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Posted: 1/17/2006 5:31:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 5:37:09 PM EDT
Why is it all the gun mfgrs are in anti-gun states? Conn, Mass, IL, NY, etc. etc.!!!!!

WTF!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 5:44:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BobCole:
Why is it all the gun mfgrs are in anti-gun states? Conn, Mass, IL, NY, etc. etc.!!!!!

WTF!!!!!!!!





I know what your saying brother!!!
Move that bitch to Indiana, a pro-gun state full of gun lovers. We'll make'em!!!
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 6:31:46 PM EDT
Winchester's been dead for years, just a licensed out name to be traded back and forth among bigger companies.If they closed, I wonder how long til we started seeing Browning or FN brand Model 94's?
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 10:36:36 PM EDT
Dam, that sucks! I just bought a new 94 Trapper in .44 mag. Sweet gun and the quality seems to be tops. I wonder why they are not selling well?
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 11:13:26 PM EDT
Lever actions: The Cowboy Action shooters can get 1873 copies elsewhere, but not from Winchester. And for the other lever action users Marlin is more heavy duty than the Winchester 94 - plus they offer some nice Cowboy guns. The guts come out of a 94 when you lever it open - not so in a Marlin or 1873 copy.

Shotguns: Remington 870, or Berreta or Benelli, or Browning or...

Bolt actions: The majority praise online seems to go to the Remington 700 and at a lower price to Savage. Those who can afford the higher cost, go with custom or semi-custom. For the last few years Winchester was too focused on the short magnums, not even offering the .270 Winchester chambering (it's offered on the site now). Basically, if you didn't want a WSM or WSSM then Winchester wasn't willing to sell you a rifle. That's not exactly true, but they offered very little choice outside of their proprietary cartridge. Remington, Ruger, Savage, all offered the standard chamberings.

My prediction is that FN will market selected model 70s. They're already using the model 70 action in the PBR and the SPR. Shotguns? Not so sure. Lever Actions? Maybe Browning?

Having said that - I am planning (was planning?) on getting a Classic Sporter in .30-06 (at least) and (for my girlfriend) a Sporter Classic Compact in .243. In shotguns, my GF is currently interested in the Ranger Gloss Compact 1300 in 12 gauge. Remington doesn't offer a Wingmaster with short LOP in 12 gauge.

GL
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 11:19:31 PM EDT
The Rifle that Won the West
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 3:45:17 AM EDT
is this going to effect their ammo avaliability? q3131?
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 5:11:27 AM EDT
Would Henry lever action rifles make for a better purchase over Winchester?
A couple guys I've talked to really seem to think so. My concern at this point would be buying a Winchester rifle that may end up having zero warranty against failure.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 5:23:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1179:
is this going to effect their ammo avaliability? q3131?


No Olin is Winchester ammo
US Repeating Arms is Winchester firearms
They are two separate companies.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 5:26:29 AM EDT
great thanks
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 5:57:30 AM EDT
You can thank the Union(s) for this.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 9:53:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gks452:

Originally Posted By 1179:
is this going to effect their ammo avaliability? q3131?


No Olin is Winchester ammo
US Repeating Arms is Winchester firearms
They are two separate companies.



I don't know about that. I just bought a new Winchester 94 Trapper and it had Olin all over the box and paper work and if remember right Olin stamped on the barrel.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 10:07:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GunLogic:
For the last few years Winchester was too focused on the short magnums, not even offering the .270 Winchester chambering (it's offered on the site now). Basically, if you didn't want a WSM or WSSM then Winchester wasn't willing to sell you a rifle. That's not exactly true, but they offered very little choice outside of their proprietary cartridge. Remington, Ruger, Savage, all offered the standard chamberings.


Baloney. I have the Winchester catalogs for the past few years, and they continued to sell all of the standard big game calibers (270, 7mm Mag, 30-06, 300 Win Mag, etc.). The major lines (Sporter, Stainless, Featherweight) were all carried in the 'old' calibers. There were some new lines that were offered only in short or super short actions, so of course you would not see a 270 in a short action length rifle.

The WSM chamberings are not proprietary. They are chambered by all of the manufacturers you mention: Remington, Savage and Ruger. Kimber chambers them as well. The WSM is really Olin's baby, not Browning/USRAC/FN's.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 10:12:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SkagSig40:
Dam, that sucks! I just bought a new 94 Trapper in .44 mag. Sweet gun and the quality seems to be tops. I wonder why they are not selling well?



Because Marlin Lever guns are better in every respect. IMO of course.....

S.O.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 10:15:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SkagSig40:

Originally Posted By gks452:

Originally Posted By 1179:
is this going to effect their ammo avaliability? q3131?


No Olin is Winchester ammo
US Repeating Arms is Winchester firearms
They are two separate companies.



