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Posted: 5/10/2023 1:42:35 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I spoke to the owner of Berelli. Unfortunately, those $2400 rifles were a one-time thing at that price. He bought all of them in that config from B&T - no other place had that rifle. They sold out about a week ago and doesn't anticipate getting them in that config, nor anywhere near that price again. That's why they had the odd config - to be importable (A2 flash hider, new trigger, new stock, etc - all US replacement parts for import). I know you're referring to rifles, but same price https://www.bereli.com/shooting/firearms/pistols/b-t-apc223-semi-automatic-223-remington-8-7-barrel-polymer-frame-black-finish-30rd-1-magazine-optic-not-included/ |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 1:46:29 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know you're referring to rifles, but same price https://www.bereli.com/shooting/firearms/pistols/b-t-apc223-semi-automatic-223-remington-8-7-barrel-polymer-frame-black-finish-30rd-1-magazine-optic-not-included/ Completely different one you posted. I think that's a Gen 1 APC223 pistol. |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 1:54:28 PM EDT
[#3]
Well, it IS an APC223, and OP never specified what variation he was looking for.
Anyways OP, I say just pick one, cause I'm sure you're going to end up getting the others eventually. |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 3:47:25 PM EDT
[#4]
Thanks for all of the feedback. I’m still struggling to justify the $2k+ prices for the Scars, APC223 and XCRs. I just got a Gen 1 MCX in a funky orange finish for $1,155 shipped and it seems pretty impressive in terms of balance, fit, finish, ergonomics, etc. It’s hard to imagine these other guns are offer 2-2.5X as much in gun goodness. I even got the Perun for hundreds less than the APC223 at this point. It arrives tomorrow. It’s hard being a cheap bastard and still wanting nice things.
 
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Posted: 5/11/2023 12:12:53 AM EDT
[#5]
I struggled this past year between the APC 223/556 and the SCAR 16 NRCH. I chose the SCAR 16 for the following reasons:
1. I already have armorer’s tools for my SCAR 17, which are compatible with the 16. 2. I can get a Geissele trigger for the SCAR 16. With the B&T, you cannot use straight up AR triggers because the pins are longer on the B&T lower. Elfmann makes a compatible trigger, but I cannot stand it (tried it at a LGS that has two APC 556s with the trigger installed). 3. Spare parts. I can get bolts, bolt carriers. The situation is getting better though for the APC 556, but B&T’s website stocks far more APC 9 parts than for their rifle caliber guns. 4. Disassembly to install flash hiders, etc is far easier on the SCAR. With the APC 556, you need a special vise block for the upper receiver vs send it to B&T vs carefully remove the trunion screws that are loc-tite in place to remove the barrel to work on it. 5. FN uses a chrome lined CHF barrel. Chrome lining is nice when you run suppressed. 6. more after market rails and accessories for the SCAR At the end of the day, both shoot 5.56 NATO and run well suppressed. I may pick up an APC some day but I have too many projects going. I need to focus more on range time and buying 77 gr SMK to shoot than buying more 5.56 rifles these days. |
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Posted: 5/11/2023 12:31:51 AM EDT
[#6]
 My vote is 16S |
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Posted: 5/11/2023 12:48:45 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I struggled this past year between the APC 223/556 and the SCAR 16 NRCH. I chose the SCAR 16 for the following reasons: 1. I already have armorer's tools for my SCAR 17, which are compatible with the 16. 2. I can get a Geissele trigger for the SCAR 16. With the B&T, you cannot use straight up AR triggers because the pins are longer on the B&T lower. Elfmann makes a compatible trigger, but I cannot stand it (tried it at a LGS that has two APC 556s with the trigger installed). 3. Spare parts. I can get bolts, bolt carriers. The situation is getting better though for the APC 556, but B&T's website stocks far more APC 9 parts than for their rifle caliber guns. 4. Disassembly to install flash hiders, etc is far easier on the SCAR. With the APC 556, you need a special vise block for the upper receiver vs send it to B&T vs carefully remove the trunion screws that are loc-tite in place to remove the barrel to work on it. 5. FN uses a chrome lined CHF barrel. Chrome lining is nice when you run suppressed. 