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Posted: 1/28/2006 12:06:00 PM EDT
Glock has shown the polygonal barrel to have less friction, a better gas seal, and be very long wearing to boot. So, why aren't we seeing AR15's and M1A's offered with the same technology? Does polygonal rifling not work at higher twist rates? Patent issue?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Link Posted: 1/28/2006 12:23:11 PM EDT
HK91s used it. its not the tried and true American way I guess
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 12:31:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
HK91s used it. its not the tried and true American way I guess



Once again TRH is right.

HK used it a number of their weapons. P9S, P7, HK91(some) HK SR9,MSG90 PSG-1. Also on their hunting rifles.

Polygonal barrels are great. I like to see one on a M1A or AR10.

Maybe it cost more than conventional and the buying public doesn't know much about polygonal barrels.

Who knows.

Chris
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 2:00:39 PM EDT
Noveske does.

And my Poly AR barrel shoots great. It should shoot sub MOA for 15k+ rds.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 2:36:49 PM EDT
Well holy cow, learn something new every day.

Here I thought HK was just the BMW of guns (overpriced, overhyped, and snobby). Shame on me. (Yes, I know they have good stuff, both of 'em, but you know...).

Looking up Noveske right now, and going to Google for any velocity comparisons.

Thanks!
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 2:38:12 PM EDT
like the guy above me said... Noveske
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:18:49 PM EDT
Desert Eagle
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 11:06:23 PM EDT
The best part of poly barrels....they are SO easy to clean.
Link Posted: 1/28/2006 11:36:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/28/2006 11:39:35 PM EDT by danonly]
schneider makes "poly" barrels

I've also read pac-nor and walther do as well, but have no personal experience.

Link Posted: 1/29/2006 5:32:21 AM EDT
IF they better than conventional rifling they would have overwhelmed the match shooters years ago! These folks spare no money on anything that will give them an edge…

I do not claim to know the reasons, but the fact that no match competitor uses one, speaks volumes toward any "claims" of superiority…
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 6:09:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 7:04:47 AM EDT
Polygonal rifling: like the Whitworth some 140 years ago?
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 9:37:36 AM EDT
No they are stainless steel.

Its hard to believe, but its true. One of his demo setups is a 10.5 inch barreled CQB upper. And last I heard it had well over 15k thru it and it was still shooting under MOA.

It has to do with the way Poly barrels engage the bullet as it enters the rifling. I am not sure how this works, but the result is that they have almost no throat erosion from being fired.

As for why they aren't the top barrels in competetion. . . .

If you were a barrelmaker, would you want to sell 1 $450 barrel that would last 15k+ rds, or 3 $300 barrels that are good for 5k rds?
Its purely a guess, but I bet the reason why is mostly because they aren't as profitable. . .
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 9:41:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 3:32:30 PM EDT
I read somewhere that the rifling does not matter all that much, at least at the shooter level, and unless you're really, really, really good. The main reason for using polygonal barrels is cost. It is real expensive to set up the machinary, but once you set up the machinary you just pound them out like donuts and it's cheap. To the average shooter whether you have lands & grooves or polygonal rifling makes little difference.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 6:13:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 1:30:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2006 1:35:38 AM EDT by DevL]
Guys, Noveske (PacNor) does NOT have polygonal rifling like HK or Glock. Totally differnt animal. PacNor uses a 6 land and groove design but the lands/grooves are polygonal shaped. Totally different barrel design, not similar at all. As far as I know you can only do polygonal (HK Glock type) barrels via hammer forging.

Polygonal Noveskes are hard to clean if you like to clean in the traditional manner as they must be "mopped" since the lands and grooves dont catch patches and turn with the rifling.

It could be easily said the polygonal Noveskes have the edges of the rifling preworn off and thus will wear out sooner. The statement of them lasting longer is one of sales and marketing. I have seen no proof they will last longer than conventionally rifled barrels. Just claims by the people who make/sell them... this has no credibility at all in my eyes. They are selling them.

I thought America understood that not all marketing claims you hear from a seller are actually true. Sadly it seems this is not the case.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 6:51:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NoAim:
The best part of poly barrels....they are SO easy to clean.



Yes, that's the part I like the best!!
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 8:42:50 AM EDT
I think you will find that hammer forged barrels are just easier to clean period. Whether they are forged with lands/grooves or polygonal. The maker can really polish up the forging mandrel so there are virtually no machine marks on it. This results in a barrel that has no rough machine marks in the bore. My Tikka T3 has a hammer forged barrel and the inside is mirror bright. It hardly builds up any fouling at all as there are no internal machine marks to grab bits of copper or carbon.

Hammer forged barrels used to have a reputation for inaccuracy, but manufacturers have really gotten good at it and they are very accurate today.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 9:36:15 AM EDT
i would think that the higher pressure of a long arm combined with the possible use of lead bullets would not be a good thing for poly barrels.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 3:12:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
It could be easily said the polygonal Noveskes have the edges of the rifling preworn off and thus will wear out sooner. The statement of them lasting longer is one of sales and marketing. I have seen no proof they will last longer than conventionally rifled barrels. Just claims by the people who make/sell them... this has no credibility at all in my eyes. They are selling them.


Are you serious? The Noveske turned Pac Nor's are not shaven down standard rifled barrels, and they do not have "preworn" tolerances.


As for Noveske barrels, people seem to either love them or hate them. This holds especially true to dealers who either love them (the ones that sell them), or hate them (the ones who don't).

