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Posted: 11/15/2001 10:35:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/16/2001 5:43:00 AM EDT by Quarterbore]
Not allot of discussions going that had my interest so I was surfing and found this...

communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/gz-g2-kb.html




More images and information about...

Glock kB!s, 2001

Catastrophic Failures: guns that go Boom! instead of Bang!

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"The photos below illustrate a catastrophic failure of a Glock 21. Again, this incident did not happen at Front Sight Firearms Training Institute, but is one of many reasons why Front Sight has always required students to use factory, new ammunition. The shooter of this pistol was using reloaded, full metal jacket ammunition. To the best of our understanding of the incident, the cartridge case was not sized properly, preventing the action from locking up fully, but allowing the action to close enough to fire the weapon. The result was an open breach detonation of the cartridge. The photos speak for themselves. The shooter received severely bruised hands, with minor to moderate lacerations to his hands and face. We have received reports of similar incidents with the Glock 21 and I have personally witnessed a less dramatic incident with a Glock 21 magazine blown out of the weapon and shooter's hand bruised. In all incidents reported, reloads were used." - 'Naish Piazza







Front Sight recently witnessed damage to another Glock 21 .45 ACP, this time using factory new rounds from American Ammunition of Miami, Florida. A second Front Sight student reported that he experienced something with a Glock 22 and .40 S&W ammunition from the same manufacturer. In each instance the students suffered bruising on their hands and some minor lacerations, and in both cases, the failures occurred after a few hundred rounds of ammunition fired.

One of the features of American Ammunition is its use of "completely copper coated" rounds, a plating rather than the conventional copper jacketed bullet. Due to the polygonal style of rifling in their barrels, Glock recommends using only factory new, copper jacketed ammunition. Soft lead projectiles as well as copper-coated or copper-washed bullets, build up a a lead residue in the leade of the barrel (just in front of the chamber). Such an accumulation will in time dramatically increase chamber pressures during firing, and this leads to rupture of the unsupported area (at six o'clock) of the case web. Typically, the magazine is "blown out" of the grip frame and quite often serious damage, as in cracking and bulging, is done to the sides of the frame.



Many more pics at the link!
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 11:52:09 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 11:55:05 AM EDT
Quarterbore, you can be reassured that this MUST have been faked by some 1911 nut. Everybody knows that GROCKS are the best damn thing since sliced bread.
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 12:20:30 PM EDT
Hey guys, I'm all with you as I own a Glock 17 and a Glock 21 with no fear...

It is just important that everyone is aware of what happens when you get sloppy when reloading just like the KABOOM with the AR-15 we have discussed here so many times were pistol powder was used...

I think the Glock is the BEST combat handgun out there and I can't think of anything I would replace them with...

Now, that doesn't mean I wouldn't like a Kimber 1911 some day.... but that is for target shooting, the Glock is for Combat!
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 12:29:08 PM EDT
Heh. I guess you must have missed the irony part. You can keep your fantastic plastic. I'll stick with ol' slabsides, thank you very much.
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 12:56:29 PM EDT


I'd post the pic of mine again but Kevin would start crying. [>(][>(][>(]
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 1:03:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/15/2001 12:56:17 PM EDT by Kevin]
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 1:24:00 PM EDT

That's all I shoot in any of my centerfire handguns, all my .223 ARs, and 12ga shotguns.

Everyone should have a gun that can't digest a common handload.
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 1:54:22 PM EDT
Oh shit, here we go.
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 2:05:07 PM EDT
Hmmm, almost 2k lead reloads through my G30, with not even a hint of pressure. Amazing what a good cleaning will do for the old polygonal rifling.....
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 2:21:04 PM EDT
I was shooting IPSC before Glocks. I still remember us making fun of them when they came out. I have seen a lot of then in the IPSC matchs, but today there is still more 1911's where I shoot, and through the years I have been around a hellva lot more 1911's than Glocks. So it is intresting that I have only seen a Glock blow up. Had a 22C blow up on a course I was running the other day. The whole top of the barrel's locking lug was vaporized and the slide was bowed out, trigger parts everywhere etc etc etc. Don't every remember seeing a 1911 do that, not to say it can't. I have a 17 and a 19 Glock.

Bill
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 6:08:06 PM EDT
I don't care how often I clean it, but as a general rule with my H&K Polygonal rifled .45 Tactical, I don't shoot exposed lead bullets.
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 6:18:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:Points to remember:

Glocks outsell other brands of handguns dramatically, and for good reason, so there are more of them in use. More guns means numerically more guns with problems, even if the ratio of problems to total guns is similar or smaller.

Any gun can be blown up due to poor quality reloads, defective factory ammunition, or poor copper plating on plated bullets. In almost every known case, reloads were being used.

