything to do with a much larger kill zone per round.

I use a High Standard Model 10 loaded with buck shot and slug combinations. For close quarters there is very little that can compare firepower wise. The only draw back is capacity. but that is where the handgun comes into play.
Link Posted: 1/6/2002 6:34:15 PM EDT
If I hear a "bump in the night", I grab the GLOCK20 w/ M3 Tactical Light.

BUT, next to the bed is my Winnie 1300 Defender with #4 BUCK Tactical Loads by Estate Cartridge.

AR would not be my first choice.

I also live in an apartment.
Link Posted: 1/6/2002 6:39:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mongo_Mad:
its less likely to over penetrate and increased stopping power.



What if you're shooting at Sammies?
Link Posted: 1/6/2002 8:39:46 PM EDT
well I guess the mossberg 500 and gov model are better for home defense but for any distance grab the mini.
Link Posted: 1/6/2002 8:56:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
well I guess the mossberg 500 and gov model are better for home defense but for any distance grab the mini.



Grab the AR instead.
Link Posted: 1/6/2002 9:17:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/7/2002 4:33:53 AM EDT
My main concern wouldn't be overpenetration but continued good hearing.

BANG!!! BANG!!!
--ring--ring--ring--ring--ring--ring--ring--ring--ring--ring--ring--ring--ring--ring....
Link Posted: 1/7/2002 4:56:22 AM EDT
Mossberg M590A1 with mix of #4s and 00 buckshot. Nothing in the world that deters a perp like the distinctive sound of that shotgun being charged...nothing.

To any who may still harbor doubts, take a 12ga to the range, place the target about 10-25 feet out and take a couple of shots. Now ask yourself, how many rounds of .223 or pistol is it going to take me to do that kind of damage?

Finally...(Liberals shut your eyes!), one well placed shot from a 12ga and the testimony at the inquest will be very one sided.

Link Posted: 1/7/2002 5:09:19 AM EDT
using a rifle in close quarters requires a little more training and getting used to but the advantages over a handgun are enormous. the average ( keep in mind this is the average) persons torso is about 9 inch in depth; I have personally seen a hornady tap stop well clear of that limit in ballistic gellatin. the unperportional wound created by a 5.56 and cqb ranges would cause aproximately a 3 inch wound channel.

as far as sound goes have you ever fired a 12 gauge shotgun indoors with out hearing protection before? some how I don't think that 1 or 2 shot from a 5.56 will leave you deaf. sf and rangers have been using m4 for d.a. raid for some time now and I don't know any that are deaf (some are rather hard of hearing granted).

personally the preban bushy that sleeps under my bed (in locked compartment to which only I have the key) is my choice. for the reasons of lack of over penentration and for sheer fire power. trust me any thing you hit at this range with a 5.56 round will die, no ifs ands or buts.
Link Posted: 1/7/2002 5:17:42 AM EDT
Try the Cor-Bon .223 with the 40 grain Blitz King bullet. Very effective anti-personnel round, less penetration through sheet rock and standard building material than most pistol ammo.
Link Posted: 1/7/2002 6:34:33 AM EDT
Practically speaking -- I don't care if you are shooting a .22 at someone in the night; the person on the other end is not going to like it and they will most likely run.

It all comes down to what is effective for you. What do you shoot best? Which of your weapons are most reliable? What are you most comfortable with?