6. more after market rails and accessories for the SCAR At the end of the day, both shoot 5.56 NATO and run well suppressed. I may pick up an APC some day but I have too many projects going. I need to focus more on range time and buying 77 gr SMK to shoot than buying more 5.56 rifles these days. 2 - You can just re-use the pins that come in the stock trigger. Further, you can still use AR pins - they work and lock in place, even if they don't extend all the way to the ends of the plastic lower. 4 - Can't comment on the barrel - but the flash hider was significantly easier to remove on my APC556 than it was on my SCAR17 with the jam nut. 5 - AFAIK, if you shoot the SCAR suppressed, you void FN's warranty. The APC556 is made to be suppressed and is 100% supported by B&T. Points 3 and 6 - Yes. The SCAR has been out since 2004. The B&T APC556 is, what... 15 years younger? It would stand to reason that it needs some time to catch up in that regard. The SCAR rifles will still always be more popular in the US than the APC556 because of its military pedigree and use in GWOT, Afghanistan and Iraq. |
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Posted: 5/11/2023 10:00:35 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I struggled this past year between the APC 223/556 and the SCAR 16 NRCH. I chose the SCAR 16 for the following reasons: 1. I already have armorer’s tools for my SCAR 17, which are compatible with the 16. 2. I can get a Geissele trigger for the SCAR 16. With the B&T, you cannot use straight up AR triggers because the pins are longer on the B&T lower. Elfmann makes a compatible trigger, but I cannot stand it (tried it at a LGS that has two APC 556s with the trigger installed). 3. Spare parts. I can get bolts, bolt carriers. The situation is getting better though for the APC 556, but B&T’s website stocks far more APC 9 parts than for their rifle caliber guns. 4. Disassembly to install flash hiders, etc is far easier on the SCAR. With the APC 556, you need a special vise block for the upper receiver vs send it to B&T vs carefully remove the trunion screws that are loc-tite in place to remove the barrel to work on it. 5. FN uses a chrome lined CHF barrel. Chrome lining is nice when you run suppressed. 6. more after market rails and accessories for the SCAR At the end of the day, both shoot 5.56 NATO and run well suppressed. I may pick up an APC some day but I have too many projects going. I need to focus more on range time and buying 77 gr SMK to shoot than buying more 5.56 rifles these days. One thing that really sucks with a SCAR is if you modify it or run it suppressed … FN won’t stand behind it. The factory trigger on the APC is actually quite good and I see no reason to replace it. It feels like a G2S. Even though parts aren’t listed too much for the APC223 guns … a quick email to BT remedies that issue easily. You don’t need to send your BT in for a flash hider change. Remove the handguard. Vise up the gas block and remove the flash hider. No issues. BT uses CHF barrels too with their own nitride coating. Chrome lining is really only edges it out under automatic fire … I’ve had a SCAR barrel chrome lining flake … |
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Posted: 5/11/2023 11:20:20 AM EDT
[#9]
If there was one thing that I hate about the apc223, is that there isn't shit for replacement barrels or handguards available. Yea I guess bt-parts has the 12.5" barrel right now, FOR $850, without a handguard! Ridiculous.
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Posted: 5/11/2023 12:31:06 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If there was one thing that I hate about the apc223, is that there isn't shit for replacement barrels or handguards available. Yea I guess bt-parts has the 12.5" barrel right now, FOR $850, without a handguard! Ridiculous. Wait. Did you expect a high end rifle … from Switzerland … to have a cheap barrel that is made in Switzerland? SCAR barrels aren’t cheap either and more expensive. |
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Posted: 5/11/2023 1:17:36 PM EDT
[#11]
Cheap? No. Reasonable, yes. And scars are also more expensive.