Early Federal .40S&W had excessively thin case webs, and was responsible for many of the early kB!s (which were virtually unknown before the .40 Glocks were released). This ammo has caused kB!s in HK USPs and SIGs as well. The affected ammo was recalled, the cases redesigned, and almost no problems with factory ammo have been reported since.

-Troy



Like Sony tvs.
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 8:02:26 PM EDT
That sight shows several KB's and, interesting, they were all Glocks. And people fuss that 1911's can stovepipe....blow up....stove pipe....hmmm....I gotta go with the 1911 on this guys. I don't hear about them exploding (you can run over them with a train & no destroy ol' slabsides)
Link Posted: 11/15/2001 11:39:30 PM EDT
Ok guys, everyone who thinks their Glock is about to kb! I'll be happy to help ya'. Just send your Glocks to me via UPS and end your misery. I've owned a G17 for several years now with no problems. Finish on the slide is a bit worn, other then that works like a charm.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 4:00:25 AM EDT
The only reason the 1911 folks don't have KB's is because they have to use underpowered loads to increase their shot times. At least in the race gun category anyway.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 5:49:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/16/2001 5:44:58 AM EDT by Quarterbore]
Here is to a link on the same page with more Glock related KBs and other stuff...

SEE THIS LINK for GLOCK KABOOM area....

communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/gz-glock-kb.html

... the following has more glock stuff....

communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/gz-glock-dir.html

Link Posted: 11/16/2001 6:12:24 AM EDT
I had a 21 kb a few months ago with factory ammo. Fred at Glock was more than helpful. The gun was about 10 years old and had thousands of rounds through it (all factory,no reloads or lead). Glock, stood behind their product and replaced it even though the ammo company agreed it was a problem with their round. I still carry the 21 and love shooting it.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 6:47:21 AM EDT
After owning a dozen Glocks and countless other pistols, I would trust my and my families life without question with them. Anyone can make a gun KB with improperly reloaded ammo. That's no new news. If you do what you're supposed to do, you just don't NORMALLY have these problems. There are always exceptions to the rule. My M21 is by far the best functioning .45 I have ever owned. Note: Not the most accurate but damn fine enough.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 11:48:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
Points to remember:

Glocks outsell other brands of handguns dramatically, and for good reason, so there are more of them in use. More guns means numerically more guns with problems, even if the ratio of problems to total guns is similar or smaller.

Any gun can be blown up due to poor quality reloads, defective factory ammunition, or poor copper plating on plated bullets. In almost every known case, reloads were being used.

Early Federal .40S&W had excessively thin case webs, and was responsible for many of the early kB!s (which were virtually unknown before the .40 Glocks were released). This ammo has caused kB!s in HK USPs and SIGs as well. The affected ammo was recalled, the cases redesigned, and almost no problems with factory ammo have been reported since.

-Troy



Here is a point to remember too:

All of us HK shooters are STILL waiting for a pic of a KBed HK (and no the pic of 9mm butchered by the "gunsmith" doesn't count)

G-Lock has problems. There is no question. As a responsible company - they should do something about it - like their trigger issue and AD's in the early '90s. The sooner the G-lock fans quit making excuses, the sooner a safer product will be on the market.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 12:56:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 2:35:50 PM EDT
I have 2 Glocks, a G22 and a G27. The only problem I have ever had with either one is when I bought cheap ammo. Wolf steel-cased ammo broke the extractor on my G22. Other than that, not a single hiccup. And I trust my LIFE to my G27, as I carry it (concealed) every single day.

just my $0.02.

Link Posted: 11/16/2001 5:20:19 PM EDT
I was looking into the KB of the Glock and saw the package of ammo that was being used in the firearm and Holy Sh**, That ammo is very dangerous. We had some 9MM ammo like that and it was loaded very very hot. We have never ordered any more for fear that it might blow up a gun and looks like I was right, American Ammo, Sheesh . That is a don't buy, Never touch the stuff.
Link Posted: 11/16/2001 7:00:53 PM EDT
I'd venture to say a 1911 won't KB because even if it's out of battery, the cartridge is still fully supported by the chamber and breechface. If the slide were further out, the hammer couldn't contact the firing pin at all.

I'm looking at my SA1911 right now (with a snap cap in it). On mine, the hammer won't drop until it's FULLY in battery. Yep, trigger won't release the hammer until it's fully in battery. SO, the only KB I could see happening would be from an overpowered load. But heck, even with a .45ACP, you probably can't put enough powder in it to do more than throw some flame!

Link Posted: 11/16/2001 7:38:19 PM EDT
Here's a topic that never come up before!