Oddly enough, I have yet to hear any actual owners complain about the Noveske barrels. So until I have personal experience with one myself, I'll take the opinions of the people who have actually used one. Based on other people's claims, these barrels do appear to stay pretty accurate for quite some time (especially for a stainless barrel). These claims coming from people who actually own one of course.

Don't take my word for it though. I'd suggest not listening to anyone who has no personal experience with them in fact.

Link Posted: 1/31/2006 3:15:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 50cal:
Are the Noveske barrels chrome lined Krazny13? 15k rds is a hell of a lot of rounds to keep sub-MOA and not be lined.



I've seen the 10.5s print sub minute groups after 12K rounds. Never had one though. Not yet.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 2:59:16 PM EDT
There are a number of advantages and disadvantages to poly rifling. From a production standpoint it requires large industrial presses and all manner of tool and die parts. Only the largest manufacturers can invest in this type of equipment so hence no small guys making true poly rifled barels. Because the twist rate is imprinted in the barrel at the time of manufacture, it makes it very very expensive to set up small custom runs. Small production is what competitive shoting is all about. Guys like Kreiger, Douglas, Pac Nor, etc., just don't sell enough barrels to make this kind of production pay. As far as accuracy is concerned, poly rifling isn't any more or less accurate than any other type. What is difficult to control is the extra fine manufacturing tolerances that target shooters demand from a barrel. H&K does build sniper rifles using poly rifling, but has to test the individual barrels to make sure they meet the accuracy standards they are guaranteed for. The Douglas barrel on my target rifle was guaranteed out of the box without any test firing because it is a cut rifled air gauged barrel, and Douglas can control every stage of the manufacture to produce a finish product that dosen't need testing to shoot well.

The reason poly rifling is easier to clean does have to do with how the rifling engages the bullet. In a land and grove barrel, the bullet jacket gets cut into by the rifling. Even the cleanest fired bullet shows damage from this type of rifling. It's what makes it so easy to balistically match fired rounds to the barrels they came from. True poly rifling engages the bullet by presing into the jacket. There is much less stress on the projectile and as such much less friction, so less jacket fouling in the barrel. True poly rifling makes it very very hard to trace a bullet. Glock had to modify their rifling for Police departments to make it easier to match chooting to weapons.

You can't shoot lead bullets of any kind through poly rifling. You get a buildup of lead right in front of the chamber that can't be prevented. You will get a KB before you know it, even if you're careful. H&K specifically warns against the use of lead bullets in their poly rifled guns.

A word about target shooting. You load for the barrel, not the other way around. I know shooters that buy their barrels in batches from the same lot of steel because once they find a load that shoots, and can use the same load for all the barrels they have. My .223 Douglas should last a minimum of 5k rounds, but some shooters have very hot target loads that wear out barrels from an accuracy standpoint in as little as 1,200 rounds.

Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:14:45 PM EDT
I like my USP barrel. I find it easier to clean than a normal pistol barrel.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:41:37 PM EDT
Poly barrels do not last under rapid firing/high heating that can be found in M16s and AR15s. So it's probably not ideal.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 10:42:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 10:45:55 PM EDT by DevL]

Originally Posted By olds442tyguy:

Originally Posted By DevL:
It could be easily said the polygonal Noveskes have the edges of the rifling preworn off and thus will wear out sooner. The statement of them lasting longer is one of sales and marketing. I have seen no proof they will last longer than conventionally rifled barrels. Just claims by the people who make/sell them... this has no credibility at all in my eyes. They are selling them.


Are you serious? The Noveske turned Pac Nor's are not shaven down standard rifled barrels, and they do not have "preworn" tolerances.


As for Noveske barrels, people seem to either love them or hate them. This holds especially true to dealers who either love them (the ones that sell them), or hate them (the ones who don't).

Oddly enough, I have yet to hear any actual owners complain about the Noveske barrels. So until I have personal experience with one myself, I'll take the opinions of the people who have actually used one. Based on other people's claims, these barrels do appear to stay pretty accurate for quite some time (especially for a stainless barrel). These claims coming from people who actually own one of course.

Don't take my word for it though. I'd suggest not listening to anyone who has no personal experience with them in fact.




I do not know what you mean about shaven down standard barrels. They are made from blanks like 30 or 40 inches long. The rifling is sot squareish its facted. When you wear out squared off rifling you loose accuracy. The PacNor rifling does not have a 90 degree angle on the edge but a 45 degree angle then another 45 degree angle. Do you not see how this could be similar to a square rifling that is worn off? I also purchased a PacNor polygonal 1/7 blank as the foundation of my ABS custom 11.5" Commando barrel for a special project. I am just making an observation. Time and testing will prove if the barrel has higher velocity or lasts a long time. I make no claims in either direction and netiher should anyone who has not personally tested them.

My only intention was to get it straight that PacNor/Noveske barrels are NOT like USP or Glock barrels. They are a land and groove profiled barrel. What is true for one is NOT true for the other. I have some concerns the barrel will not do what the hype says it will. Most people will not admit it if they spend the money on a barrel for extra velocity and its not there. I intend to just report the actual results I find and clue people in on what they may not know.

BTW, do you own a PacNor polygonally rifled barrel?
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 12:19:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
Poly barrels do not last under rapid firing/high heating that can be found in M16s and AR15s. So it's probably not ideal.



Newer HK-made QCBs for the MG3 is polygonal... And they shoot very well...
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 1:35:51 AM EDT
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