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Posted: 12/16/2005 2:31:59 PM EDT
I know a lot of people are talking of getting one of these or two in some cases and ammo seems to be a concern. So far fiochi is gearing up to make ammo for these in the states. I really like fiochi but I also like competition in the industry and cheap ammo. So there needs to be more than one maker of FN 5.7X28. This will happen eventually but everyone wants it now.

Winchester corporation used to make the stuff in the us (or one of their other factories around the world) apparently and offer sale in the states. From what I understand they dont anymore for one reason or another. The tooling should still exist and I thought it might be good to show them there is still an interest in ammo.

I created a petition to show them an interest.

I intend to post this on a few 5.7 friendly boards. Feel free to link to it to help the cause.

Mods I hope this isnt against code of conduct. I didnt see where it was and dont see how it can be bad. It will not only help the shooters but also allow stateside law enforcement agencies that use the 5.7 weapons to have a better choice of ammo.

Thanks
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 8:47:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 8:48:02 PM EDT by topgunpilot20]
Um, it's 5.7x28. This idea couldn't hurt. Expensive ammo is the main thing holding me back.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 1:40:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 1:41:12 PM EDT by KogaShuko]
Yeh I caught that after I wrote it. It cant hurt anything, cant understand why more people havnt signed it. Guess they want to be limited to one company and expensive ammo for the p90. If we could only get a cheaper (halfass wolftype hollow point even) for about $10 a box eventually it would be great.

At any rate we are up to 5.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 7:12:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2005 7:14:11 AM EDT by MP906]
Good luck and I hope you succeed b/c I have a P90 in my trunk right now with a whopping 150rds of ammo. However, I am skeptical.

LE departments that adopted the P90 were told several years ago that 5.7 prices would fall quickly. They never did. I just don't see 5.7 taking off. It will go the way of .45GAP, etc.





Link Posted: 12/18/2005 11:51:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2005 11:53:10 AM EDT by KogaShuko]
Well I think with the us secret service picking it up it will start to work out a little more. Furthermore there was a shortage at first due to the war in iraq. You can look now at the ps90 and the 5.7 pistol coming out with the addition of fiochi producing the ammo. For a while winchester was but I think they had an issue with the political termoil or something about the fiveseven.

You can think the brady bill people for that problem.

On that note there was a lady at the UPS store that refuses to mail guns or anything gun related. Apparently it isnt ups policy it is her policy at her store. She claimed it was a hazmat item, WTF NO, and that the brady laws regulate it highly. I tried to explain to her that the assualt weapons ban was dead but she didnt want to hear it.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 8:19:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KogaShuko:
Well I think with the us secret service picking it up it will start to work out a little more. Furthermore there was a shortage at first due to the war in iraq. You can look now at the ps90 and the 5.7 pistol coming out with the addition of fiochi producing the ammo. For a while winchester was but I think they had an issue with the political termoil or something about the fiveseven.

You can think the brady bill people for that problem.

On that note there was a lady at the UPS store that refuses to mail guns or anything gun related. Apparently it isnt ups policy it is her policy at her store. She claimed it was a hazmat item, WTF NO, and that the brady laws regulate it highly. I tried to explain to her that the assualt weapons ban was dead but she didnt want to hear it.



ORM-D

A lot of people are sensitive to that little sticker. I bought out Meijer's stock of Wolf .223 and Winchester 9mm luger and no one said a peep. The lady at the checkout register didn't flinch at all, it must be so commonplace here in Michigan.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 10:13:10 AM EDT
Like I said I had the gun not marked and the box marked. She wanted to prod through everything and ask what exactly was in the stuff (not suppose to do that either) and was like "this isnt a gun is it." Like I said I think it is her rule. I might take this up with corprate officially after the holidays.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 10:15:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 10:20:06 AM EDT by KogaShuko]
Ok I take that back, the site now sais the stores will not take it. I still dotn know if they should ask you about what is in your packages and help theirselfs though.

