Just get the USG sight -- you can easily afford it if you can afford to preorder a $1400-1800 gun that you've spent hours of your life bashing..

Wooo the Five-seveN moderators are here. I'm willing to bet FNH just dumped the MC-10-80s on the PS90s because no one wants them. Not Houston PD, not the USSS, etc... There are many many complaints about the trijicon reflex, which seems to work on the same concept as the MC-10-80, so I am not alone here. The only people who seem to constantly argue about my reflex sight complaints are the ones that don't have PS90s and drink the FNH Kool-Aid.

So why are you guys trolling ARFCOM? Do you even have a PS90? It's funny how there's a PS90 fan club that will attack anyone who criticizes it, yet the fan club hasn't even used a PS90, just some demo time with a P90. I liked how p99guy was so obsessed that he accused me of making up names for PS90 parts, when the owner's manual clearly shows the same designations for the components.

And metroplex, you really do have something wrong with you. I've read all the posts you made before your purchase and you were adament that you had no use at all for the PS90. If you like, I'll quote the pages of posts you made about how bad the ergonomics, prices, availability, ballistics, etc were. About a month later, you had one. (what did you like that made you buy it?) Anyone that is so built up against a weapon, switches views entirely in about a month, and then goes out and preorders it (and receives one of the first ones) does indeed qualify as multiple personality.

You guys have a reading comprehension problem. About a week after I posted my evaluations of the 5.7x28, I decided to pre-order one (PS90) figuring its not coming in until March. 2 weeks later, I get a call saying my PS90 arrived. I liked the P90 since about 10 years ago (its just a different looking gun). I'm not too fond of the mag and ammo scalping prices though. After doing more research on 5.7x28, its not too bad of a caliber but it won't replace my MBRs anytime soon. Check my avatar to see my opinion of the PS90.

Naaa we saw all your old posts on that here. Read them when they were new. Im sure I can find them if you need them to show DML how "wrong" he is.
This is like somebody holding a kitten over a campfire, taunting bystanders for  attention(its a hoot to watch you do it)

bla, bla, bla...

Tha fact is that only two people here ACTUALLY HAVE P90s/PS90s.

The other two are just talking heads.

And for the record, I have run both the EOtech and the factory holo sight.  The factory sight has much better POA/POI, but the reticlce tends to dissapear when going in and out of light/dark.  Not good!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Now we just need a steady supply of 50rd P90 mags to lower the cost. Shhh...don't tell anyone. The 30 rounders can be made into 50's just by cutting the follower extension. Same spring and mag body. Where can you buy the 30rd mags? My PS90 came with a 30rd'er but otherwise I only see 50rd mags currently for sale. there may be 10rders and 30rders for sale in the future. It's hard to justify the $50 pricetag considering the difference between the 30rd and 50rd P90 mag is in a 10 cent bottom lock plate. This is dying to be made into an aftermarket part when 30rd mags are available.

$40.00 is below dealer cost.

ETA: there are somethings about how their site is ran that bugs the crap out of me.  That does not mean I don't enjoy the site.  It is a great resource for all things 5.7.  I will still be a active member over there.  Just have to obey the rules as is all, just like on here.

Quoted: Tha fact is that only two people here ACTUALLY HAVE P90s/PS90s.

So you hold to the belief that everyone's experiences with this gun's ergonomics will mirror yours? Especially when anyone I know of that operates with the P90 on a daily basis has nothing but good things to say about it? Once again, you're trying to say that what you feel and what you see as a potential problem will apply to everyone on this board. The problem is that these nitpicks are drawn from your opinion. They don't apply to some (or most) other people, because people are different and therefore their opinions on different things are different. You can't see that, hence you keep on coming into these threads with the same old things. I will see you in the next P90 thread..

The only people who seem to constantly argue about my reflex sight complaints are the ones that don't have PS90s and drink the FNH Kool-Aid.

I never said the reflex sight was any good -- that's up to each person to decide personally. What I said is that you should just use something else if you don't like the standard, rather than cry about it..


-DmL

I have gradually gotten more use to using the factory optics, while my wife laughs at me as I walk around the house with the PS90. At first I really did not like the optics but they are growing on me.

This weekend I should get plenty of trigger time to play with it outside.  