Do you get the point? Just be happy and shoot whatever you want. Most likely, you will never be faced with the situation anyhow. Well, I hope not anyway. I, myself, have a G23 with M3 TI. I feel confident in that.
Link Posted: 1/7/2002 6:48:08 AM EDT
The man who practices a lot with his .22 lr "upper" will get the hits FASTER, even indoors, than the guy with the 12 ga pump who counts upon the pattern spread to make up for his lack of ability. The typical range will be 10 ft or less, so the pattern will be at most 3" wide, and only 1" wide in a lot of cases. So it won't make up for being slow to traverse, pivot, etc. Also, the 223 is JUST as bad on the ears, and so is any TRULY powerful handgun load. That's why a lot of "entry" guns have suppressors mounted on them, SWAT and military guys know when they are "going in", so why not wear a set of custom made ear plugs, with a valve that admits normal sounds,yet excludes the blasts? Or electronic muffs that ENHANCE normal sounds, yet block the blasts? The Lee-Norton "earvalves" are $20 and have been-around for decades. You can install them in 10 seconds, starting with them in the "coin purse" type pouch that should ALWAYS be on your belt. That's faster than virtually anyone is going to reload a revolver or tubular mag with loose rds, and is likely to not only double your accuracy, but let you hear the perp's movement, and save your hearing for later in life, too. A proper 223 sp has plenty of stopping power, and all this worry about it going thru walls is misplaced. I am protecting me and mine, and the neighbors will just have to do likewise. If you use a load that won't go thru MANY apartment walls, it can't be relied upon to stop a man, and I do not plan my gear or tactics around the idea of MISSING a lot.
Link Posted: 1/7/2002 6:48:45 AM EDT
The man who practices a lot with his .22 lr "upper" will get the hits FASTER, even indoors, than the guy with the 12 ga pump who counts upon the pattern spread to make up for his lack of ability. The typical range will be 10 ft or less, so the pattern will be at most 3" wide, and only 1" wide in a lot of cases. So it won't make up for being slow to traverse, pivot, etc. Also, the 223 is JUST as bad on the ears, and so is any TRULY powerful handgun load. That's why a lot of "entry" guns have suppressors mounted on them, SWAT and military guys know when they are "going in", so why not wear a set of custom made ear plugs, with a valve that admits normal sounds,yet excludes the blasts? Or electronic muffs that ENHANCE normal sounds, yet block the blasts? The Lee-Norton "earvalves" are $20 and have been-around for decades. You can install them in 10 seconds, starting with them in the "coin purse" type pouch that should ALWAYS be on your belt. That's faster than virtually anyone is going to reload a revolver or tubular mag with loose rds, and is likely to not only double your accuracy, but let you hear the perp's movement, and save your hearing for later in life, too. A proper 223 sp has plenty of stopping power, and all this worry about it going thru walls is misplaced. I am protecting me and mine, and the neighbors will just have to do likewise. If you use a load that won't go thru MANY apartment walls, it can't be relied upon to stop a man, and I am not going to plan my gear or tactics around the idea of MISSING a lot, or upon what MIGHT happen later in court.
Link Posted: 1/7/2002 7:46:55 AM EDT
For defending the homestead against bad guys, the "my trusty 12" will be my choice for the simple reason of its controllable close quarters firepower. My 12, is fitted with a Pachmayr decelerator pistol grip, Hogue overmoled forend, and 18.5" cylinder bore barrel with tritium ghost ring sights. For instance, my home defense loads consist of 3" magnum, #4 buckshot - translated that's a total of 42 - .22 caliber pellets per shot. However, as with any weapon, shot placement is key. Far too many people assume that the shotgun is just a point and shoot weapon - IT IS NOT! Even with a cylinder bore, a shot pattern is quite dense at close range (<40 feet). As with most home encounters, your target will likely be just on the other side of the room, at the other end of the hall, or even on the other side of the door, hence there's no reason to choose a long range weapon. Choose your home defense weapon carefully, become familiar with whatever you choose to the point that you can find it and operate it in total darkness, but most importantly practice with it.
Link Posted: 1/7/2002 9:22:19 AM EDT
Persionally, I use a HK USC .45 Carbine. It's as quite as a 10/22 when using 230 gr standard load, so It won't ruin my hearing. It's EXTRAMLY easy to use in close quarters, very accurate, good stopping power, has a ATN ultra sight on it so I can use it effectivly in the dark (will soon have the Tac light on it too). The .45 will drop about anybody, and isn't to prone to overpenetration.

My second choice, would be my HK Tac. .45, It will be my 1st choice afterI get the can for it.

After that, I'd grab an AR or my VEPR, before I'd go for my 12 ga, for the sole point that I don't trust my 12 ga Mossburg.