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Posted: 5/11/2023 1:34:18 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Cheap? No. Reasonable, yes. And scars are also more expensive. SCAR barrels are $1200 … APC223 barrels $850 … About on point relative to their sales price … considering that now most SCAR barrels are US made not Belgian. APC is in less circulation than the SCAR and offers a more reasonably priced replacement barrel and really firearm … I’d call that a positive thing … and more customer focused … without all the string attached warranty bureaucracy from FN. For the record. I think SCARs are awesome. |
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Posted: 5/11/2023 7:41:50 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: SCAR barrels are $1200 … APC223 barrels $850 … About on point relative to their sales price … considering that now most SCAR barrels are US made not Belgian. APC is in less circulation than the SCAR and offers a more reasonably priced replacement barrel and really firearm … I’d call that a positive thing … and more customer focused … without all the string attached warranty bureaucracy from FN. For the record. I think SCARs are awesome. Ok bud |
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Posted: 5/11/2023 11:15:52 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My comments on your points: 2 - You can just re-use the pins that come in the stock trigger. Further, you can still use AR pins - they work and lock in place, even if they don't extend all the way to the ends of the plastic lower. 4 - Can't comment on the barrel - but the flash hider was significantly easier to remove on my APC556 than it was on my SCAR17 with the jam nut. 5 - AFAIK, if you shoot the SCAR suppressed, you void FN's warranty. The APC556 is made to be suppressed and is 100% supported by B&T. Points 3 and 6 - Yes. The SCAR has been out since 2004. The B&T APC556 is, what... 15 years younger? It would stand to reason that it needs some time to catch up in that regard. The SCAR rifles will still always be more popular in the US than the APC556 because of its military pedigree and use in GWOT, Afghanistan and Iraq. Triggers: The Elf triggers I have seen on APC 223s possess a special screw that locks down on the bottom of the lower receiver to prevent it from walking out, in addition to the threaded pins that prevent trigger walk (Elf's special). The specs between the APC stock trigger and an AR trigger are not the same. B&T for a fact does not recommend that you use just any off the shelf AR trigger, but of course, there are plenty of people doing just that. I guess it's a personal decision, but not something I'm keen on doing for a $3k rifle. How do you remove the handguard on the APC? Please post pictures. I'm sure it is simple, but they never talk about it. They finally posted an instruction manual for the Pro online: https://bt-usa.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/TM-APC223_300_308-PRO-HA-EN.pdf Click on resources: https://bt-usa.com/products/apc223-pistol/ The reason I ask is because when I asked these people 2-3 years ago for a basic armorer's manual I was told to fly a kite. At least I have offhand resources for the FN SCAR, and yes FN does suck about customer support for their platform. The suppressor thing is ridiculous...at least make a list of "approved" suppressors. On another note, barrel swaps are more difficult on the APC. B&T Parts sells a vise block for the APC series, and B&T could have done themselves a favor by using torqued screws like what LMT or FN did with their rifles. The APC's screws into the trunnion are not meant to swap barrels routinely though of course, but I think a better system could have been devised for armorer level service. I am unaware that B&T will back just any suppressor on their rifles. I was under the impression it must be Surefire or B&T cans. I will call them and ask. If I get time tomorrow, I will try calling B&T and ask about spare parts, suppressor usage, what parts are US made, etc. Believe me, I want an excuse to buy another B&T product, but the barriers to me are on the level of JDI with Sig pistols. At least they got off their keisters with the Pro series. |
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Posted: 5/11/2023 11:20:04 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: One thing that really sucks with a SCAR is if you modify it or run it suppressed … FN won’t stand behind it. The factory trigger on the APC is actually quite good and I see no reason to replace it. It feels like a G2S. Even though parts aren’t listed too much for the APC223 guns … a quick email to BT remedies that issue easily. You don’t need to send your BT in for a flash hider change. Remove the handguard. Vise up the gas block and remove the flash hider. No issues. BT uses CHF barrels too with their own nitride coating. Chrome lining is really only edges it out under automatic fire … I’ve had a SCAR barrel chrome lining flake … Agree on the suppressed use thing, and as I mention above, I was under the impression that B&T will only back the use of B&T and Surefire suppressors on their guns. I will call and ask. I like the factory trigger as well, but I was lucky enough to snag a Geissele before they stopped making them. The sole reason was for 922R, since I turned my APC 9 into a tax stamped SBR. Would be nice if they were all purely AR trigger compatible. I asked a few years ago about spare parts on the APC 223 and they were not available yet. I will call and ask them again regarding bolts, etc. They have a few small parts available but not the major things I can get for the SCAR. With all the craziness in our country, I think an ample supply of spare parts are essential for any semiautomatic rifle. Show me pics on handguard removal. I am curious since they don't offer an armorer's manual. I know B&T nitrides their barrels, but I have a hard on for chrome lining for some weird reason. lol |
