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Posted: 3/25/2006 8:00:47 PM EDT
I've been looking for a 5.56mm rifle as a range piece that could also double duty in an SHTF situation. I don't really want an AR; what I've read about break-in periods and the need for cleaning kind of turns me away from them. I do clean my firearms on a regular basis, generally after every range trip, but I'd rather not have to in order to be confident that it will go bang when I pull the trigger.

I was looking at the VEPR II, which is just about ideal; 20-inch barrel, high capacity magazines, better ergonomics than a regular AK, reliable and highly accurate. Downside of the VEPR is that you can't find them anywhere, and might not be able to for some time.

So, what are some other options? I'm looking for a semiauto rifle that can accept high-capacity magazines, in 5.56mm, with a barrel of approximately 20 inches in length (so that the bullet will reach a decent muzzle velocity), that is decently accurate (I'm not a particularly great shooter, I don't get anywhere near sub-MoA, so my rifle doesn't need to, but I don't want a Mini-14 either), and that is reliable without meticulous cleaning. Price isn't so important; I'm not in a great rush, so if it's out of my reach right now I'll just wait a bit until I have some disposable cash saved up.

I looked at an Arsenal SA-M5, but the 16-inch barrel kills that one for me. I really do want the long barrel, just in case. I guess if there aren't any other rifles that fit what I'm looking for, I'll just wait until the VEPRs are shipped again. Do any other rifles come to mind?
Link Posted: 3/25/2006 8:20:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2006 8:28:30 PM EDT by Achilles1]
I'd buy the new Sig 556 first when it's available as it has an adjustable gas system and steel upper receiver besides other good points. Second I would buy a POF piston driven AR from DSA. Both don't have the Stoner gas design problems your talking about, but a good AR can still be a reliable rifle, it'll just need a bit more care and regular maintenance.

If your looking at it to be an SHTF rifle also, you might think about a .308 that can also be better at the hunting role and taking heavier protected targets.

556

POF AT DSA

POF


Link Posted: 3/25/2006 9:21:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/25/2006 9:31:20 PM EDT by Foxtrot427]
there is the daewoo DR-200. There might be a 20" Fn SCAR. Also there is the Robinson Arms M96.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 1:16:13 AM EDT
And there's an AR. Don't believe everything you read.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 1:21:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NoAim:
And there's an AR. Don't believe everything you read.



+5.56
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 1:23:35 AM EDT
What is this "cleaning" you speak of?
Oh, the shot of CLP I shoot into the bolt every couple thousand rounds? That ain't no big deal.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 1:30:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rakky:

Originally Posted By NoAim:
And there's an AR. Don't believe everything you read.



+5.56



+2

but if you inist, there is the Armalite AR180 and maybe the keltec
these would be the only 2 that i would get as they also use the AR mags....

then there is the Robarm XCR, if they ever get to releasing it , but its still on the consensus
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 1:35:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rakky:

Originally Posted By NoAim:
And there's an AR. Don't believe everything you read.



+5.56




+1

The AR isn't necessarily the end-all of 5.56 rifles (I prefer the AUG), but it's by far the best thing out there at a reasonable price, parts are readily available, and aftermarket support is unmatched.


As for 5.56 AKs...

Out of curiosity, why do you want a 20" barrel, especially on an AK? It's pointless - added weight
and bulk for absolutely no benefit.

Downsides to 5.56 AKs are mag cost and availability, mag non-interchangeability between variants, nonstandard parts.

Don't count on being able to get parts for your 5.56 AK in 10 years. I have a Valmet and parts are totally non-existent. Haven't needed any yet, but the only way to get spares now is to buy a complete rifle.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 1:43:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2006 1:54:34 AM EDT by jollyroger]
I used to have a Daewoo DR200. It was ok, but I got more FTF's than I was comfortable with.
Sig556
Mini 14
Kel Tec
Valmet
KTR-03


Also, try reading on the AR discussion board for a while. You'll learn that there is a lot of bullshit that was started back in the Vietnam era that has long since been cured. I have an AR that I hardly clean, its nasty as all get out but it always shoots for me, rain, snow or shine.

ETA: Break in period my ass. I'll dump between 500 and 1000 rounds through it, go out the next weekend and do it all over again, after 1000 rounds or so (or if I'm bored) I simply run a bore snake down the barrel, chamber brush the chamber, wipe down and CLP the bolt carrier and bolt, and give the outside a quick wipe down to avoid rust. Easy.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 3:29:13 AM EDT
My thoughts:

In the you can go to the store and buy one category there are:
AR180B
POF or LW piston upper AR (less cleaning but every gun, AR or not, should have a shake down period before you trust your life to it)
SU-16
M96
Mini14 (plenty of people shoot 5.56 out of this despite the barrel marking)
Various 223 Ak's

In the vaporware category there are:
XCR
VQ evolution
Sig 556

Link Posted: 3/26/2006 6:34:50 AM EDT
How about the Vector V93.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 7:02:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 762mmFMJ:
How about the Vector V93.




