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Posted: 12/21/2001 6:26:27 AM EDT
I think caseless ammo is a great idea. The HK G11-K2 (AKA ACR - Advanced Combat Rifle) intrigues me. It's supposed to be cheaper to produce than the G3. That being the case, how much does one cost? Can a civilian get one? Do they make semi-auto civilian versions or do they just make them in select-fire?

If I had a Class 2 license (which I don't, but I hope to get one some day), would I be able to get a G11 or would the caseless ammo issue cause the government to raise it's iron eyebrow at me? Would a G11 be considered a "suspicious" request or would I likely not be given any static about it?

The reason I like the G11 is NOT because I'm a sociopath who wants to unload 45 rounds per mag into a crowd of innocent bystanders. It's because I think caseless technology should be the wave of the future. The rotating cylinder bolt is a brilliant design. The German government was a bureaucratic fool to ditch the project. America could have had the G11 in her arsenal if not for their nit-picking ways. But since the G11 wasn't accepted by its nation of origin, no other nation will accept it either do to some kind of politics crap or whatnot.

Now, as for me, I don't give a biff about international politics crap regarding which guns get accepted by who and all that kind of stuff. If I had my druthers, every American - civilian or otherwise - would have their very own OICW and a Striker-12 to go with it. There's no viable reason I - or anyone - shouldn't be able to have a military-grade G11-K2.

Oh, and another thing - caseless ammo should be cheaper than standard ammo. That's part of the idea, aside from less fouling and no cases to cycle. If anybody here knows about caseless ammo and rifles that take it, please give me an idea about the cost.
Link Posted: 12/21/2001 8:03:11 AM EDT
The G11 was a prototype weapon used for testing only. To the best of my knowledge, all existing models were hand built and are still with H&K. There has been no sale or general production either, as far as I know. The weapon was ultimately judged to be lacking.

I think the problem they ran into was heat, or more specifically how to get rid of it. The weapons contantly and consistently overheated. The problem was that with conventional cased ammunition, the brass absorbs a large amount of the heat generated by the burning propellant. In the G11, there was no empty casing to carry the heat away from the chamber and receiver, so the heat built up much faster than in a conventional weapon. In the end, the simpler operation and lighter weight and cost of caseless ammunition could not overcome the disadvantages of being unable to shed the heat quickly enough. This is one that will probably be on the shelf, at least for rapid firing weapon, until metalurgy and chemical technology can become more advanced.

At least, that's my take on the situation.

Link Posted: 12/21/2001 8:07:45 AM EDT
Last information I had was the Germans had dropped this project. Primarily a budget issue but I think there were still some technical problems as well. Even if they had gone forward with it, the chances of seeing it on this side of the pond were less than zero.

Caseless ammunition is an idea that has been around since WW II. It seems every 20 years or so somebody takes another run at it. Daisy tried back in the 60's. As I recall ammo wasn't any cheaper. The idea always appeals to engineers and logistics people but so far nobody has made it a practical and workable solution.
Link Posted: 12/21/2001 8:38:44 AM EDT
The project was dropped after the wall fell. The rifles were gonna be very expensive, and it would cost far too much to equip the new army that they had.

There are absolutely no G11s outside of HK. Even if there was 1, goodluck getting any ammo for it. Especially at the rate it eats the stuff.
Link Posted: 12/21/2001 8:42:08 AM EDT
G11 went bye bye and today the G36 is the hot HK item for sale with regular 5.56mm rounds.......I think caseless ammunition is still a dream that may or may not come to pass......as far as reliability or practicality.
Link Posted: 12/21/2001 8:43:21 AM EDT
Anybody ever play "Delta Force 3: Land Warrior"? They had a really cool model of the G11 that really KICKED ASS! Great bursts and awsome firepower.
Link Posted: 12/21/2001 11:48:01 AM EDT
Oh well. *sigh* I guess I'll just have to keep dreaming.

Link Posted: 12/21/2001 1:07:15 PM EDT
There is a guy that used to post on HK91.com that has a G11.

If I recall correctly, he paid under $2000 for it including a couple cases of ammo. He lived in England, so he had to have the rifle delivered to him by helicopter directly from Oberndorf.

Oh and because of the gun laws in England, he had to keep it on his boat, and he could only shoot it from his boat in international waters.

I asked if I could fly over and shoot it, but he didn't want to trade for my M41A Pulse rifle.
Link Posted: 12/21/2001 4:41:54 PM EDT

How did you clear a dud round out of a G11? I thought it didn't have an ejection port since it was caseless, nothing to eject?

Just wondering out loud
Link Posted: 12/21/2001 5:08:11 PM EDT
The only G11's I ever saw were at Ft. Benning during Basic Training. There were some guys at the range with the G11's and several other "exotic" rifles that were being tested by the Army's ACR team. Eventually all of them were dropped, never heard about the overheating problem with the G11's. We got a little seminar on the rifles from one of the SGT's there, but be damned if I can remember what he had to say about them. What stands out most is that we got a break from the regular routine!
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 11:28:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Waldo:

How did you clear a dud round out of a G11? I thought it didn't have an ejection port since it was caseless, nothing to eject?