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Posted: 5/12/2023 8:10:29 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Triggers: The Elf triggers I have seen on APC 223s possess a special screw that locks down on the bottom of the lower receiver to prevent it from walking out, in addition to the threaded pins that prevent trigger walk (Elf's special). The specs between the APC stock trigger and an AR trigger are not the same. B&T for a fact does not recommend that you use just any off the shelf AR trigger, but of course, there are plenty of people doing just that. I guess it's a personal decision, but not something I'm keen on doing for a $3k rifle. How do you remove the handguard on the APC? Please post pictures. I'm sure it is simple, but they never talk about it. They finally posted an instruction manual for the Pro online: https://bt-usa.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/TM-APC223_300_308-PRO-HA-EN.pdf Click on resources: https://bt-usa.com/products/apc223-pistol/ The reason I ask is because when I asked these people 2-3 years ago for a basic armorer's manual I was told to fly a kite. At least I have offhand resources for the FN SCAR, and yes FN does suck about customer support for their platform. The suppressor thing is ridiculous...at least make a list of "approved" suppressors. On another note, barrel swaps are more difficult on the APC. B&T Parts sells a vise block for the APC series, and B&T could have done themselves a favor by using torqued screws like what LMT or FN did with their rifles. The APC's screws into the trunnion are not meant to swap barrels routinely though of course, but I think a better system could have been devised for armorer level service. I am unaware that B&T will back just any suppressor on their rifles. I was under the impression it must be Surefire or B&T cans. I will call them and ask. If I get time tomorrow, I will try calling B&T and ask about spare parts, suppressor usage, what parts are US made, etc. Believe me, I want an excuse to buy another B&T product, but the barriers to me are on the level of JDI with Sig pistols. At least they got off their keisters with the Pro series. To remove the handguard is two torx ... simple ... slides off ... The upper vise block is only needed if you are TORQUING on a new barrel to the existing trunnion ... if you are buying a complete 223/556 barrel assembly (which includes the barrel install into a new trunnion) as sold by B&T ... the vise blocks aren't needed per say ... B&T doesn't care what suppressor you use ... now of course they recommend B&T/SF but they don't care ... Spare parts are Swiss ... so far nothing is made in the US direct from B&T USA outside of their suppressors ... all firearms are imported as pistols ... the 16" rifles come into the country as 16" pistols ... B&T USA then uses the Efltmann trigger, US muzzle device, US pistol grip, US rear M4 style stock and US magazine to get 922r compliant ... |
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Posted: 5/12/2023 12:20:56 PM EDT
[#17]
The APC handguard is just as easy to remove as the SCAR handguard, a couple machine screws and a quick tug.
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Posted: 5/12/2023 5:54:46 PM EDT
[#18]
Thank you for the pictures and the replies.
I called B&T today for more clarifications and spoke with a customer service rep. Since the website is messed up, here are the real codes for the new APC Pro 223 rifles/pistols (non-reciprocating charging handles): 16.5" rifle BT-361659 (it also weighs around 7.3-7.4 lbs, not over 8). 12.5" pistol BT-361658 10.4" pistol BT-361657 They are currently using a NATO spec flash hider and not a Surefire compatible one. To remove the handguard, he notes that the screws, like the trunnion screws, are held in place with red loctite and need 500 degree heat to remove. Hence, use a butane torch like the SCAR's lower handguard screw. Trunnion screws are all red loctite. As you pointed out, the vise is for installing and removing the barrel. Not needed for the flash hider, although in my opinion, and upper receiver insert like what we have with our ARs would be great as well. I do have a good vise and barrel vise for that matter. No armorer's manual for the new APC 223 pro model is available yet but they are working on it. 922 R parts are: pistol grip, magazine (3), and Elftmann trigger (3). The MBT stock unfortunately is Swiss made, which is a shame, because it looks cool. Spare bolts and bolt carriers for the APC 223 are not available yet. They are willing to special order it. As point out, suppressed use won't void the warranty BUT, if you use some gassy POS can that causes damage to your gun, you're on the hook for it. I think that is fair enough. The suppressor does not need to be B&T or Surefire necessarily, but that's what they recommend. Much better phone call experience than what I had with my interactions with them pre-pandemic and just two years ago. I guess I'll order one this summer, after I get some other projects out of the way. I just wish there were better trigger options. |