D

Try turning the lights out in your bathroom and walking from a lighted room into there.  Can you still see the reticle?  Now try shining a Surefire at the wall and see if the reticle is visible.  

All of our factory sights are unusable in low light for those reasons

Our guns are a couple years old, so your sight may be better since its new.

Like I said, EOtechs are not really an option is CQB b/c you have to do aim 8 inches high.

If FN would fix the sight, maybe make it battery powered, then that issue would be fixed.

The rest of the issues are design related.  The statement about needing fine motor skills to operate this weapon is absolutely correct.  

And, unlike some,  I didnt "hear" this or "read' this from a third party.  My opinion is based on actual use in training, not playing with a dealer sample at a gun show.

Quoted: The rest of the issues are design related.

They're opinion-related, otherwise they would be being voiced by other users too. HERE is an article that shows this. You found them to be issues, the HPD SWAT member that wrote that article didn't. Conclusion: it's a matter of personal opinion. How else would you explain two different people having experience with the exact same weapon and having different views about it? And if it is a matter of personal opinion, you really have no place coming into each and every one of these threads like you do, and stating that opinion as indisputable fact..

The sight problem can be fixed by using something else. Like I said, it isn't a fault with the weapon that you chose a specific sight for it and the two don't work very well together..



-DmL

Well, if Sandy wants to chime in w/ his opinion thats great.  The point is...why are YOU here giving a non-opinion?  You are trolling.

That article admitted "the P90 is not all things to all people" and that the factory sights suck.  They switched to EOtechs.  So did we.  The EOtechs are FAR from ideal b/c of a horrible POA/POI problem.

To be fair, he did mention two positives: clear mags and ambidextrous design.

He did not touch on fine motor skills needed to operate the safety, the magazine release, or the charging handle, not to mention the lack of a true trigger guard.  In both the SOCOM and SWAT world there is an increasing trend in CQB to keep the safety on in the stack, upon entry, and until a threat is percieved.  We have not adopted this yet, but the trend is there.  The P90's selector switch would not even be close to ideal for this type of SOP.  

Quoted: The point is...why are YOU here giving a non-opinion?

I'm not giving an opinion on the gun, I'm pointing out that your opinion is an opinion. You can't realize that, so you keep bringing this into every single P90 thread time after time. Everyone knows you don't like this and that about the gun. It's just irrational to..

1. Expect that everyone else will find these nitpicks to be major problems. (some will, some won't)
2. Do it every month as if the past discussions didn't exist.

They switched to EOtechs.  So did we.  The EOtechs are FAR from ideal b/c of a horrible POA/POI problem.

Once again, that isn't a fault with the gun.



-DmL

Quoted: Quoted: The point is...why are YOU here giving a non-opinion? I'm not giving an opinion on the gun, I'm pointing out that your opinion is an opinion. You can't realize that, so you keep bringing this into every single P90 thread time after time. Everyone knows you don't like this and that about the gun. It's just irrational to.. 1. Expect that everyone else will find these nitpicks to be major problems. (some will, some won't) 2. Do it every month as if the past discussions didn't exist. They switched to EOtechs.  So did we.  The EOtechs are FAR from ideal b/c of a horrible POA/POI problem. Once again, that isn't a fault with the gun. -DmL

why even bother with them?

I also read that astigmatism will affect clarity of the reflex sight (which many people who wear glasses will have) Trijicon states their polarizing filter will help reduce the "wash out" effect with their reflex sight. Unfortunately there's no lens housing on the MC-10-80 to attach a polarizing filter. I have noticed that my eyes are starting to pick up the reticules faster but I usually have to try it with one eye open. Both eyes open can sometimes result in the reticule disappearing, for me at least.

That is the only reason I asked if you had anything like that and if you let someone else try yours. The military has had some issues with ACOGs for that reason. I had issues with standard optical sights before I got my eyes fixed. I didnt have astigmatism but I could see a lot better close up than far off. For that reason my eyes had a tendency to focus on the rear sight more than anything. With glasses I had problems with them shifting durring rifle qual and screwing up my sight picture. After I qualed after the surgury I got 39 out of 40 without an issue.