Reading more on their site it looks as if they can open and inspect what they are about to ship. Seems to me they should ask first and if you say no they will not ship it. Also, USPS can not inspect or ask you what is in the package. I think I will be using them from now on.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 1:47:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2005 6:06:36 AM EDT by metroplex]
USPS can inspect and will ask what's in the box. I found that if you went to the UPS customer service center directly to ship packages, they will take anything, literally ANYTHING.

I went to an Office Despot and it was designated a UPS store. It was run by some momo who shook my box and refused to ship it unless I added more packing material. I said, what the fuck? UPS ships rattling stuff all the time to me, even USPS.

I added more crap to make it not roll around.

I shipped a 50 lb push guard for a vehicle thru UPS directly (their customer service center) for $9 ground. The "box" was a bunch of cardboard duct taped together. The guy didn't say a SINGLE thing as he took it and put it on the conveyor system.

Needless to say when I ship small objects now, I either use a lot of paper (heavy) or I tape the object to the wall of the box and save on weight. I learned this from Amazon.com
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 10:25:23 PM EDT
Yeh the fact is that people at some of the stores are like people in society sometimes you get someone that does not like guns. They are in a possition of power and will do anything and everything to make things difficult for law abiding citizens with guns. I bet you could go to the store and ship a preasurized canister and when asked what it is say "serin" and they would say "OK" only because their uneducated mind doesnt comprehend what that is but htey understand gun.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 11:32:55 AM EDT
Got an email today indicating that some other mfgs were looking at possibly releasing the ammo.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 12:59:15 PM EDT
The more the better:
Winchester, Remington, Fiocchi, Black Hills, Wolf, etc...
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 1:47:49 PM EDT
Thats what I said. Even if people dont like the round they should at least sign the petition because no telling what it could spawn later down the road. Suppose someone comes out with a carbine that uses it that is in the $400-$500 range. You could argue stopping power on people all day but that thing will sure tear up some gofers, fox, prerry dogs, and beavers.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 2:30:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KogaShuko:
Thats what I said. Even if people dont like the round they should at least sign the petition because no telling what it could spawn later down the road. Suppose someone comes out with a carbine that uses it that is in the $400-$500 range. You could argue stopping power on people all day but that thing will sure tear up some gofers, fox, prerry dogs, and beavers.




Suppose Rhineland Arms comes out with carbine, and a AR15 upper in 5.7 in that price range ...hmmmm they might even post it on their website hmmmmm...... hmmmm
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 1:22:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pillbox:

Originally Posted By KogaShuko:
Thats what I said. Even if people dont like the round they should at least sign the petition because no telling what it could spawn later down the road. Suppose someone comes out with a carbine that uses it that is in the $400-$500 range. You could argue stopping power on people all day but that thing will sure tear up some gofers, fox, prerry dogs, and beavers.




Suppose Rhineland Arms comes out with carbine, and a AR15 upper in 5.7 in that price range ...hmmmm they might even post it on their website hmmmmm...... hmmmm



So it's ready for sale or is it in Shrike mode?
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:14:00 AM EDT
metro...there is just something really wrong with you
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 6:34:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 7:33:50 AM EDT by metroplex]
Well, is it ready for sale or is it still in Shrike mode? RA's website wasn't too informative on a firm price. I bet the PS90 will be available before the upper.


Coming Soon

Rhineland Arms will be offering 2 new rifles for the new 5.7*28mm caliber. These rifles will be modular, light and accurate. The 5.7*28 mm is a 22 caliber bullet, the same as a .223 that we are all used to.

The first rifle we will introducing in the 5.7mm caliber is a upper receiver for the AR15. It uses the 50 round magazines and features a true free float barrel, picitinny rails and more. The recoil springs are contained in the upper receiver. Price estimated to be $550 from the dealer.