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Posted: 5/12/2023 6:04:17 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thank you for the pictures and the replies. I called B&T today for more clarifications and spoke with a customer service rep. Since the website is messed up, here are the real codes for the new APC Pro 223 rifles/pistols (non-reciprocating charging handles): 16.5" rifle BT-361659 (it also weighs around 7.3-7.4 lbs, not over 8). 12.5" pistol BT-361658 10.4" pistol BT-361657 They are currently using a NATO spec flash hider and not a Surefire compatible one. To remove the handguard, he notes that the screws, like the trunnion screws, are held in place with red loctite and need 500 degree heat to remove. Hence, use a butane torch like the SCAR's lower handguard screw. Trunnion screws are all red loctite. As you pointed out, the vise is for installing and removing the barrel. Not needed for the flash hider, although in my opinion, and upper receiver insert like what we have with our ARs would be great as well. I do have a good vise and barrel vise for that matter. No armorer's manual for the new APC 223 pro model is available yet but they are working on it. 922 R parts are: pistol grip, magazine (3), and Elftmann trigger (3). The MBT stock unfortunately is Swiss made, which is a shame, because it looks cool. Spare bolts and bolt carriers for the APC 223 are not available yet. They are willing to special order it. As point out, suppressed use won't void the warranty BUT, if you use some gassy POS can that causes damage to your gun, you're on the hook for it. I think that is fair enough. The suppressor does not need to be B&T or Surefire necessarily, but that's what they recommend. Much better phone call experience than what I had with my interactions with them pre-pandemic and just two years ago. I guess I'll order one this summer, after I get some other projects out of the way. I just wish there were better trigger options. Thanks for making that call! My handguard screws were blue Loctite... for what it's worth ... torqued to 35 in/lbs ... The factory trigger is solid ... you can pair it with JPs reliability spring set for an AR15 and be on your way  |
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Posted: 5/12/2023 8:17:04 PM EDT
[#20]
The SCAR is super sweet.
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Posted: 5/12/2023 9:05:22 PM EDT
[#21]
The Perun X-16 and used ARX100 came in.
 
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Posted: 5/12/2023 9:12:17 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks for making that call! My handguard screws were blue Loctite... for what it's worth ... torqued to 35 in/lbs ... The factory trigger is solid ... you can pair it with JPs reliability spring set for an AR15 and be on your way Makes more sense to use blue loctite on a handguard screw, especially with the handguard appears to be indexed to the receiver. How did you figure out it was 35 in-lbs? You used a torque wrench until it broke free? An armorer's manual and having someone on Rumble reviewing these rifles in depth would be helpful to all. B&T has the potential to garner a huge following in this country assuming our nation doesn't go to shit with gun laws and import restrictions. They could even machine these rifles here if they found the right place for it. They seem to be well laid out and designed. The rep told me the factory trigger is available with pistol configurations only. Rifle configs require the Elftmann trigger due to 922R. I think you need at least 5-6 parts on APCs to make them compliant. I forget which. |
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Posted: 5/12/2023 9:13:08 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Perun X-16 and used ARX100 came in. https://i.ibb.co/RCqGnp7/CD7-F78-BF-8249-4-C1-C-BFFE-1-E447-E7-D637-C.gif https://i.ibb.co/YWfMFDw/F020-C85-E-40-FF-4-D15-AC51-EFC20-E62-F186.jpg Give us a range report on the Perun. It is a very interesting concept. |
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Posted: 5/12/2023 9:33:33 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Give us a range report on the Perun. It is a very interesting concept. Will do. It feels crazy light. I only had a few minutes to mess with it today, but will try to get a few guns out to the range soon. I need that Carmel to get out. |
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Posted: 5/12/2023 9:54:42 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Makes more sense to use blue loctite on a handguard screw, especially with the handguard appears to be indexed to the receiver. How did you figure out it was 35 in-lbs? You used a torque wrench until it broke free? An armorer's manual and having someone on Rumble reviewing these rifles in depth would be helpful to all. B&T has the potential to garner a huge following in this country assuming our nation doesn't go to shit with gun laws and import restrictions. They could even machine these rifles here if they found the right place for it. They seem to be well laid out and designed. The rep told me the factory trigger is available with pistol configurations only. Rifle configs require the Elftmann trigger due to 922R. I think you need at least 5-6 parts on APCs to make them compliant. I forget which. Yup. Torque wrench until it broke free… BT is gaining a lot of stream in this country already especially with 9mm PCC … with SCARs and MCXs creeping up and up … the Swiss APCs are near bargain now … |
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Posted: 5/13/2023 9:35:32 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yup. Torque wrench until it broke free… BT is gaining a lot of stream in this country already especially with 9mm PCC … with SCARs and MCXs creeping up and up … the Swiss APCs are near bargain now … I love my APC 9 SBR  Attached File |
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Posted: 5/13/2023 9:58:50 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryBest latest evolution of the SMG/PCC ... |
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Posted: 5/13/2023 8:58:37 PM EDT
[#28]
I was in the same dilemma not to long ago. I ended up with the SCAR 16 I bought an otb griffin sbr suppressor for it. I also bought the SCAR 17 with an otb griffin suppressor two weapons I'll never get rid of.
