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Posted: 3/4/2006 5:52:23 PM EDT
Anyone played around with the idea of converting a M1 carbine to this neat little round? Was doing some comparison at the shop the other day with a used Universal and it struck me as a neat idea! Maybe a good niche market for someone handy in the machine shop for those can't afford a P90? Lets hear what you all have to say!
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 5:56:49 PM EDT
I don't think it will sell but, it is a neat idea...
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 6:13:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/4/2006 6:14:15 PM EDT by advntrjnky]
Iver Johnson already did it in 1963. th cartridge dimensions/ performance are very close to the 5.7x28.

here's an article about it:
5.7 Johnson/.22 Sptifire

shouldn't be a problem for any compenent gunsmith to do. i'm not sure exaclty how close the dimensions are, but Numrich has the spitfire barrels for sale. you may be able to adapt one of them.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 6:45:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/4/2006 6:47:55 PM EDT by xm193cure]
Ditto on the 5.7 Johnson round. With a little more powder capacity than the FN round and loaded to higher pressure, it's a higher performance cartridge (2800-2900 for a 40-45 gr bullet from 18" M-1 vs. 2700 for 31gr from the 16" PS90).

The 5.7FN has the advantage of being a factory loaded round (at least theoretically -- haven't seen much of it in stores yet). It could run hotter in the M-1 than in the PS90 as the Belgian's blowback action probably isn't up to what the gas operated M-1 can take.

ETA: ... but I think your idea makes market sense - somebody will probably do it.
Link Posted: 3/4/2006 9:39:10 PM EDT
Numrich gun parts in W. Hurley NY was selling conversions(5.7 Johnson) and ammo a few years back. Don't know about now.
Link Posted: 3/5/2006 1:22:19 AM EDT
Rhineland Arms is working on a 5.7x28mm AR15 upper that uses P90 magazines. Projected cost is half that of an FN PS90.


Link Posted: 3/5/2006 10:44:51 AM EDT
I saw an Inland converted to 5.7 yesterday at my gun show the guy was asking $450 for it
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 6:59:06 AM EDT
Having a 5.7 Johnson caliber carbine is a roll your own propasition most of the time, thankfully they do sell dies to neck down .30 carbine brass to make the cases.

the Rhineland "AR57" upper will run about $550.00 and takes P90 magazines....certainly makes a lot of sense if you allready have a AR15 and want to try 5.7x28.

trying to feed 5.7 FN into a M1 carbine would be a problem as it is much smaller in diameter ,and would almost require you to produce a trigger housing that would fit five seven pistol mags.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 11:08:41 AM EDT
Id much rather have an M1 carbine in .357mag.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 11:43:17 AM EDT
Why? Ammo is hideously expensive--more expensive than .30 carbine.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 1:22:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/6/2006 1:22:37 PM EDT by Phil1712]

Originally Posted By Galland:
Rhineland Arms is working on a 5.7x28mm AR15 upper that uses P90 magazines. Projected cost is half that of an FN PS90.

www.rhinelandarms.com/57/pics/ar57prototype2.jpg



That really doesn't look terrible...but reloading and ruining your sight picture might be a hassel...
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 7:51:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Galland:
Rhineland Arms is working on a 5.7x28mm AR15 upper that uses P90 magazines. Projected cost is half that of an FN PS90.

www.rhinelandarms.com/57/pics/ar57prototype2.jpg



If you put the single shot "California Legal" lower on that Rhinelandarms rifle, It would look cool.
I don't have the picture of it, but the mag well is slanted from front to back-with no place to put any mags.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 6:03:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/7/2006 6:04:58 AM EDT by WaMag]

Originally Posted By outofammo:

Originally Posted By Galland:
Rhineland Arms is working on a 5.7x28mm AR15 upper that uses P90 magazines. Projected cost is half that of an FN PS90.

www.rhinelandarms.com/57/pics/ar57prototype2.jpg



If you put the single shot "California Legal" lower on that Rhinelandarms rifle, It would look cool.
I don't have the picture of it, but the mag well is slanted from front to back-with no place to put any mags.



If you did that it wouldn't work at all. The ejection port is the empty magwell. The fired brass has got to go somewhere.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 9:22:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:
Id much rather have an M1 carbine in .357mag.