The second rifle will be more traditional than the R22 yet still utilize a free float barrel for high accuracy capabilities. The rifle will use the standard pistol magazines in 10 or 20 rounds and feature a 17" button made barrel. Priced around $500

Information on the 5.7*28, reloading equipment can be had from Midway
Ammuntion at a good price will be available from Midway as well.



All 5.7 ammo at Midway is out of stock, no backorder. ETA: late january 06 (SS195, SS196).
I didn't see any brass for sale at Midway either, but I do see reloading equipment.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:34:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 7:36:51 AM EDT by KogaShuko]
Yeh hints the ammo problem. Looking at the 5.7 pistol but I really dont want to buy it until I can actually get ammo for it.

As far as $20 a box for the Vmax 197 I dont really have a problem with that. I saw a photo somewhere of that particular load opening that bullet to about the size of a expanded 9mm hp. That just argues 2 points at one time and I am personally comfortable with 21of those no recoiling things on my hip. Back to the price, that really isnt out of line for a carry load. I paid $20 for my winchester ranger in 40.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 8:48:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KogaShuko:
Yeh hints the ammo problem. Looking at the 5.7 pistol but I really dont want to buy it until I can actually get ammo for it.

As far as $20 a box for the Vmax 197 I dont really have a problem with that. I saw a photo somewhere of that particular load opening that bullet to about the size of a expanded 9mm hp. That just argues 2 points at one time and I am personally comfortable with 21of those no recoiling things on my hip. Back to the price, that really isnt out of line for a carry load. I paid $20 for my winchester ranger in 40.



If Winchester and Fiocchi both step up to the plate, the prices should drop
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 9:01:00 AM EDT
Well we are up to 58 on the petition now. That isnt bad for about a week. The numbers have picked up and hoping they will keep doing so.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 1:39:12 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:01:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 7:05:06 PM EDT by pillbox]
metroplex, I see you made it to a whole 7 posts over at five seven before they killed you off(banned)
But thats ok, we still love your BS over here....its a form of sick entertainment.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 1:08:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/23/2005 1:19:41 AM EDT by metroplex]
Well, apparently I was banned. 7 posts too, that's actually faster than DU. All I had to do was wait for P99Guy to quote stuff from ARFCOM.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 1:11:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By topgunpilot20:
Um, it's 5.7x28. This idea couldn't hurt. Expensive ammo is the main thing holding me back.




+1 its the only thing holding me back
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 11:52:12 AM EDT
#78
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 12:06:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By topgunpilot20:
Um, it's 5.7x28. This idea couldn't hurt. Expensive ammo is the main thing holding me back.



me too , just too expensive right now
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 2:50:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By metroplex:
Well, apparently I was banned. 7 posts too, that's actually faster than DU. All I had to do was wait for P99Guy to quote stuff from ARFCOM.



THAT SUCKS
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 6:54:38 AM EDT
Well obviusly you have some interest in the round. You just share a lot of reservations about its effectiveness and that is good if you are thinking about carrying something.

5.7 ammo petition to show them an interest.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 12:01:53 PM EDT
Well as of today you dont have to bother with the petition....Wolf just said they will be producing 5.7x28 ammo THIS YEAR... it will be intresting to see what bullets and velocites.

Link Posted: 1/5/2006 12:35:33 PM EDT

KABOOM!
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 7:15:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pillbox:
Well as of today you dont have to bother with the petition....Wolf just said they will be producing 5.7x28 ammo THIS YEAR... it will be intresting to see what bullets and velocites.




INFO? LINK? when i emailed them in december they said they had no plans to produce 5.7
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 5:04:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 5:05:22 AM EDT by metroplex]

Originally Posted By legonas:

Originally Posted By pillbox:
Well as of today you dont have to bother with the petition....Wolf just said they will be producing 5.7x28 ammo THIS YEAR... it will be intresting to see what bullets and velocites.




INFO? LINK? when i emailed them in december they said they had no plans to produce 5.7



I emailed them as well and they said they planned to start by the end of this year or early next year. Regardless, the news alone might churn the waters enough for other ammo makers to take notice. More ammo from different makers is a good thing, so price gouging will be kept at a minimum and availability will make the cartridge more popular as people start buying 5.7x28 based firearms.