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Posted: 5/22/2023 9:22:20 PM EDT
[#29]
The XCR took the next spot. It should get here by Friday. Starting to regret passing on a used Scar with Eotech at $2,500 shipped (IE $2,100 for the Scar which was a decent deal). The APC223, ACR and Tommy Built G36s are just too much for how cheap I am.
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Posted: 5/22/2023 9:51:42 PM EDT
[#30]
Great choice, you will be very happy
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Posted: 5/22/2023 9:52:04 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The XCR took the next spot. It should get here by Friday. Starting to regret passing on a used Scar with Eotech at $2,500 shipped (IE $2,100 for the Scar which was a decent deal). The APC223, ACR and Tommy Built G36s are just too much for how cheap I am. https://i.ibb.co/0JNv7rq/B6-E034-A4-5-F3-D-4771-AF7-B-B534-B0-B2982-F.jpg img hosting |
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Posted: 5/22/2023 9:57:51 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You've got a great collection there as it is! Frankly though, I think the SCAR 16 is a solution looking for a problem. I'm not sure what it provides that I can't get from a rifle that's 25-50% less expensive. The SCAR 17 at least has some benefits that justify its price a bit more. I agree. I LOVE the SCAR 17. It's my favorite rifle, and honestly kind of in a league of its own in regards to battle rifles. The SCAR 16, though... I don't see why anyone would want one when a Bren 2 is just over 1/2 the price and arguably a better rifle - better ergos, stock trigger, butt stock, upper is 7076, and the action is way nicer. Only things I think the SCAR 16 has an advantage on is the gas system, and it's more accurate/better barrel. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 12:53:03 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree. I LOVE the SCAR 17. It's my favorite rifle, and honestly kind of in a league of its own in regards to battle rifles. The SCAR 16, though... I don't see why anyone would want one when a Bren 2 is just over 1/2 the price and arguably a better rifle - better ergos, stock trigger, butt stock, upper is 7076, and the action is way nicer. Only things I think the SCAR 16 has an advantage on is the gas system, and it's more accurate/better barrel. The jury is still out on the Bren 2’s durability but I hope it proves as stout as the SCAR rifles, Ukraine is certainly making good use of them. Considering the SCARs rep for durability and reliability based upon GWOT as well as Battlefield Vegas I’d say “the action is way nicer” and “the upper is 7076” is meaningless other than a feel good measure. The rifle system has proven itself quite well. The SCAR line has become the de facto standard to beat yet none have (yet). The Bren 2 holds real promise as does the APC but time will tell. Competition to build a better mousetrap in this area of firearms is a great thing to see. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 1:29:07 AM EDT
[#34]
When CZ provides better support and a litany of spare parts, I will try a Bren 2. I bought another SCAR (16 NRCH), because FN actually supports the platform (they could do better of course).
Having said, I guess an APC 223 is next on my list once I get some projects done. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 10:55:54 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Great choice, you will be very happy Thx. At $1,675 (plus taxes, fees, shipping) the new XCR was still $200 cheaper than used Scar options and way cheaper than the others on the list. I’m hoping to get smart eventually and coalesce the collection around a couple of different platforms and shift the budget over to night vision, body armor, water collection, training for the fam and other stuff that should be on the radar. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 1:28:58 PM EDT
[#36]
To be fair, the HK MR556 stands out from the others because of its accuracy. It's certainly the most accurate of the bunch, and has proven durability/reliability.