TTYL,
Justin
Link Posted: 1/7/2002 9:07:06 PM EDT
the SUBSONIC .45 is NOT going to "drop nearly anyone". In fact, it is likely to fail at least once in 4 SOLID chest hits. Look into RBCD's 90 gr, 2000 fps .45 load. Now THAT, or a good softpoint in the 223, is likely to suffice, with a chest hit, anyway. I have shot a lot of animals with 1000 fps and less .45's, and it rarely suffices to achieve more than to stagger them and that is true of relatively small critters (jacks, chucks, etc.) Try this for yourself. You will be UNDERWHELMED by the slow, heavy bullets, if you shoot enough animals for flukes to not be the factor. Like a minimum of 10.
Link Posted: 1/7/2002 9:10:13 PM EDT
What does subsonic mean when you are taking about .45's Doesn't .45 have a good one shot stop with the right ammo like hydroshok as I remember it was like %96??
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 9:22:07 AM EDT
1911 greg. Subsonic simply means the bullet travles slower than the speed of sound. That means there is no "crack" from it braking the sound barrier. While it can still be very load from a short barreled weapon, the "crack" usually is what does your hearing in.

I was always under the impression that a 230 gr .45 rnd or 5 would at least slow someone down. . . . I mean, if you compair Muzzle energy of it to say, a 9mm or .223. . . .

I have some SWEET 105 GR IMI/NEWGEN +p stuff, it's a U shaped bullet w/a pin in it. I Love that stuff, but it is supersonic (1500+ FPS, 1088 or ruffly 1050 is the barrier) so it's sorta loud. Still no-where as loud as a .223.

-Justin
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 11:09:13 AM EDT
Why does the .45 have alot of muzzel energy?
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 12:03:59 PM EDT
Stopping power with the 5.56 is tremendous, especially with M193 or Hornady TAP (Urban 60gr. is my personal choice for indoor CQB). The massive would channel created is incomparable to any handgun round, and just as good as a 12ga.slug. I personally use an M4 carbine for my bedside weapon of choice, and for several reasons: extremely wieldy and meneuverable in room clearing situations; low recoil...translating to faster and more accurate follow up shots (should they be necessary; very high ammo capacity should the engagement turn into an extended fire fight (me?? paranoid??...Naaaah); operating platform that allows very easy mounting/dismounting of accessories such as tac. lights, scopes/red dot sights, etc., etc. As far as the "loud noise" is concerned, the stress induced condition of Auditory Exclusion makes you practically forget what the report of the weapon sounded like when all is said and done. I have personal experience with this (firing in closed rooms), and can attest to the fact that in an SHTF situation, you may not even remember the weapon going off/how many rounds you've fired. My .02 cents.

Cloak-
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 12:46:21 PM EDT
Any of the TAP urban's from 55-75 gr. will be just what the doctor didn't order. I'd stay away from the smaller 40 gr. stuff, the spec's aren't very good.
Q3131A is also still a great performer at CQC ranges.
I don't think this was supposed to be a 12ga. vs. .223 debate. The question is what "is" the stopping power record of .223, which round is best?
.223 is excellent for home defence. Use TAP or Q3131A. The links above will give more detail.
As to what to grab first. I think a handgun and flashlight should be first. More manuvarable, not as weildy.
No one is gonna hear a shotgun slide racking in my house. If I feel the need to grab a gun I've already hit the panic button on my alarm, and all hell will be breaking loose. 2 130db sirens, and security lights inside and out blinking on relays.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 3:36:39 PM EDT
1911greg,

The .45 has a lot of muzzle energy simply because of the weight of the projectile. Muzzle energy comes from velocity and weight. a .45 may be about 1/3 the speed of a .223, but it may also weigh 5 times as much, often more than making up for the lower velocity in the amount of energy transfered to the target. It's like taking a little Ferrari and running it into a building at 200 MPH, or a fully loaded semi at 60 MPH.

I was unclear what you meant best round, wether you ment best .223 or best of any rounds.

The .223 has plenty of dropping power, and would be great for outdoors defense, but I would not choose it for home defense, INSIDE, because I don't want ot come away alive and crippled (deaf, hard of hearing).

I am well aware that you may not actively hear the shots, loudness, etc, but, that doesn't mean no damage is being done. Most sevear ear damage is done by loud, fast cracks (I.E. supersonic cracks, explosions) before your ear has fully adjusted. it's the 1st couple rounds that'll do the damage. . . after that, it will take a lot to slowly degrade your hearing.