The #1 complaint from most people re: possible purchase of a 5.7x28 firearm is the lack of ammo (I was one of them).

I am also waiting for the 50rd mags to be more available at a lower price. $50-$60/mag is kind of pricey but expected for such high demand / low supply mags.

I hope by this time next year, we'll be talking about the Walmart Winchester white box 5.7x28mm special boxes.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 8:46:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By metroplex:

Originally Posted By legonas:

Originally Posted By pillbox:
Well as of today you dont have to bother with the petition....Wolf just said they will be producing 5.7x28 ammo THIS YEAR... it will be intresting to see what bullets and velocites.




INFO? LINK? when i emailed them in december they said they had no plans to produce 5.7



I emailed them as well and they said they planned to start by the end of this year or early next year. Regardless, the news alone might churn the waters enough for other ammo makers to take notice. More ammo from different makers is a good thing, so price gouging will be kept at a minimum and availability will make the cartridge more popular as people start buying 5.7x28 based firearms.

my holdout on the five seven and ps90 was ammo. i was waiting for the ammo issue to resolve itself before i commit myself to the platform. once i get offical word on wolf producing ammo, im gonna get a five seven and put a ps90 on order. HELL YEA.

The #1 complaint from most people re: possible purchase of a 5.7x28 firearm is the lack of ammo (I was one of them).

I am also waiting for the 50rd mags to be more available at a lower price. $50-$60/mag is kind of pricey but expected for such high demand / low supply mags.

I consider 1$ per round capacity to be normal for newely manufactured magazines. 50$ is resonable for a 50rnd mag.

I hope by this time next year, we'll be talking about the Walmart Winchester white box 5.7x28mm special boxes.

i hope by may, ill be ordering wolf 5.7x28 from CTD and sportsmangsguide 5k rounds at a time at around 20-25 cents a round.


Link Posted: 1/6/2006 9:23:21 AM EDT
you're right about the $1/rd thing. I didn't think of it that way.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 10:00:52 AM EDT
I emailed them a couple of weeks back and they wrote to me that they were considering making it. I then emailed them a link to the petition. Now they are telling people they are going to make it.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 2:25:55 PM EDT
If Wolf starts making 5.7, I'm going to start saving up for a PS90SBR...

If you wanted to reload brass cases, where do you get the bullets from?
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 3:30:17 PM EDT
Well they are the same size as 223 stuff. In theory you could just stick 40grn Vmax bullets in there like Fiocci did. At the same time you could maybe make subsonic ammo by doing 55grn ammo. I would be interested in trying to load a subsonic round out of 5.7 brass and a ss109 bullet with steel penetrator. Would probably only fly at about 800fps if you could get enough powder in the case but it would be an ideal suppressed version of the round. Would be better than subsonic 556 because FN uses a 50grn bullet to cycle all their stuff subsonic. No more single shot subsonic weapons.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 3:56:43 PM EDT
Chamber pressure is listed at about 50,000 psi from the PS90 manual.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 4:04:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By metroplex:
you're right about the $1/rd thing. I didn't think of it that way.



Yeah, I'd love to buy some 32 round 9mm mags for my Colt 6450 for $32.00..
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 9:17:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2006 9:18:11 AM EDT by metroplex]
Now we just need a steady supply of 50rd P90 mags to lower the cost.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 9:54:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By metroplex:
Now we just need a steady supply of 50rd P90 mags to lower the cost.



Shhh...don't tell anyone. The 30 rounders can be made into 50's just by cutting the follower extension. Same spring and mag body.
Link Posted: 1/9/2006 9:58:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/9/2006 10:00:10 AM EDT by metroplex]

Originally Posted By NoAim:

Originally Posted By metroplex:
Now we just need a steady supply of 50rd P90 mags to lower the cost.