The Scar16s or CZ or B&T will serve a different purpose, in my opinion, and are solid options. Just depends what you're looking for in a rifle. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 2:46:48 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To be fair, the HK MR556 stands out from the others because of its accuracy. It's certainly the most accurate of the bunch, and has proven durability/reliability. The Scar16s or CZ or B&T will serve a different purpose, in my opinion, and are solid options. Just depends what you're looking for in a rifle. Thank you for the feedback. I’m older than a white dog turd so they’re all more accurate than my eyes. That HK might be wasted on me. Ha ha. |
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Posted: 5/23/2023 8:13:28 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The XCR took the next spot. It should get here by Friday. Starting to regret passing on a used Scar with Eotech at $2,500 shipped (IE $2,100 for the Scar which was a decent deal). The APC223, ACR and Tommy Built G36s are just too much for how cheap I am. https://i.ibb.co/0JNv7rq/B6-E034-A4-5-F3-D-4771-AF7-B-B534-B0-B2982-F.jpg img hosting Since we are friends... Im glad I didnt bid on that XCR and left it at $1675  Good score dude!
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Posted: 5/23/2023 8:40:51 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Since we are friends... Im glad I didnt bid on that XCR and left it at $1675 Good score dude!Ha, thank you! I had my max set at $1,800 and was shocked it stayed as low as it did. |
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Posted: 5/24/2023 11:14:51 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To be fair, the HK MR556 stands out from the others because of its accuracy. It's certainly the most accurate of the bunch, and has proven durability/reliability. The Scar16s or CZ or B&T will serve a different purpose, in my opinion, and are solid options. Just depends what you're looking for in a rifle. MR556 is not that accurate mate ... |
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Posted: 5/24/2023 11:17:20 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: MR556 is not that accurate mate ... |
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Posted: 5/24/2023 11:18:58 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The jury is still out on the Bren 2’s durability but I hope it proves as stout as the SCAR rifles, Ukraine is certainly making good use of them. Considering the SCARs rep for durability and reliability based upon GWOT as well as Battlefield Vegas I’d say “the action is way nicer” and “the upper is 7076” is meaningless other than a feel good measure. The rifle system has proven itself quite well. The SCAR line has become the de facto standard to beat yet none have (yet). The Bren 2 holds real promise as does the APC but time will tell. Competition to build a better mousetrap in this area of firearms is a great thing to see. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I agree. I LOVE the SCAR 17. It's my favorite rifle, and honestly kind of in a league of its own in regards to battle rifles. The SCAR 16, though... I don't see why anyone would want one when a Bren 2 is just over 1/2 the price and arguably a better rifle - better ergos, stock trigger, butt stock, upper is 7076, and the action is way nicer. Only things I think the SCAR 16 has an advantage on is the gas system, and it's more accurate/better barrel. The jury is still out on the Bren 2’s durability but I hope it proves as stout as the SCAR rifles, Ukraine is certainly making good use of them. Considering the SCARs rep for durability and reliability based upon GWOT as well as Battlefield Vegas I’d say “the action is way nicer” and “the upper is 7076” is meaningless other than a feel good measure. The rifle system has proven itself quite well. The SCAR line has become the de facto standard to beat yet none have (yet). The Bren 2 holds real promise as does the APC but time will tell. Competition to build a better mousetrap in this area of firearms is a great thing to see. SCAR 16 is a great $2500 gun ... but not a $3800 gun that FN is now asking for them (for me anyways) ... especially since it isn't an imported model anymore ... Bren 2 right now is seeing some extensive usages in Ukraine with favorable reports ... That said ... I am a B&T fanboy and really dig the APC series of firearms ... One of the best bangs for the buck right now in my opinion is the Hellion ... |
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Posted: 5/24/2023 11:22:53 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Relative to what? APC556, SCAR, a decent free floated AR ... practically all will shoot ball the same ... practically all will shoot match the same once you find the match load your rifle likes ... The MR556 isn't uber accurate as all tend to believe it is because of the "swagger barrel" marketing ... what you do get is an unlined barrel that will start to keyhole faster than most other barrels out there ... albeit 99% of firearms owners won't ever see the round count to shoot one out ... but if left untreated/cared for ... that unblined barrel will suffer greatly from neglect more than others ... which will deteriorate the barrel ... they could at least QPQ it ... but naw ... |