I don't know about that. I just bought a new Winchester 94 Trapper and it had Olin all over the box and paper work and if remember right Olin stamped on the barrel.


From the article:

DeMennato said the company is negotiating the plant's sale. Missouri-based Olin Corp. owns the Winchester brand name. In the late 1970s, after a massive strike by its machinists, Olin sold the plant to U.S. Repeating Arms along with the right to use the Winchester name until next year.

Olin had no immediate word on its plans for the Winchester name. DeMennato said he hopes the name will be sold along with the plant. Nobody at Herstal's headquarters in Belgium could be reached Tuesday afternoon.


This whole thing probably has a lot to do with the fact that USRAC would not be entitled to use the Winchester name after next year. I think the "Model 70" and other Olin trademarks go back at the same time. Someone will probably make a deal with Olin and start producing Winchesters again. The brand still has appeal, even if it is not what it was pre-64. The firearms might be produced somewhere else (given the labor situation), and maybe not domestically. Hopefully, the new owners will have a better marketing strategy than Herstal did.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 11:20:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By imposter:

Originally Posted By GunLogic:
For the last few years Winchester was too focused on the short magnums, not even offering the .270 Winchester chambering (it's offered on the site now). Basically, if you didn't want a WSM or WSSM then Winchester wasn't willing to sell you a rifle. That's not exactly true, but they offered very little choice outside of their proprietary cartridge. Remington, Ruger, Savage, all offered the standard chamberings.


Baloney. I have the Winchester catalogs for the past few years, and they continued to sell all of the standard big game calibers (270, 7mm Mag, 30-06, 300 Win Mag, etc.). The major lines (Sporter, Stainless, Featherweight) were all carried in the 'old' calibers. There were some new lines that were offered only in short or super short actions, so of course you would not see a 270 in a short action length rifle.

The WSM chamberings are not proprietary. They are chambered by all of the manufacturers you mention: Remington, Savage and Ruger. Kimber chambers them as well. The WSM is really Olin's baby, not Browning/USRAC/FN's.



I'll see if I can find my old catalogs and check my statement. My guess is that I was looking Sporters, since I hate the Featherweight stock. And I was interested at the time in the .270 Win. My using the term "proprietary" was misapplied, perhaps. My point was that they were focused on the new "Winchester" cartridges and had fewer rifle offerings in the standard chamberings. A comparison of Remington and Winchester was always disappointing as far as choices. Remington offered more choices. Winchester tried to get you to switch to their new magnums by offering fewer choices outside of them.

No matter. I still want a Sporter Classic in .30-06 and a Classic Compact in .243

GL


Link Posted: 1/18/2006 4:48:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By osprey21:
You can thank the Union(s) for this.




Maybe, maybe not. Being in a anti-gun state sure as hell doesn't do any of them any favors, IMO.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 5:27:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By osprey21:
You can thank the Union(s) for this.


+100
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 5:42:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/18/2006 5:44:40 PM EDT by Phil1712]

Originally Posted By BobCole:

Originally Posted By osprey21:
You can thank the Union(s) for this.




Maybe, maybe not. Being in a anti-gun state sure as hell doesn't do any of them any favors, IMO.



Your right, it doesn't help, but how would being in a pro gun state help anyway? None of their guns are banned here? JLD and Stag Arms seem to be doing fine here in CT, as well as Marling, Mossberg etc etc... If people aren't buying the product, then how is the company going to stay alive? Winchester already outsource to Japan, thats where the 1895s are made. Instead of blaming teh state they are in, look at what winchester has been doing for these last years or so. They made the rifle that won the West, but what have they done since the late sixties that truely remarkable and innovative?

FN will probably continue to manufacture 1300 and model 70 variants, and hopefully someone will buy them out. 200 jobs or not, we cannot let these people lose their jobs, It will hurt everyone in the long run, it will hurt those people and all of us becuase we won;t have any first party manufactured winchesters anymore. I feel horrible that the factory is closing, but my hope is someone buys big into the company to keep them on their feet.
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 5:50:19 PM EDT
As you get older, you hate to see old comfort zones fall by the way side.


GM
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:00:52 PM EDT
Here it is from CNN

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/17/winchester.ap/index.html

www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/17/winchester.ap/index.html
Link Posted: 1/18/2006 8:29:07 PM EDT


I am saddened by this development.

Link Posted: 1/18/2006 10:41:26 PM EDT
From the CNN link: "Sauvage said Herstal is proud to have manufactured Winchester rifles for so long. He said he thinks customers will continue buying the new line of weapons, which can be produced quickly and for less money, because Belgium, like America, has a reputation for quality manufacturing."

What do you think? A Model 70 Controlled Round Feed made in Belgium?