Shhh...don't tell anyone. The 30 rounders can be made into 50's just by cutting the follower extension. Same spring and mag body.



Where can you buy the 30rd mags? My PS90 came with a 30rd'er but otherwise I only see 50rd mags currently for sale. there may be 10rders and 30rders for sale in the future.

It's hard to justify the $50 pricetag considering the difference between the 30rd and 50rd P90 mag is in a 10 cent bottom lock plate. This is dying to be made into an aftermarket part when 30rd mags are available.
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 9:42:04 PM EDT
I understand the cost and lack of ammo thing, but I'm getting one anyway just to say thanks to FN for thinking of us. It's been a LONG time since we've been able to get anything new and cutting edge.

My thanks to FN. I hope it's so successful that they offer us versions of everything they've ever made.

Link Posted: 1/11/2006 7:02:38 AM EDT
"It's hard to justify the $50 pricetag considering the difference between the 30rd and 50rd P90 mag is in a 10 cent bottom lock plate"

Why do you think a 30 will be any cheaper? as you say its the same mag and convertable.
you got a PS90 when are you going to stop complaining? enjoy it or sell it. You complained before you got it, and thought 5.7 stunk/sucked/blowed chunks...now you complain that you have one.
you couldnt justify it before you purchesed it..and it still continues.........for gods sake go buy something your giddy over and heave the FN into the lake and shut up.
you cant justify having one....and I believe you, I cant justify you having one either..see we agree.
BWHAHAHAHA

Link Posted: 1/11/2006 7:33:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 7:37:17 AM EDT by metroplex]

Originally Posted By pillbox:
"It's hard to justify the $50 pricetag considering the difference between the 30rd and 50rd P90 mag is in a 10 cent bottom lock plate"

Why do you think a 30 will be any cheaper? as you say its the same mag and convertable.
you got a PS90 when are you going to stop complaining? enjoy it or sell it. You complained before you got it, and thought 5.7 stunk/sucked/blowed chunks...now you complain that you have one.
you couldnt justify it before you purchesed it..and it still continues.........for gods sake go buy something your giddy over and heave the FN into the lake and shut up.
you cant justify having one....and I believe you, I cant justify you having one either..see we agree.
BWHAHAHAHA




p99guy woops I meant pillbox, are you done trolling yet? I would enjoy it more as soon as I get ammo and more mags. None of which are really available (or if they are available, its at an inflated price). The stock MC-10-80 is a piece of junk unless you use it only at the range (fine for me). I plan to pick up a rail when they're more available at a decent price.

The 30rd mag would be cheaper using the same principle as the 50rd mag being $50 ($1/rd). I never said it will be cheaper, but using the $1/rd logic, it should be $30. They'll probably sell for $50 just the same as the 50rd mags. In due time they should drop in price if FN decides to flood the market, or the dealers decide to sell to civilians (Arizona Gun Runner apparently restricts 50rd P90 mags to LE/military only).
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 2:26:19 PM EDT
P99guy? nope. but I also tend to get tired of your multiple personality postings and yes I do have a screen name at five seven
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 3:30:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 3:40:18 PM EDT by metroplex]

Originally Posted By pillbox:
P99guy? nope. but I also tend to get tired of your multiple personality postings and yes I do have a screen name at five seven



p99guy was banned here around the same time you signed up here, and when p99guy signed up on the five seven forums. Coincidence? Multiple personality postings? Do you mean having actual non-Kool Aid opinions? For you and p99guy it seems like its either 100% or 0% - you either have to like the 5.7x28 cartridge and the PS90 in its entirety, or you are a "troll" and get banned from DU/Five-seveN forums. How dareth yee say anything bad about 5.7x28 or the P90/PS90. The MC-10-80 is "perfect", its the user that is at fault mantra seemed to work until several others noticed the same deficiencies in the stock reflex sight. Someone even showed me a post that p99guy made where he accused me of making up the term "rate of fire stabilizer" in regards to the anti-bounce weight on the movng parts group. It'd help if he actually had the PS90 to begin with.