Back to the muzzle energy, if you want more muzzle energy in a .223, get more weight, I.E. 75 and 80 GR. .45 has so much weight in 230 gr, that it does not need to be supersonic to have a good deal of energy. It isn't really aerodynamic, and is slow and heavy, so it sucks at med-long range, but THAT is what we have .223 for. med range.

They make diffrent calibers for diffrent reasons. Usually because some are better at certian things than others. If I am in a feild and need to drop the guys ont he other side, I'm gonna grab my .223 VEPR II before I'd grab my USC in .45, but If I'm in a building, where it's all up-close and persional, i'm going strait for one of my .45's.

-Justin
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 5:48:21 PM EDT
1911greg,

The .45 ACP actually doesn't have a lot of muzzle energy. The 5.56mm round has about 4-times the kinetic energy of a decent .45 (fired from a pistol length barrel). The venerable .45 is respectable in terms of handgun effectiveness, but it has nowhere near the destructive power of a good 5.56mm round.

In my opinion, any AR loaded with .223/5.56mm rounds of 55gr+ is going to be a highly effective home defense weapon. M193/M855 ball ammo is effective and cheap (relative to others) while Hornady TAP, Win 64gr PowerPoint, etc. will be equally effective but cost more. These rounds also strike at such a high velocity that should you miss your intended target, they will most likely break up shortly after hitting a wall. An errant 9mm round will actually penetrate more wall than most .223's.

As for your Mini-14, if that's all you've got that's fine. If you can get your hands on a decent AR-15 style weapon, that will be much better. AR's are much more trustworthy for protecting your loved ones.
Link Posted: 1/9/2002 6:14:54 PM EDT
I wish I could get a AR but I live in CA!!!
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 12:56:32 PM EDT
Yeah, .223 is a good choice for home defense, but only in a carbine format. .223 has a horrible wound profile when it fragments, and at CQB ranges, leaving the muzzle at 2,900-3,300 fps, the little .223 would fragment like you would not believe.

When .223 fragments, it leaves a permanent wound cavity in the victim. Larger rounds like 7.62 NATO and 7.62mmx39 go straight through the victim. The only larger-caliber rifle round that I know of that leaves a large permanent wound profile like .223's is 30-06.

However, shotguns are also a good choice. I own a Bushy M4, and I would personally go for my Saiga 12, as 12 gauge is more lethal shot-for-shot than .223, and 5 loads of buckshot into someone in less than 2 seconds has got to hurt, at least a little. :)
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 1:25:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Magnus_AK:
The only larger-caliber rifle round that I know of that leaves a large permanent wound profile like .223's is 30-06.


BZZZZ Wrong! Thanks for Playing!

Please go to the links Troy posted. The 30-06 leaves the same wound track as the 7.62 NATO (it should as the NATO round was developed to mimic the 30-06). Only round to equal or supass the 5.56 is the West German version of 7.62NATO (note that is NOT Hirtenberger)



...as 12 gauge is more lethal shot-for-shot than .223, and 5 loads of buckshot into someone in less than 2 seconds has got to hurt, at least a little. :)



It may hurt but when I see Buckshot produce 6" internal cavities then we'll see. BTW you are responsible for each and every one of those pellets hope they all keep in pattern.
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 1:36:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/14/2002 1:39:23 PM EDT by ECS]

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
I wish I could get a AR but I live in CA!!!



Then I think you are back to the 12 Guage shotgun option. For indoor use, say under 15 feet, your pattern will be very tight with any choke. Sometime I'll have to pattern this but I'm guessing its going to put all the pellets in a 2-3 inch circle. Most likely your distance will be even less.

I saw an AD at the skeet range once where the muzzle was about 3 feet from a piece of plywood protecting the low house window. It blew a hole about 1" across in the plywood. Thats at 3 feet with a skeet choke.
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 1:42:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Matrix:

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
well I guess the mossberg 500 and gov model are better for home defense but for any distance grab the mini.



Grab the AR instead.