GL
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 9:30:43 PM EDT
I think a massive corporation just eliminated competition from itself.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 9:48:55 PM EDT
the old gun makers are in anti states because when they were founded those states were the center of industry.
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 10:51:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DvlDog:
the old gun makers are in anti states because when they were founded those states were the center of industry.


Most of the old line and many new line companies have a presence in Conn-area which is loosly known as "gun valley."
Link Posted: 1/19/2006 11:31:59 PM EDT
Sad, Just Sad.

Maybe some entity will the buy out what remains of the name,property and equipment?
I just can't see an old horse dying like this.


.................Maybe Jump in the AR/1911 Market?
I know I'd like one of each.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:01:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By warlord:

Originally Posted By DvlDog:
the old gun makers are in anti states because when they were founded those states were the center of industry.


Most of the old line and many new line companies have a presence in Conn-area which is loosly known as "gun valley."


Would love to have my state become known as the Second Gun Valley, much like happened in Austin (RR, actually) with Dell, etc, and the "Second Silicon Valley" moniker (or whatever they called it).
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 6:10:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 6:10:42 AM EDT by imposter]
Even if they do restart production at some point, you just know this is going to create a demand for "pre-06" Winchesters.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 8:54:11 AM EDT
blaming unions for the work of lawyers is crazy and wrong.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 9:07:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 9:13:30 AM EDT by JYogi]
Please...
You can thank unions for all of those types of jobs leaving the US.
You have guys with a high school education making more than teachers do.
They can pay someones salary for a year overseas with what they spend in wages for a union employee here in the states and that does not even include all of the benifits like insurance and pension.

Now before you go jumping on me for bashing unions the other people who they need to put into check is all of these pro sports stars... They make more in a year than a teacher or even union worker will make in a lifetime.


Originally Posted By Zaitev:
blaming unions for the work of lawyers is crazy and wrong.

Link Posted: 1/20/2006 12:55:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JYogi:

Now before you go jumping on me for bashing unions the other people who they need to put into check is all of these pro sports stars... They make more in a year than a teacher or even union worker will make in a lifetime.





Yet no one is forced to watch sports nor buy tickets, no??????
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 5:49:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gonzo_beyondo:
Would Henry lever action rifles make for a better purchase over Winchester?



I handled a Henry .22 and a Winchester 9422 today. The Henry is smooth as butter, and the little click when the action opens and closes is just great. The 9422 feels as if the metal parts were never finished and screws were turned too tight. I put money down in the 9422 Tribute Edition anyway, figure in a few years I can sell it and get a matching pair of Henrys in .22 and .22 mag.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 9:09:52 PM EDT
This is almost as bad for me as a total ban of guns. I must say I have been a huge fan of Winchester and of the mod 70 and 94. It truly breaks my heart. I do think however, that Winchester has only itself to blame. It's obvious that they market to the hunter. Great!!! But there is a tremendous amount of competition in the hunting market. Instead of expanding to find other markets, Winchester stayed the course. Remington expanded into the police and military markets with their mod 700 and have made a name for themself. I actually prefer the mod 70 action over the mod 700. Don't get me wrong, I think the mod 700 is an outstanding rifle. I just prefer the mod 70. My point to this is that Winchester could have done more to help sales but chose not to.

One more thing I must say, the foreign company which owns Winchester can kiss my red blooded Texas ass. I don't think they give a rat's ass about American heritage or tradition, just the cash in our wallets. If you haven't guessed, I'm not a big fan of American companies being owned by foreigners.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 10:22:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bishopm14:
Winchester's been dead for years, just a licensed out name to be traded back and forth among bigger companies.If they closed, I wonder how long til we started seeing Browning or FN brand Model 94's?




Someone else will buy the name and the Winchester brand will live on. Hopefully the quality will not continue to decline.

Yes, I would buy a Browning model 94.
Link Posted: 1/20/2006 10:46:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2006 10:48:32 PM EDT by 762minigun2]
Old news fellers.....

Just remember what FN did to Winchester before you go buying all those new FN toys.

However all my Winchester stuff just went up in value.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 6:53:03 AM EDT
Glad I bought my pre 64 Model 70 a few mths ago before all of this came out.
I still think somehow they will end up working it out and staying in the US, someone else is going to get the rights to the name. Let's just hope whoever it is makes a quality product.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 8:32:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/21/2006 8:49:54 AM EDT by Rabon]
Six guys working in the shop can't carry a management team of 200. Winchester is another company thats been managed to death.
Link Posted: 1/22/2006 6:48:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By IronBalaclava:
Sad, Just Sad.

Maybe some entity will the buy out what remains of the name,property and equipment?
I just can't see an old horse dying like this.