There are at least 4-5 different folks here on ARFCOM that know me from other boards (cars, computers, guns, Ford EEC, Mustangs, etc...) and they'll probably tell you that I do the same thing with anything else: point out the negatives and the positives at the same time. For instance:

PS90:
Cons: Reflex sight sucks unless you use it for range-duty with brown paper in broad daylight, mag changes are a bit slower than a drop-free system, proper shouldering/cheek weld can be uncomfortable for those with long necks.

Pros: Easy to field strip and clean, ambidextrous and fairly ergonomic (just not 100% comfortable), balanced at trigger hand, easy to install single point sling

It's just my no BS assessment.

Sorry for the thread hijack KogaShuko - I think MagTech might be thinking about producing 5.7x28. I contacted Federal and they haven't responded yet other than that its forwarded to the proper department.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 4:08:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 5:17:24 PM EDT by MP906]

Originally Posted By metroplex:

Originally Posted By pillbox:
P99guy? nope. but I also tend to get tired of your multiple personality postings and yes I do have a screen name at five seven



p99guy was banned here around the same time you signed up here, and when p99guy signed up on the five seven forums. Coincidence? Multiple personality postings? Do you mean having actual non-Kool Aid opinions? For you and p99guy it seems like its either 100% or 0% - you either have to like the 5.7x28 cartridge and the PS90 in its entirety, or you are a "troll" and get banned from DU/Five-seveN forums. How dareth yee say anything bad about 5.7x28 or the P90/PS90. The MC-10-80 is "perfect", its the user that is at fault mantra seemed to work until several others noticed the same deficiencies in the stock reflex sight. Someone even showed me a post that p99guy made where he accused me of making up the term "rate of fire stabilizer" in regards to the anti-bounce weight on the movng parts group. It'd help if he actually had the PS90 to begin with.

There are at least 4-5 different folks here on ARFCOM that know me from other boards (cars, computers, guns, Ford EEC, Mustangs, etc...) and they'll probably tell you that I do the same thing with anything else: point out the negatives and the positives at the same time. For instance:

PS90:
Cons: Reflex sight sucks unless you use it for range-duty with brown paper in broad daylight, mag changes are a bit slower than a drop-free system, proper shouldering/cheek weld can be uncomfortable for those with long necks.

Pros: Easy to field strip and clean, ambidextrous and fairly ergonomic (just not 100% comfortable), balanced at trigger hand, easy to install single point sling

It's just my no BS assessment.

Sorry for the thread hijack KogaShuko - I think MagTech might be thinking about producing 5.7x28. I contacted Federal and they haven't responded yet other than that its forwarded to the proper department.



Thank God there is someone else here that realizes the P90 is not the be-all-end-all of subguns.

The last thread I tried to give my opinion as someone who has been issued and trains w/ theP90 and was attacked by pillhead, oops I mean pillbox, among others, who have zero experience w/ it.

The P90/PS90 is far from perfect. The issues you address are absolutely correct. Using an EOtech makes the POA/POI way, WAY off for CQB. The selector switch is horrible. People are always looking down to check it is is on or off, etc. It is not a positive, no mistakes, switch like the M4, etc. The thumbhole pistol grip thingy will wear your wrist out quickly if you have to hold the gun at the ready for long periods.

Our team has had P90's since they first came out. We have complained about its issues, including $1/shot ammo prices. I can tell you that FN is highly concerened that we keep using the P90, b/c they are throwing free ammo at us, hoping we will stick w/ it and not have a big agency drop their gun. Marketing is everything.

Overall, it is a good, innovative weapon for what it was intended for: a rear area weapon for support troops, akin to the M1 carbine of WW2. As a CQB gun, it leaves much to be desired.