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Posted: 5/24/2023 7:17:25 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ha, thank you! I had my max set at $1,800 and was shocked it stayed as low as it did. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Since we are friends... Im glad I didnt bid on that XCR and left it at $1675 Good score dude!Ha, thank you! I had my max set at $1,800 and was shocked it stayed as low as it did. Haha nice! I was watching it too, glad I didn't bid it up. I have a xcr-l and a xcr-m, they are very nice! Glad it went to someone who will enjoy it. |
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Posted: 5/24/2023 8:16:28 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: APC556, SCAR, a decent free floated AR ... practically all will shoot ball the same ... practically all will shoot match the same once you find the match load your rifle likes ... The MR556 isn't uber accurate as all tend to believe it is because of the "swagger barrel" marketing ... what you do get is an unlined barrel that will start to keyhole faster than most other barrels out there ... albeit 99% of firearms owners won't ever see the round count to shoot one out ... but if left untreated/cared for ... that unblined barrel will suffer greatly from neglect more than others ... which will deteriorate the barrel ... they could at least QPQ it ... but naw ... The gun can easily shoot less than 0.5 MOA with good ammo. This image is 0.45 MOA. The overall MOA from all the ammo types tested was 0.82 MOA Source: TFB 
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Posted: 5/25/2023 8:17:42 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The gun can easily shoot less than 0.5 MOA with good ammo. This image is 0.45 MOA. The overall MOA from all the ammo types tested was 0.82 MOA Source: TFB https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/HK-MR556A1-Accuracy.jpg * using some of the best match ammo available ... if you can feed that ammo all the time in your gun ... that is awesome Speer Gold Dot .223 Rem 75 Grain Black Hills .223 Rem 68 Grain Match HP Black Hills 5.56 77 Grain OTM Black Hills 5.56 77 Grain Tipped MatchKing As I said ... it returns the accuracy ... with match ... it runs the same practical accuracy as most other platforms with ball ... Hk should have at least QPQ the barrel on their latest update ... the unlined barrel really turns me off ... that said ... I worry more about what my AR10 DMR returns in accuracy vs a 5.56 carbine ... For the record ... the Hk 416 system is a great system ... |
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Posted: 5/26/2023 12:17:14 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: SCAR 16 is a great $2500 gun ... but not a $3800 gun that FN is now asking for them (for me anyways) ... especially since it isn't an imported model anymore ... Bren 2 right now is seeing some extensive usages in Ukraine with favorable reports ... That said ... I am a B&T fanboy and really dig the APC series of firearms ... One of the best bangs for the buck right now in my opinion is the Hellion ... I haven’t checked into the hellion but I agree on the rest. FN lost their minds with that price increase, it was disappointing to see. |
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Posted: 5/26/2023 8:53:02 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I haven’t checked into the hellion but I agree on the rest. FN lost their minds with that price increase, it was disappointing to see. Hellion is absolute my fav bullpup thus far ... (I've had them all) It shoots as soft as a DI AR and suppresses super nice ... Some of the ergos are a little wonky but in use make sense and totally workable ... especially for a bully ... it is a snag free design Hands down my favorite 5.56 gun to fire ... for sure with a can ... HS Produkt did an absolute awesome job ... |
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Posted: 5/30/2023 7:34:54 PM EDT
[#49]
Anyone have issues with certain scope mounts on the APC223/556? I read where some mounts didn't work. Here's the response from B&T when I asked about it vs. the SPC series:
Many of the optic mounts that have difficulty mounting on the APC223/APC556 top rail are unable to mount due to a lack of a large gap between the rail itself and the main body of the receiver. The SPC has a somewhat more AR style rail in that there is a gap between the rail and the body of the receiver. Unfortunately not all optic mounts that are compatible with the SPC are going to be compatible with the APC. Be a kick in the ass if you have a specific mount & scope ready, only to find the mount is incompatible. |
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Posted: 5/30/2023 8:39:00 PM EDT
[#50]
The scalar works mounts sometimes ones have had issues.
Garand thumb noted it. |
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