Everyone understands that the p90 is not an end all be all. MP906 you are probably one of the best people to talk to on the subject since you have used them on a team of some sort (probably swat/sort/tac or whatever the hell they call it there.) I have used a m16a4 in the same type of thing and I would have gladly taken a p90 for buildings. However, in my situation if I could only have carried one it woulda been the m4 with 14.5 inch barrel. If I had only been doing raids or I was going to be a gunner on a vehicle (which I did a lot) I would have liked a P90. 50rounds woulda been real nice since I have a tendency to shoot a little extra (younger days playing paintball.) Also I originally looked at the EOTech option when ordering my PS90 but ruled it out because the damn thing went so high on my Mp5. I wonder if a Acog Compact 2x might be better.

So I have some questions for MP906 if you dont mind about your experience with it.

How you you like the 5.7 effectiveness?

Do you like it better than the MP5 for the type of work you do?

What would you rather have since you dont want the p90 for raids?

Any major problems with the setup so far?

How do the mags hold up (ie in their pouches, had all sorts of problems with my m16 mags getting bumped, dropping rounds, bending rounds and f*** the colt with out of line lower and upper)


Also, dont mind you all hijacking the thread. It bumps it for the better. Rather you like the thing or not still doesnt make a difference. If you have any interest in it at all the smart thing to do is go ahead and tag the petition to increase everyones options. Who knows some us company might make some sort of magic bullet combination that is found to be real effective.

I can see a number of ways to improve upon the MC-10-80:
* Have a battery powered light as an additional method of illumination (a tiny LED would be all that is required).
* Brighter or extra tritium modules for night time reticule illumination (note that you can see the Tritium glowing in the room, but its losing a lot of lighting efficiency through the fiber optic).
* Different colored static reticules. Red or Green is probably better suited - even in the sky, a bright green HUD can still show up (aircraft HUD) while red will pretty much show up almost everytime.

Of course LEOs and tactical units probably just go with an EOTech or Aimpoint for close quarters work.

Also where did you get the preasureswitch/ mounting ring for the 6P?

Metroplex, like I said, the sight issue is the #1 killer of the P90.

Using an EOtech or Aimpoint puts the sight way to high above the bore for CQB work.  You literally have to aim 6-8 inches above your target.  With the factory sight, point of aim/point of impact is within a couple inches.  The EOTech/Aimpoint would work fine for 90% of civilian use, but for entry work, where hostages may be present, they are simply not very good.

If the factory sight was battery powered like an Aimpoint, etc it would be great.  

Koga,

#1  We have yet to shoot anyone w/ P90s.  All our shootings have been w/ M4s, Glocks, or 870s so far.  I would not feel underpowered w/ a 5.7 P90, especially in full auto mode when you can put lots of rounds on target in an instant.  I like the fact that the 5.7 will penetrate armor should the bad guy being wearing it.  The main problem w/ 5.7 is well, what started this thread, the price and availability.  I just don't see the 5.7 ever really taking off.  It is too exotic.  The only way the 5.7 will really come down in price is if the P90 becomes as widespread in use as the MP5 back in its hay-day.  I doubt this though, as the M4 is taking over.

#2  We use to have MP5s, although I didnt have a whole lot of trigger time on them.  Overall, I like the more traditional design of the MP5, but it didnt have the best ergonomics either(selector was designed for gorillas).  I've met very few coperators that prefer bullpups over traditional style weapons.  The .40 cal was obviously cheap and available, but it wont penetrate armor.  We did not have any optics on our MP5s, which sucked.

#3  My department bought the P90s without any input from the actual tactical operators.  They traded in 10.5" M4s and MP5s for the P90s.  The overwhelming consensus on my team is, "give us back the old guns".  I prefer SBRs to subguns for entry work, as they are just more versitle.  Right now, the best entry gun on the market would be a  10.5" M4 w/ a Noveske or a suppressor.  I think in the next couple years, FN might come out w/ a good gas piston SBR like the SCAR, etc. that may be better.