.................Maybe Jump in the AR/1911 Market?
I know I'd like one of each.




Hmmmm.....

Winchester AR15 A2/M4........
That would be an interesting business adventure.

One thing for sure, it would give those who are addicted to "cool aid" one more name to bash.

Link Posted: 1/22/2006 3:11:58 PM EDT
One problem the guns makers have is that they make products that last more than a lifetime & can be passed down/resold for many years. How many people wear out a gun? Very few I would guess. If you make toasters or hair dryers you can sell more than 1 to a person in their lifetime.
Once they buy a model 94 you might not see them for a long time. With a little care a gun can last much longr than the original owner.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 6:21:15 AM EDT
A Lorcin is the firearm equivalent of a throw-away cell phone.

Link Posted: 1/23/2006 10:56:22 AM EDT
I just picked up a new "Classic" blued/synthetic featherweight in 30-06 for $420. I don't exactly need another Model 70 (IIRC that is my 3rd one in that cablier alone), but my (unborn) grandkids might!
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 11:21:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1jackal:

Winchester AR15 A2/M4........
That would be an interesting business adventure.




A case-colored receiver with octogon barrel M4! Do we get crescent buttstock, too?
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 12:51:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By imposter:
I just picked up a new "Classic" blued/synthetic featherweight in 30-06 for $420. I don't exactly need another Model 70 (IIRC that is my 3rd one in that cablier alone), but my (unborn) grandkids might!


I like the way you think!

('Be Prepared')
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 6:12:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Javak:

Originally Posted By 1jackal:

Winchester AR15 A2/M4........
That would be an interesting business adventure.




A case-colored receiver with octogon barrel M4! Do we get crescent buttstock, too?



Yes, a crescent buttstock with a brass cleaning kit wrapped in hogs hide!!!
Lets not forget the tactical buckhorn backup sight..........The "TBBS"
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 6:13:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2006 6:24:48 PM EDT by 1jackal]
oops
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 6:14:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/23/2006 6:21:55 PM EDT by 1jackal]
double tap.
Site is slow tonight, can't get pages to load right.
Link Posted: 1/23/2006 7:36:09 PM EDT
Obvious post whore.

Link Posted: 2/4/2006 8:05:51 PM EDT

Please...
You can thank unions for all of those types of jobs leaving the US.
You have guys with a high school education making more than teachers do.
They can pay someones salary for a year overseas with what they spend in wages for a union employee here in the states and that does not even include all of the benifits like insurance and pension.

JYogi


I have to disagree.

Unions do not force jobs over seas.
Pis poor management may have something to do with it. Either be incompetence or greed.
My CEO made about $5000.00 per hour this year.
Thats right, five thousand dollars per hour.

If he made $100.00 per hour that extra money would pay 350 workers at my plant.

What kind of life style do those people over seas have?
I doubt they are looking at new AR15's or optics to buy. Most likely rice or funny looking fish for the family to eat.

Pensions are disappearing fast.
Not only do you have to put YOUR money away in a 401k to save for retirement someday, you have to pay for social security for the older generations, wich we will never see if you are fairly young.

This has to take a big chunk of spending money out of the economy.
That money would be spent on products that may or may not be made in this country.

If we all made $5-10 per hour, who would be able to buy anything?????????
Car, house, utility payments, ex=wife, child support, groceries will suck up your pay check.
We will all be forced to shop at walmart because we cant afford to go anywhere else.
If we all shop at walmart, who makes the stuff we buy???
How many jobs will there be?

Oh ya, you can serve the CEO's and thier buds dinner or wash there dishes.

Big snowball effect.
Ands its rolling faster.

cjk
Win model 70 in the cabinet.

Link Posted: 2/4/2006 9:40:38 PM EDT
Well, what it really comes down to Winchester products did'nt turn the profit. They did'nt sell enough product at the right price to continue. Does'nt matter if it's an American icon or not. How many Winchesters did you buy last year? The last two years? The last 10? I've bought two, one new M70 in .270 Weatherby mag. and one used 94 in .375 Win. that's over the last 9 years.
Now in comparison, I've bought two Vector products in the last 10 months, and several other arms from different makers. Why not Winchesters? Well, that's an easy one too, they were'nt making anything I wanted! How many bolt guns does one need or use? They are all pretty much the same, Rem. Win. Savage, etc. they all look pretty much alike, operate alike, same chamberings. Shit the market is saturated in that stuff!
Hell, outside of C&R stuff, the last NIB factory bolt gun I bought was 9 years ago! I think that from the way the market looks, from my perspective anyway, is modern/military semi-autos, and semi auto pistols rule. Winchester did'nt offer either of those.
FWIW, Herstal still warranties Winchester products at the same service center that Browning's go to in Arnold, MO.
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