My thoughts exactly !

True HK-93s are rediculously expensive due to the
import ban.
Currently the Vector V-93 is the best US built alternative
HK clone.
I've heard from many people that are quite happy with
their V-93s.
Mags are available in 20,25,30,and even 40 round capacities.
I think there's also a kit to adapt the 90 rounder AR-drum
to work in an HK-93 ,but I don't know if it's still available.

There's no last shot bolt stop to indicate when it's empty,but
if your after a really dependable 5.56 ,this is it.
Accesories of just about any type you can think of are available for
these.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 8:34:47 AM EDT
if there anre any more good 16in barrel ones could people list them anyway? I am looking too. Ill probably get an AR too.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 8:35:55 AM EDT
You're way off on your perception of the AR. There is no break in period or heavy maintainence.


You buy it, you shoot it, and if you don't clean it for 2000 rounds, it will still work.

Get what you like, but I think you'd be missing out for no reason.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 11:56:56 AM EDT
Well, I looked into the AR-15 Cleaning and Maintainance forum, and that's where I saw the references to break-in periods, etc. If these aren't true/aren't necessary, then that will indeed change my opinions.

I'm looking for a 20-inch barrel because I want to wring more velocity out of the 5.56 than the shorter barrels are capable of.

The Sig 556 looks interesting, definitely one to keep an eye on to see how it ends up performing.

What ARs are good as far as reliability goes? I looked at the Rock River Arms site, and their "Standard A4" design looks practical for what I want, but is this a good brand or should I look at something else?
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 12:04:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kylaer_:
Well, I looked into the AR-15 Cleaning and Maintainance forum, and that's where I saw the references to break-in periods, etc. If these aren't true/aren't necessary, then that will indeed change my opinions.

I'm looking for a 20-inch barrel because I want to wring more velocity out of the 5.56 than the shorter barrels are capable of.

The Sig 556 looks interesting, definitely one to keep an eye on to see how it ends up performing.

What ARs are good as far as reliability goes? I looked at the Rock River Arms site, and their "Standard A4" design looks practical for what I want, but is this a good brand or should I look at something else?



First off, let me say that a 16" bbl loses almost no velocity compared to 20". It's 14.5 and under where you start to lose a lot of velocity.

The break-in period you read about is usually only attributed to non-chromelined bbls. Basically, you shoot a few rounds, run a rod down it, shoot some more, and run a rod down again. It's isn't really necessary though. Some people think that you need to break in a chrome lined bbl too, but you really don't. Just a little misinformation.

Another source of the misinformation about the M16 reliablity is from vietnam, where they issued no cleaning kits and the wrong powder in the ammo, causing fouling. That has since been worked out and an Ar will keep up with an AK any day of the week. I personally have gone 4000 rounds w/o cleaning, and it was Wolf ammo too. Notoriously dirty. I did have to start spraying a shot of CLP in there after about 3000 rounds.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 12:41:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kylaer_:
I've been looking for a 5.56mm rifle as a range piece that could also double duty in an SHTF situation. I don't really want an AR; what I've read about break-in periods and the need for cleaning kind of turns me away from them.




Pretty much any mechanical device has a "break in" period. All firearms need cleaning and maintenance for best performance. Don't base your firearm choice on 40 year old problems with defective ammo and incorrect choice of materials from the Vietman introduction of the M16 system. Things have advanced since then.


I do clean my firearms on a regular basis, generally after every range trip, but I'd rather not have to in order to be confident that it will go bang when I pull the trigger.


AR will work fine.

As far as forseeable new 5.56 rifles, the Sig 556 series and the FN SCAR both look very promising.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 1:29:20 PM EDT
I "broke in" one barrel, after that I said "F&*k it" and just started shooting the things right out of the box. They all still shoot fine.
If you've just gotta have a 20" barrel by all means get one! None of the 12+ AR's that I've owned needed "Breaking In" they just ran. I'll also give the Vector V93 a big thumbs up, mine has run 100% out of the box.
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 1:55:54 PM EDT
Vector V93
Link Posted: 3/26/2006 2:09:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NoAim:
And there's an AR. Don't believe everything you read.



+1k
There is no such thing as a "barrel" break in period with a chrome lined bbl.
Just dump 200 rounds down the bbl the first time out, and thats good.
The AR15 platform is used by the military and law enforcement for a reason.
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