#4  Major problems w/ the setup are as follows(in order of importance):

 - Sights:  The factory sight is sitting at the right spot but needs major work(Fixable).  This gun has no iron sights.(Design)
 - Ammunition:  it needs to come down in price A LOT.  I am doubtful that it will(Fixable).
 - Ergonomics:

      -All of the controls require fine motor skills, especially the selector and mag release(Design).
      -The charging handle is also to small, especially with gloves on.(Fixable?)  
      -The "trigger guard" is to big.  Finding a place to put your trigger finger, so as to keep it out of there, is difficult.  And some folks are putting there weak hand thumb IN the trigger guard to get a grip.  NOT GOOD.(Design)  
     If you'll notice the stonghand grip is almost completely horizontal.  Which tweaks the hell out of your wrist in a hurry, king of like holding a traditional shotgun at the ready for long periods of time(Design).  
      -Bullpup design puts the majority of the weapon behind your hands.  As with any other bullpup, this makes it hard to get a good CQB stance, especially w/ an entry vest on.  Basically, look at the LOP of an M4 with the stock all the way closed.  The LOP on the P90 is far greater than that distance(Design).  
       -Top loading mag is unfamiliar w/ any other weapon system.  

#5  The magazines have not been an issue.  They are pretty damn cool actually.  Very few mag pouches available.  We use a dropleg BlackHawk pouch

 
Personally, I would never drop $1,300 on a PS90.  I'd rather pay the ATF $200 and get an SBR M4 if you need a more compact weapon.  The M4 will do everything the P90 does, except in full auto the P90 shines.  

I do hope FN sells enough PS90s to keep them interested in the U.S. market.  I am really interested in a SCAR.



 

Quoted: Also where did you get the preasureswitch/ mounting ring for the 6P?

It was issued that way.  I can ask around and find out.

DmL5, I am sorry if you don't like my chiming in on many of the P90 threads.

 When so few people have had significant experience w/ the weapon and are inquiring about it, I figure my experience can provide some insight.  I have never stated that everyone's opinion should or will mirror mine.  But, I find it interesting that those of us here who have the weapon are agreeing for the most part.

I still don't understand why you come into every P90 thread though, other than to stir up crap.

I have never stated that everyone's opinion should or will mirror mine.

It's the way you do it once a month, that makes you come across like someone that just wants to whine about the gun he's issued.

But, I find it interesting that those of us here who have the weapon are agreeing for the most part.

One other person, and that person was thoroughly trashing the weapon before he even had it.

I still don't understand why you come into every P90 thread though, other than to stir up crap.

Me?



-DmL

Would everyone knock this shit off !

This thread is about advancing the 5.7 round, not a P90/PS90 pissing contest !

If you guys are not careful you will get this thread locked..... one similar to this one got locked a few months ago, so stop it !

Now.... carry on with ways to get more ammo into production,etc.

The only trolls I see here are DmL5 and pillbox/p99guy, who also happen to be moderators on their own planet/forum. What MP906 has said here and in the past was basically the same conclusion that I drew after playing around with the PS90. However, the same guys (Dml5 and p99guy/pillbox) kept stirring up stuff regarding his posts in the past. They have an entire thread devoted to me at their forum.

Back to ammo:
So far only Fiocchi is making the stuff for FN (SS197).
Wolf has shown some interest.
No word on Federal or Magtech yet.
What about Winchester? I know there is a petition to get them to resume production.
Any word on Remington?

There are plenty of 30 gr - 55 gr .224" bullets to choose from, so reloading isn't an issue except for case availability. The cheapest reload from what I can see would be a 55 gr FMJBT bullet either loaded as per Sb193 or to supersonic speeds. The 30 gr - 40 gr varmint bullets are at least twice as expensive.

Remington said to watch the shot show. They would officially be releasing all new products then. That sounds to me like a possibility then. Wolf has said they are going to do it and people are talking with magtech trying to get them to do the same. I think we need to get federal in on it now.

Federal usually will make stuff if there is going to be federal agencies or local agencies buying in. I dont see why they wouldnt in this case now that the USSS is getting it and there are so many local law enforcement agencies complaining that they dont have it.