Just wondering out loud



Easy. There is an ejection port on the bottom. Since there is no pressure on the bottom, you just open the port and the next round knocks the dud out. If the magazine is empty, the follower will clear the chamber.

This rifle was a great idea that ran out of need. Its burst mechanism is much more effective than the M16A2, leading to a much better 1st shot probability at extended ranges.
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 2:25:57 PM EDT
Caseless ammo is one of those great ideas, that just won't fly. Besides the heat problem, the caseless idea has some other problems that just can't be worked around:

Ammo durability. The propellent charge has to be waterproof, and tough enough not to be broken up by rough handling, BUT has to be easy to ignite. There doesn't seem to be a happy medium between these.

Ability to be quickly extracted in case of a misfire. Caseless ammo has no method of incorporating an extractor groove, or other effective extraction method.

A really effective chamber seal is difficult to achieve, especialy with higher powdered ammo.

Unburned propellent remaining in the chamber and bore can cause stoppages, or even obstructed bores in some cases.

As the man said, about every 20 years somebody makes a run at this, but just can't come up with a system that can out perform standard ammo.
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 3:25:18 PM EDT
I think the failure of caseless ammo has more to do with the success of brass cased ammo. It's really a tribute to how effectively brass serves all its different roles (protecting the components, holding the components together, sealing the chamber, and conducting heat from the weapon).
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 6:50:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Keith_J:


This rifle was a great idea that ran out of need. Its burst mechanism is much more effective than the M16A2, leading to a much better 1st shot probability at extended ranges.



Heck, more marksmanship training will result in this, and it won't cost billions of dollars like a new rifle will.
Link Posted: 12/22/2001 6:56:07 PM EDT
Yeah, but the G11 recoil system was really unique. It held the recoil of each successive round by incrementally operating the recoil system in the stock. On the third round, the recoil system was full up and then the system released the energy. Three round bursts were characterized by one, and only one, recoil operation. You can't do that with an M16A2. You can get good, but you can't get that good. Oh, and the rate of fire on auto was UNREAL. Still, I'd rather RELY on my CAR.
Link Posted: 12/23/2001 2:39:06 AM EDT

Since it used caseless ammo, is it safe to assume it had some sort of electronic ignition system?
Link Posted: 12/23/2001 7:27:26 AM EDT
Here´s a thread with good, solid information on the G11 program

boards.hkpro.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=7&t=001799
Link Posted: 12/23/2001 2:27:40 PM EDT
I recently (about 6 months ago) heard that Congress was considering a bill to purchase a new rifle for some crazy amount of cash (something like $10,000 each). What was that weapon? Of course, the ignorant news media didn't have any details.
Link Posted: 12/23/2001 3:08:47 PM EDT
IIRC The german goverment purchased 1000 to be issued to special forces after the wall came down to at least get some operational hardware out of a 20 year project.

I too would LOVE to have a semi-auto caseless rifle, eventualy it will make a come back, the OCIW is never going to be feilded, so I am willing to bet that the next rifle feilded by the US will be caseless.

I havn't heard anything about the bloodshock thing, but I have a hard time beleving that any militray would abandon a rifle for being too effective.

Hey, and caseless ammo would might also be a way around magazine limits, you have a block of 50 rounds, you shoot it, and there's nothing left over!

I really, really wish that someone would come out with a 4.7mm caseless AR upper and ammo!
Link Posted: 12/23/2001 3:39:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By soylentgreen:
I recently (about 6 months ago) heard that Congress was considering a bill to purchase a new rifle for some crazy amount of cash (something like $10,000 each). What was that weapon? Of course, the ignorant news media didn't have any details.



That would be the OICW. A G36 lower, in 5.56, with a 20mm upper.
Link Posted: 12/23/2001 3:44:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/23/2001 3:38:40 PM EDT by Tuukka]

Originally Posted By Armed_Scientist:
IIRC The german goverment purchased 1000 to be issued to special forces after the wall came down to at least get some operational hardware out of a 20 year project.

I too would LOVE to have a semi-auto caseless rifle, eventualy it will make a come back, the OCIW is never going to be feilded, so I am willing to bet that the next rifle feilded by the US will be caseless.

I havn't heard anything about the bloodshock thing, but I have a hard time beleving that any militray would abandon a rifle for being too effective.

Hey, and caseless ammo would might also be a way around magazine limits, you have a block of 50 rounds, you shoot it, and there's nothing left over!

I really, really wish that someone would come out with a 4.7mm caseless AR upper and ammo!



Read the thread i posted, gives an insight what happened with the G11.

Link Posted: 12/23/2001 4:33:50 PM EDT
As a side note during the Canadian Forces SARP (Small Arms Replacement Program)- early 80's The G11 was trialed and found extremely wanting
- the G11K2 was apparently re-engineered and ready for production (which co-insides with what appears to be first hand knowledge from Tuukka's link.
During our SARP trials the G11 competed against the FNC, SA-80, AR-70, M16A1E1 (pre M16A2) Steyr AUG and two others I cannot recall.

and of course the M16 won.

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