Why? .30 Carbine is a more powerful round (with good JHPs) with better penetration.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 12:07:44 PM EDT

Numrich gun parts in W. Hurley NY was selling conversions(5.7 Johnson) and ammo a few years back. Don't know about now.


I haven't seen conversion kits offered in their latest catalog but the barrels are still available.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 12:29:17 PM EDT
The 5.7x28 shines only because of the FN P90. Anyone who is familiar with this caliber knows its attributes, especially when compared with traditional SMG's and the 9mm or .40 caliber rounds which they fire. It approximates rifle caliber penetration in a SMG, but it can't compare to 5.56x45. Its strength is that the weapon that fires it is much smaller/more compact than traditional carbines. Besides the 16inch PS90, as its bullpup configuration still make it extremely compact, there is nothing this caliber has to offer in traditional carbine like the M1 or AR15. I guess if you have a P90/ FN5.7 it would be nice to be able to have ammo commanlitly, but from a practical/lethality stand point its ridiculous. That being said, FN 5.7 is as close as your are going to get to a M1 chambered in Johnson Spitfire....take a handful of the Johnson and FN rounds and mix em up and try to sort them out....very similar. Besides the PS90, a carbine which is the same size as an AR15 chambered for FN 5.7 as opposed to 5.56 is ridiculous.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 12:30:14 PM EDT
I'll just go on record as saying this:
Convert a USGI Carbine to 5.7 and I will hunt you down and beat you senseless.

Iver Johnsons, Universals, IAI/IMI are all fair game.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 5:38:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
I'll just go on record as saying this:
Convert a USGI Carbine to 5.7 and I will hunt you down and beat you senseless.

Iver Johnsons, Universals, IAI/IMI are all fair game.



Then you're going to have to get a CMP Garand to do the conversion.

wganz

Link Posted: 3/18/2006 6:00:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
I'll just go on record as saying this:
Convert a USGI Carbine to 5.7 and I will hunt you down and beat you senseless.

Iver Johnsons, Universals, IAI/IMI are all fair game.



+1

You cover the east and I'll cover the west.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 10:43:04 AM EDT
I'm getting 2700 fps from a 16" bbl. M1 carbine with 40gr PSP 5.7 Johnson Spitfire ammo from C-Square Munitions Corp. @ 4425 FM 2351 Ct, Suite D, Friendswood, TX, 77546, (281)-482-9837. I only get about 2300 fps from a full-length PS90 with 27.3gr 5.7 FN SS195LF ammo. Guess which one goes pow and which goes pop?

The scoped Johnson prints about 5" at 200 yds, benched. I can't even find a mark on a 12x20" steel silhouette at that range with the FN. Don't know if they're falling out, drifting away or bouncing off!

Anyway, seems like converting an M1 Carbine to 5.7x28mm FN would be a step down in performance from 5.7x33mm Johnson or 30 Carbine. But if you do rebarrel, hang onto your original parts so none of the board members beat you senseless.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 1:02:29 PM EDT
You are probably hitting it with the 5.7 round at that distance. I had no problems hitting a target printed on a 8X10 paper at 100 yards. I fired a total of 8 rounds at that distance. 6 of them hit the paper, the 7th next to it, and 6 in the kill zone on the person target. All would have been good hits on an actual live size person target at that distance. Now the 8th shot I purposly threw a little to hit the metal part that holds the board up. I could quite visibly see the round bounce and slam into the ground in front of it and splash dirt up. There was also a quite loud SMACK.

I tried the same thing with some pistol rated steel in my backyard with a similar result. The sudden smack would toss the whole swinger back and hit the ground in front off it causing all sorts of dirt. The difference was that the pistol rated steel also showed slight sculding. As for the lighter ss195 I have been told that this process causes fireworks in and indoor range. Apparently the round instead of violently bouncing like the ballistic tipped stuff, it just simply shatters. This seems like it would be quite effective on things other than targets you would shoot.

The whole not moving the gong thing seems to work on the same principle of why my MP5 hits plates harder than my 223 ar15. It looks like the lighter bullets just simply dump their energy faster than the slower moving heavier ones. Now try shooting something that will absorb the actual bullet and you will see the energy transfer is much more noticable. I did this with a stacl phone books and a large jug of water.



That being said... I would love to see what the 5.7 johnson does to that kind of stuff.
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