MP906 is the first person I have heard that bring up complaints that dont center around the effectiveness of the cartridge like everyone else on other threads that never would need it for that reason anyway. The optic sounds like a big one and that it is kind of picky on who it works on. This goes hand in hand for poor implementation of aftermarket optics. The rail forces you to raise the optic so high it isnt practical. Maybe some people like that I dont know. Has anyone tried putting an aimpoint with a low mount on one of the side rails and shoot down the side? Also what about a low mount acog compact? The fine motor skills sound like something that should be looked at on the FN end or the posibility for aftermarket mods. I think FNs idea was not to have anything that might hang up but might be a double edged sword. Finally, does hand exersizes like grip strength devices and gyro balls seem to help the forward grip fatige? Those things might also help with follow up shots with handguns. This is something I have been wanting to look into for a while for IDPA. I go to the gym so I can run faster and longer, lift more, get strength to help over power people, practice DT, and shoot. Why wouldnt wrist exercises for follow up shots and steadier shooting make sense?

Quoted: MP906 is the first person I have heard that bring up complaints that dont center around the effectiveness of the cartridge

That should tell you something..



-DmL

The P90 was designed as a PDW for REMFs as a replacement for only a sidearm. In this application, it works great. Imagine downed pilots with a P90 and 3-4 spare 50rd mags - they can shoot it onehanded full-auto injured and the recoil shouldn't be an issue. That is my interpretation of why FN went all out with recoil management (twin guide rods, twin recoil springs, recoil buffer, barrel recoil movement, etc...)
I saw the tiny 5.7x28 cartridge and the amount of recoil management. It was like someone wanted to eliminate all recoil from something that doesn't recoil much in the first place. Downed pilots may be injured so it's not a good idea to have them blasting away with a 30-06. They'd be more effective with a P90 than a M9/M11 pistol (more mag capacity, better penetration, less recoil, longer range, etc...) Does this make sense?

Also imagine P90s in use with the Abrams/Bradley/Stryker crews. It's pretty tight inside as it is, even a 10.5" M4 would be kind of hard to use in that environment with the cases flying everywhere. However, I think FN found that no one wanted P90s as PDWs for REMFs because of the cost (ammo, mags, gun). The M9 or M11 pistols are much cheaper. ($300-$400 per unit, $5 mags, even cheaper ammo - this is of course bulk procurement costs)

Quoted: Quoted: MP906 is the first person I have heard that bring up complaints that dont center around the effectiveness of the cartridge That should tell you something.. -DmL

Also, probably one of the few who have actually used the P90 and are speaking reality, not theory.  



 That explains a lot.  I didnt know about the FN forum deal.

Metroplex is exactly right.  The P90 was designed as a 21st century M1 carbine, not a dedicated CQB weapon.  

If we can get ammo to come down, get the factory sight redone, and maybe an aftermarket charging handle, it would be a huge step in the right direction.

Quoted: What MP906 has said here and in the past was basically the same conclusion that I drew after playing around with the PS90.

His original review of the P90 contained 11 negatives and 1 positive. Why do you keep your $1400-1800 PS90 if you think same as he does?

Quoted: get the factory sight redone

Once again, the factory sight has already been redone. It's called the P90 USG.

Quoted: Also, probably one of the few who have actually used the P90 and are speaking reality, not theory.

Actually you are the first user that has ever mentioned those problems (other than the sight) to me. This includes any police, FPS, or USSS users I've talked to. Nitpicks vary from person to person as to whether or not they're considered a problem -- you need to accept that.



-DmL

Has anyone used a tiny dot sight like the Dr Optic with a P90 or PS90?

I was told the M249 is suppose to be a mighty fine weapon but I just dont like it. Same principle of someone not liking a P90. At least it is a ligitimate complaint of manipulation other than "it isnt a magical death ray like my 1911." If the thing fit everyone then everyone would be sold one at a gun shop and you would only have the choice of color.

I think it probably wasnt ment to be a CQB weapon but it has a lot of improvements over what I have seen and used before. I would like to now get my hands on it and try it out for extended amounts of time. The real test will be if I can outshoot myself with my AR with mine when I get it. If I can then it is worth it for me.

Anyway, does anyone know where to get that 6P preasure end cap for mine at that he has on his? It doesnt look like the knights one.

Quoted: Quoted: What MP906 has said here and in the past was basically the same conclusion that I drew after playing around with the PS90. His original review of the P90 contained 11 negatives and 1 positive. Why do you keep your $1400-1800 PS90 if you think same as he does? Quoted: get the factory sight redone Once again, the factory sight has already been redone. It's called the P90 USG. Quoted: Also, probably one of the few who have actually used the P90 and are speaking reality, not theory. Actually you are the first user that has ever mentioned those problems (other than the sight) to me. This includes any police, FPS, or USSS users I've talked to. Nitpicks vary from person to person as to whether or not they're considered a problem -- you need to accept that. -DmL

Well, some dude I talked to last night thought he was Jesse James.  Big deal.  Why don't you invite the actual users of the product on here to discuss and leave the discussion to the adults.