Let me just say my Glock 22, bought in 1995, has fired over 15,000 rounds (a conservative estimate), and 98% have been my reloaded ammo. The Glock 40S&W models have been most suspect, yet obviously, my own empirical data suggests KB's are not a concern. I imagine a brand new Glock could chamber a single round reloaded by a negligent hobbyist and suffer catastrophic over-pressure damage, so what?
Link Posted: 11/17/2001 8:39:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
Show me an instance when the ammo wasn't at fault and we can talk.

-Troy



Show me an HK KB
Link Posted: 11/17/2001 9:09:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15FENCER:
I'd venture to say a 1911 won't KB because even if it's out of battery, the cartridge is still fully supported by the chamber and breechface. If the slide were further out, the hammer couldn't contact the firing pin at all.

I'm looking at my SA1911 right now (with a snap cap in it). On mine, the hammer won't drop until it's FULLY in battery. Yep, trigger won't release the hammer until it's fully in battery. SO, the only KB I could see happening would be from an overpowered load. But heck, even with a .45ACP, you probably can't put enough powder in it to do more than throw some flame!




And you have just stated the entire problem. Autos with hammers will not be able to fire unless it's slide is completely closed and locked up. I'd be interested to know problems with other hammerless automatics. I'm not saying reloads aren't at fault in at least some of these scenarios, but if I took an automatic with a hammer, and fired it while the slide was not completely forward(with a real hammer and a punch), it would most likely kaboom, even with factory ammo.

I don't have a problem with Glocks concept, or manufacturing and quality. Personally I don't like the triggers, but what I complain most about is that they don't correct design flaws. They just keep making the same models without updating them. They should make the gun have the ability to be broken down without pulling the trigger(have heard a few cases of AD's because of this). They should make the gun unable to fire unless the slide is completely forward(taken care of by default on most hammered gun, so it understandable they did not anticipate for this problem to occur).

We aren't talking about major changes here, externally the gun would look the same, and only a few internal parts would need to be added/changed/removed.

I know Beretta fixed problems with their pistols(slidestop), Sig fixed theirs(reinforced frames), and 1911's have had many slight changes by the different manufacturers over time. It's time Glock made a couple small changes to their design, and these two problems would be eliminated.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 8:36:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SIX:

Originally Posted By Troy:
Points to remember:

Glocks outsell other brands of handguns dramatically, and for good reason, so there are more of them in use. More guns means numerically more guns with problems, even if the ratio of problems to total guns is similar or smaller.

Any gun can be blown up due to poor quality reloads, defective factory ammunition, or poor copper plating on plated bullets. In almost every known case, reloads were being used.

Early Federal .40S&W had excessively thin case webs, and was responsible for many of the early kB!s (which were virtually unknown before the .40 Glocks were released). This ammo has caused kB!s in HK USPs and SIGs as well. The affected ammo was recalled, the cases redesigned, and almost no problems with factory ammo have been reported since.

-Troy



Here is a point to remember too:

All of us HK shooters are STILL waiting for a pic of a KBed HK (and no the pic of 9mm butchered by the "gunsmith" doesn't count)

G-Lock has problems. There is no question. As a responsible company - they should do something about it - like their trigger issue and AD's in the early '90s. The sooner the G-lock fans quit making excuses, the sooner a safer product will be on the market.



Anyone with a double loaded round could blow up any new gun. Certainly not Glock specific.

Remember though in the 90s when all the ADs were happening, it was mostly police keeping their fingers on the trigger while re-holstering or cleaning the gun with a round in the chamber. Get some real info.
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 9:14:57 AM EDT
Where are all the HK's with 100,000+ full power loads through them??? If you want to do a semi-scientific study, just go to a local range that rents guns for their range. I personally held a G21 and a G17 that both had more than 70,000 rounds through them. The only failure was both mag releases needed to be replaced. However, the same can not be said for the HK's. Their HK USP9 and USP45 had both been rebuilt by HK at 30,000, and had just pulled the USP45 off of the rack to be rebuilt again!
Link Posted: 11/20/2001 3:11:53 PM EDT
That doesn't even approach "semi" scientific.

My point is simple - everyone knows all guns can blow if they are subject to an overcharged round.

There are many reports of glocks blowing using factory ammo.

There are many pics of blown glocks on the web.

I have yet to see a pic of an HK or find a credible story relating to a blown HK.

I have both glock and HK.

I think that there is enough evidence to suggest that there is a problem with Glocks above 9MM to warrant Glock as a manufacturer doing something about it. Similar to the trigger incident of a few years ago.

I also think that until there is a movement on the part of Glock owners to document in detail these KBs using factory ammo - Glock as a company will gladly turn a blind eye.

Link Posted: 11/20/2001 4:45:51 PM EDT
oops lmao! what a dumbass!
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