I recommend everyone go out and buy one so FN will bring the SCAR to the market as well


Link Posted: 1/11/2006 5:47:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 5:58:39 PM EDT by metroplex]
I hear you on the selector. I keep forgetting which setting it is on, and its definitely not as intuitive as the safety on an AR or even an AK. You're also definitely right about the "ergonomics". It's not torture to use, but it could have been better. For one, the trigger pull length is longer than what I'd expect. Mag changes are a bit slow but I've been getting used to it. The slowest part is removing the mag. The release pad doesn't have enough surface area for your thumb so you need the force of both your index and thumb. That leaves your middle and ring finger to awkwardly lift out the mag. Glock users seem to think that using the slide stop as a slide release requires fine motor functions. Mag changes on the PS90/P90 requires about 5x more fine motor function.
This may not have been an issue on a well-worn demo P90 though. The PS90's mag release pad requires 8 lb-force to push back when brand new.
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 7:53:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2006 8:19:31 PM EDT by DmL5]

Originally Posted By MP906:
Thank God there is someone else here that realizes the P90 is not the be-all-end-all of subguns.

The last thread I tried to give my opinion as someone who has been issued and trains w/ theP90 and was attacked by pillhead, oops I mean pillbox, among others, who have zero experience w/ it.

The P90/PS90 is far from perfect. The issues you address are absolutely correct. Using an EOtech makes the POA/POI way, WAY off for CQB. The selector switch is horrible. People are always looking down to check it is is on or off, etc. It is not a positive, no mistakes, switch like the M4, etc. The thumbhole pistol grip thingy will wear your wrist out quickly if you have to hold the gun at the ready for long periods.

Our team has had P90's since they first came out. We have complained about its issues, including $1/shot ammo prices. I can tell you that FN is highly concerened that we keep using the P90, b/c they are throwing free ammo at us, hoping we will stick w/ it and not have a big agency drop their gun. Marketing is everything.

Overall, it is a good, innovative weapon for what it was intended for: a rear area weapon for support troops, akin to the M1 carbine of WW2. As a CQB gun, it leaves much to be desired.

I recommend everyone go out and buy one so FN will bring the SCAR to the market as well

Why bring this into every single P90 thread? You're making a big deal out of absolutely nothing. Your personal preferences just aren't very relevant to people, because when it comes to ergonomics everyone is different and each person's preferences will decide what is good, bad, or acceptable. There's a reason why some people find a gun to handle good, and some don't. Ever think about that? Another thing to meditate on is that some people complain about a "hard-to-operate switch", (you do it in every one of these threads) and some people learn to live with it and decide that a "hard-to-operate switch" doesn't outweigh the gun's merits. As for the EOtech sight, it isn't somehow the gun's fault that you chose a sight that doesn't work well with it..


Originally Posted By MP906:
The P90/PS90 is far from perfect.

According to your original review, the weapon gets 11 negatives and 1 positive. In other words, you have a personal bias against it. Nothing wrong with that, (like I said, it's a matter of personal preference) but going into each and every thread and proclaiming that personal preference as fact (and shoving it down throats like you're doing right now) is just plain troll.

And metroplex, you really do have something wrong with you. I've read all the posts you made before your purchase and you were adament that you had no use at all for the PS90. If you like, I'll quote the pages of posts you made about how bad the ergonomics, prices, availability, ballistics, etc were. About a month later, you had one. (what did you like that made you buy it?) Anyone that is so built up against a weapon, switches views entirely in about a month, and then goes out and preorders it (and receives one of the first ones) does indeed qualify as multiple personality.


Originally Posted By metroplex:
The MC-10-80 is "perfect", its the user that is at fault

Just get the USG sight -- you can easily afford it if you can afford to preorder a $1400-1800 gun that you've spent hours of your life bashing..



-DmL
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 10:07:55 PM EDT
Pillhead? lol thats cute moldyPooper906 .....funny you should bring up FN giving your dept free ammo again(I still remember the last time that was hashed out) and it was generally concluded to be a false statement. but still you cant help but keep saying it.....it is a catchy lie , I give it that.
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