Quoted: Why don't you invite the actual users of the product on here to discuss

Would you like me to PM you their board names? I'll let you talk to either the FPS or USSS agent personally on IM. If so, be sure to ask them if they find the selector switch and other controls to be a major problem with the P90. I'm not about to drag them into this discussion though.

Quoted: Well, some dude I talked to last night thought he was Jesse James. Big deal.

You don't understand, do you? You are also "some dude" I "talked to". No one has ever mentioned the problems with the controls that you mention. Did the Houston PD article mention them? No. In fact, go ahead and show me any police or govt user of the weapon (not "metroplex") that finds the P90 controls to be a major problem. And if you can't, please accept your personal nitpicks as being personal nitpicks..

Quoted: I was told the M249 is suppose to be a mighty fine weapon but I just dont like it. Same principle of someone not liking a P90.

Some people just can't grasp it..



-DmL

Why is my opinion "biased" and yours isnt?  I have no reason to be biased.  I don't run a FN forum.  One that apparantly bans people who dislike FN products...

You wholesale defend every FN weapon made.  Anyone can say, "I know a super secret federlal agent's wife's brother's dog's friend that LOVES the P90.  I swear to god man, he told me so!"

The fact remains that you have nothing to add to the discussion but third party, anecdotal information and even that I doubt is true.  What, did yoiu ask the guy if he liked the P90 as he led you away in handcuffs?  You are constantly trolling every P90 thread where anyone offers anything but glowing reviews of the weapon.

I am done feeding the

If anyone would like more info. from an actual user of the P90, IM me.

Quoted: Why is my opinion "biased" and yours isnt?  I have no reason to be biased.  I don't run a FN forum. One that apparantly bans people who dislike FN products...

I'll post this in red so you understand.. It doesn't matter if my opinion is biased or not, because I'm not giving my opinion on the P90, nor am I asking anyone to "trust me". I am relaying the opinions of several others and those opinions differ from yours. You therefore have to accept one of the following:

1. You alone are right, and all of them are wrong.
2. They are right, and you are wrong.
3. Neither of you rule out the other, because it's a matter of personal opinion.

I still believe #3. Which do you believe? Surely not #1?

Quoted: Anyone can say, "I know a super secret federlal agent's wife's brother's dog's friend that LOVES the P90."

No, I'm giving you the opportunity to correspond privately with either of them. Since you don't seem to be interested in doing that, you have no right to proclaim them "third party".



-DmL

Sorry to interupt the rant, but just noticed CMMG has the 50rd mags on their site for 39.95.  I think this is a good deal so here is the link....

cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/index.php?shop=1&cart=239920&cat=17&


I am in no way affiliated with CMMG, was just looking on their site for 22lr AR mags and came across that.

You are looking at the 57 handgun mags....

The P90 mags are 59.95...

Hope no one got their hopes up  

2 years ago, the P90 50rd mags were $40 each.

Quoted: 2 years ago, the P90 50rd mags were $40 each.

Gas was under $2.00 here in PHX.  I was making 33% less than i am now.  
Prices go up.  Big deal.

Also there was zero demand for them back then.

Quoted: Quoted: 2 years ago, the P90 50rd mags were $40 each. Gas was under $2.00 here in PHX.  I was making 33% less than i am now.   Prices go up.  Big deal. Also there was zero demand for them back then.

It seems the "demand" spiked up the prices at most vendors (not gunbroker sellers) by as much as $30 literally overnight. If PDs and LEOs didn't want to switch to the P90, they won't want to switch now with the mag prices higher than before and ammo prices about as high as they were. If this is FN's plan to have more PDs switchover, its not working that well. Just my 2 cents.