Yea I heard the Mini is Dangerously accurate...
Link Posted: 1/14/2002 1:47:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/14/2002 1:48:04 PM EDT by Profet_Mohammed]
How about 50Bmg with hollowpoints never seen hollowpoints for a 50bmg but its an idea. yes it doubles has a flashbang too. just a thought?
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 8:09:05 AM EDT
you can believe Marshall's baloney if you want to. I prefer to go with what I observe MYSELF, on flesh and blood. 223 ball ammo often does not either fragment or tumble in animals. Go with one of the heavier sp's in 223, IF your rifling twist will stabilize it. If you have a 1 in 12 twist, better look into the Federal 55 gr Tactical, the lighter TAPs, the 55gr Reminton Bronze Pt, the "x" Barnes hp, the Trophy Bonded "Bear Claw", Hackathorn says that the HP's can become battered enough (shifing in the mag, under recoil) to cause feeding problems. If you have time enough to run and get ANY longarm, you also have time to put on a set of electronic earmuffs. I carry a little clamshell ear plug holder on my belt, and before you could get back with your longarm, I can have those Earvalves in my ears. I would rather have a handgun and body armor, than a longarm and no armor. If your handgun's load and your ability with it don't suffice, I suggest that you get better ammo and practice more. You are unlikely to get to a longarm in time, and the only way to have both speed and security over the handgun is to WEAR it. You are 4x as likely to be attacked elsewhere than while in your home. If your pistol is enough for the greater threat, why waste time on other stuff, just because you are home? The 10 seconds+ it will take you to run and get a longarm will seem to be much too long if a man is shooting or stabbing your loved one at the rate of 4x per second.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 8:36:04 AM EDT
As for me 12g. something about the sound of a pump shotgun,racking a shell in the chamber..I know yall are going to hee-haw me but it's loaded with bird shot..I have 3 kids and if I did have to shoot in the house I don't want to have 00 bulk though the walls in the kids bedrooms, at the range inside a house..let me tell you bird shot would make a mess out of someone



semper-fi
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 10:01:23 AM EDT
For home defense who cares? A well placed shot will stop anything that you need to stop. I have my AR loaded and by my bed all the time and there is nothing that I would have to shoot at in my house that the .223 will not stop. In fact I am two for two with my AR and the .223 55gr deer hunting and I did not have to track either.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 10:08:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jett3:
you can believe Marshall's baloney if you want to. I prefer to go with what I observe MYSELF, on flesh and blood. 223 ball ammo often does not either fragment or tumble in animals.



I don't know anybody who beleives Marshal.

Myself I read and listen to Dr Martin Fackler, LTC US Army (ret).

The guy was a surgeon in Vietnam and put togeter people who had been shot by these rounds. He then went on to run the US Army's Ballistics Laborator where he did a scientific study (i.e. reproducable experiments that are well documented and published for peer review) on the wounding patterns of military bullets. He then went on to write the Chapter on bullet wounds for the Nato Emergency Surgery manual. Then he rand the IWBA (International Wound Ballistics Assication).

So how does your resume compare with his?
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 10:24:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gijohnny223:
For home defense who cares? A well placed shot will stop anything that you need to stop. I have my AR loaded and by my bed all the time and there is nothing that I would have to shoot at in my house that the .223 will not stop. In fact I am two for two with my AR and the .223 55gr deer hunting and I did not have to track either.



So true ....as for a 223 for huntting,The best huntter I know of uses a 223 for deer he says the the samee thing.his's girls fist deer was killed this year with a 223 single shot rifle.

I'v killed deer with 308,270.270 wether.mag,...I'm going to give the AR a tri next time,and tri for head shots eather the deer walks or drops..I'l be hog huntting this weekend happy days


semper-fi
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 11:23:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
I wish I could get a AR but I live in CA!!!



The Mini will do fine unless you want to get into competative shooting. Don't feel bad about it.

I actually prefer the Mini (Garand, etc) layout for CQB. I like to have the sights close to the bore axis, and I prefer the conventional stock over the AR's pistol grip. IMO, the convential stock just seems quicker on target (given the success of the AR in IPSC, it might be me), and in terms of weapons retention, the convential stock is superior.

And besides, if you bash a Mini over someone's head, it isn't as bad as bashing an AR.
Link Posted: 1/15/2002 11:25:12 AM EDT
Good luck...... I would'nt hunt with anything else now.
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