As for birdshot working at close range it isnt effective enough for me.

A friend saw a video of someone accidently shot by an overly excited hunting buddy, the guy saw the bird fly infront his face and his buddy was aiming right at the bird (without noticing his friend) so he lifted both arms up infront his head, the birdshot didnt even go through his arms, saved his life, nothing got passed his two arms.

I'd imagine it'd work VS a normal guy, but a crack head or someone on a drug might not be stopped by birdshot.



Spend $10 get buckshot, $10 isnt too much to protect yourself and loved ones with.

While Hunting Small Game...
I have seen many a Squirrells Wounded by #6 or #4 Shot from a 3&3/4 dram and 1.25 ounce shot shell in a 12 gauge...
Same Effect with 20 Gauge...
They havea THick Hide sometimes and it is hard to penetrate that and muscle.
Needless to say the number of pellets and sheer shock usually kill them....

I don't think I can trust That kind of shot (or less as in #8 birdshot) in a 12 gauge or 20 gauge during a firefight with and intruder.
But sure as hell to an atheistic murderer, I don't want to be hit by it either.

My vote would be for an M1 carbine with HOllow points Or some type of Carbine .45acp with +p ammo
M4 for body armor or A short barrelled .308 with ballistic tips for home defense
AK wouldn't by a horiible choice either with fragmenting rounds.
As far as a 12 gauge I would go with slugs... Most will be accurate enough inside the home to hit the intruder and do the necessary penetration without over penetrating (as it has been my exeperience that they only penetrate a few inches into trees and packed-magazines before completely expanding flat, do a number on a 125lb deer too, didn't penetrate through) but relod time is an issue

now having said all that... I am going to grab the first and easiest Weapon I can come to. ANy weapon is better than no weapon. May be AR or MIni-14 Or a handgun. All of Which are always loaded and easy to get to in the safe. And if there are still bad guys to take down, 50 rounds from a 10/22 ought to make their day. Then comes the .270 as they are running to their car! (how they could even move a muscle to run to their car by this point is beyond me)

Quoted: While Hunting Small Game... I have seen many a Squirrells Wounded by #6 or #4 Shot from a 3&3/4 dram and 1.25 ounce shot shell in a 12 gauge... Same Effect with 20 Gauge... They havea THick Hide sometimes and it is hard to penetrate that and muscle. Needless to say the number of pellets and sheer shock usually kill them.... I don't think I can trust That kind of shot (or less as in #8 birdshot) in a 12 gauge or 20 gauge during a firefight with and intruder. But sure as hell to an atheistic murderer, I don't want to be hit by it either. My vote would be for an M1 carbine with HOllow points Or some type of Carbine .45acp with +p ammo M4 for body armor or A short barrelled .308 with ballistic tips for home defense AK wouldn't by a horiible choice either with fragmenting rounds. As far as a 12 gauge I would go with slugs... Most will be accurate enough inside the home to hit the intruder and do the necessary penetration without over penetrating (as it has been my exeperience that they only penetrate a few inches into trees and packed-magazines before completely expanding flat, do a number on a 125lb deer too, didn't penetrate through) but relod time is an issue now having said all that... I am going to grab the first and easiest Weapon I can come to. ANy weapon is better than no weapon. May be AR or MIni-14 Or a handgun. All of Which are always loaded and easy to get to in the safe. And if there are still bad guys to take down, 50 rounds from a 10/22 ought to make their day. Then comes the .270 as they are running to their car! (how they could even move a muscle to run to their car by this point is beyond me)

Yep a M1 carbin with 115 grain JHP will give you .357 Mag Vel and Energy(still a little short of say the 30/30) but a shot gun Even with slugs  is still suspect!!

Bob

Quoted: It has nothing to do with the pattern of the shot. Birdshot does not have the mass to penetrate deep enough to cause a fight stopping wound. I once saw a guy shoot a 60 lb pit bull that was attacking his lab 5 times at point blank range with 2 3/4" #6 shot. The dog was seemingly unfazed and he had to beat it to death with the empty shotgun. I would hate to try the same load on a 220 lb felon on a three day meth binge.

Come on, please tell me I'm not the only person going to call BS on that one? There is no way in hell you are going to get me to believe a 60# dog (or even a 220# human on meth) is going to get hit 5 times at point blank range with any 12ga load of #6 birdshot and remain unfazed. Sorry, not buying that one.

Here's some of my random thoughts and personal opinions on this subject...

I think it is foolish to pick your HD weapon based off of what our boys overseas are using or what some LEO agency is using. I’m not saying there is nothing we can learn from the military or LEO community because there is. I just think you need to keep in mind that there are major differences between the roles, needs, and restrictions they face compared to the average homeowner wanting to defend their home against an intruder.

There is no magic round or platform. They all have shortcomings and can all fail to achieve that mystical one hit stop. Shot placement is, and always will be, the most important thing in determining the outcome of any gun fight. Even then there are variables and no round from any platform can guarantee a one shot instant kill from even a COM shot.

Reading some of the responses from people telling you a SG is a bad choice, I get the impression they have little or no experience shooting SGs? Are follow up shots with a properly mounted SG slower then with a semi auto carbine? Sure but the difference in time is so small that I find it unlikely to be consequential. Capacity? Sure 7+1 is lower then the typical magazine fed rifle but should still be more then enough for 99% of typical HD scenarios.

I’m not going to tell you a SG is the perfect choice in all situations but it surely is a valid choice in most. With a bead sight at typical HD distances (>20ft) I believe a SG is the quickest and easiest weapon to get on target and fire accurately while under stress. IMO, SG’s are also the more forgiving of a poorly placed shots (i.e. non-com hits). The biggest down side to SG’s in my opinion is load development. It seems most Ammo makers think that 00 buck is the only way to go with SG's even though most research seem to point to either #1 or #4 buck as better all around choices.

Wall penatration is a real issue, especially for those of use with loved ones\children in the house. I for one would rather risk having to shoot a BG 2 or 3 times if need be if it also means I can drastically lower the chance of hurting\killing someone I love with a poorly placed shot.

Either way, all I’m trying to say is, different people have different needs, issues and skills. That’s why we have so many options. A person can effective protect themselves using either a pistol, rifle or SG. Know yourself, your abilities and your home and then come up with a game plan. Then choose your weapons and ammunition accordingly.

Quoted: Quoted: Saiga 12 modified for bolthold open from saiga12.com Some of z1500's 10 rd magazines that will be out soon. Low recoil buckshot. Would take care of all of your requests except one: metal hulled ammo. Why metal hulled ammo? Because leaving the plastic hulled shells against the closed bolt causes them to compress/deform over time, possibly leading to misfeeds, etc.

Doesn't the bolt hold open solve that problem?

Quoted: Just FYI to confirm a few things. My Saiga-12 with buckshot recoils about the same as a .308 semi-auto. The same Saiga-12 with a 12.5" barrel will pattern about 15-18 inches at 15 yards. Agrees with the 1" spread/yard. With slugs at 15 yards, I can get all holes (agreed, rather large) touching. The max mag capacity is still 8+1. For home defense, they are exceptionally powerful close range (up to 50 yards) weapons. I agree with the previous poster about the military trusting their rifle.

Was that SBR or AOW????  $5 or $200 + labor to modify??

Quoted: My thought is that in Iraq, they are generally using lockbuster slugs (I have no clue what the propper name is for it), rather than buckshot.   I think that for extremely close quarters, a shotgun cannot be beat.  Point.  Shoot.  Drop.

Frangible.  And they will piss off someone wearing body armor.