I'm still waiting for the ammo and mags to drop before buying more. I can wait.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: 2 years ago, the P90 50rd mags were $40 each. Gas was under $2.00 here in PHX.  I was making 33% less than i am now.   Prices go up.  Big deal. Also there was zero demand for them back then. It seems the "demand" spiked up the prices at most vendors (not gunbroker sellers) by as much as $30 literally overnight. If PDs and LEOs didn't want to switch to the P90, they won't want to switch now with the mag prices higher than before and ammo prices about as high as they were. If this is FN's plan to have more PDs switchover, its not working that well. Just my 2 cents. I'm still waiting for the ammo and mags to drop before buying more. I can wait.

Yeah, those guys at FN are a bunch or real dummies.  FN will sell more PS90’s to the US civilian population then they could ever dream of selling P90’s to a few SWAT guys.  Don’t forget, it’s been 17 years since anything really new hit the US market.  17 YEARS of pent up demand; think about that.  You have tens of thousands of gun enthusiasts whose primary interest is modern military firearms and all they’ve had to play with for close to two decades is AR’s and AK’s.  

I got to play with one of the PS90’s at the local gun store and I have to say it’s just plain neat!  Would I buy one?  Not at the current price and not with the current ammo situation, but I think FN is going to have trouble keeping up with demand for the rest of this year, at least.

Yeah, those guys at FN are a bunch or real dummies. FN will sell more PS90’s to the US civilian population then they could ever dream of selling P90’s to a few SWAT guys. Don’t forget, it’s been 17 years since anything really new hit the US market. 17 YEARS of pent up demand; think about that. You have tens of thousands of gun enthusiasts whose primary interest is modern military firearms and all they’ve had to play with for close to two decades is AR’s and AK’s. I got to play with one of the PS90’s at the local gun store and I have to say it’s just plain neat! Would I buy one? Not at the current price and not with the current ammo situation, but I think FN is going to have trouble keeping up with demand for the rest of this year, at least.

Just ask Glock about their LE customers. Ask Ford about their LE customers. Glock sells LE kits to LEOs for about $350 a piece (includes 3 std cap mags) versus $475 to civilians (only includes 2 std cap mags).
Ford sells the CVPI to PDs at about $19k each. Civilians can select a new CV from $24k to $32k. Springfield and Smith and Wesson have seen their piece of the pie slowly decrease because of Glock.
FN, as a large weapons manufacturer, would prefer to sell to military and law enforcement at a smaller profit per weapon because the military customers will buy in large quantities. So far, the military showed very little interest in the P90 and F2000 when FN demo'd the units in SWA. Most of the guys in the know don't like the ballistics of 5.7x28 when they already have 5.56x45 or 9mm.

The Rhineland 5.7 AR upper appears to be highly desired in the civilian market. If that picks up, it may help the PS90 owners.

Quoted: Yeah, those guys at FN are a bunch or real dummies. FN will sell more PS90’s to the US civilian population then they could ever dream of selling P90’s to a few SWAT guys. Don’t forget, it’s been 17 years since anything really new hit the US market. 17 YEARS of pent up demand; think about that. You have tens of thousands of gun enthusiasts whose primary interest is modern military firearms and all they’ve had to play with for close to two decades is AR’s and AK’s. I got to play with one of the PS90’s at the local gun store and I have to say it’s just plain neat! Would I buy one? Not at the current price and not with the current ammo situation, but I think FN is going to have trouble keeping up with demand for the rest of this year, at least. Just ask Glock about their LE customers. Ask Ford about their LE customers. Glock sells LE kits to LEOs for about $350 a piece (includes 3 std cap mags) versus $475 to civilians (only includes 2 std cap mags). Ford sells the CVPI to PDs at about $19k each. Civilians can select a new CV from $24k to $32k. Springfield and Smith and Wesson have seen their piece of the pie slowly decrease because of Glock. FN, as a large weapons manufacturer, would prefer to sell to military and law enforcement at a smaller profit per weapon because the military customers will buy in large quantities. So far, the military showed very little interest in the P90 and F2000 when FN demo'd the units in SWA. Most of the guys in the know don't like the ballistics of 5.7x28 when they already have 5.56x45 or 9mm. The Rhineland 5.7 AR upper appears to be highly desired in the civilian market. If that picks up, it may help the PS90 owners.

Selling something in high volume at a lower price only makes sense in large markets, which I think the P90 lacks.  Unless you’re suggesting every cop on the job should be carrying one, which I don’t think you are.  You can’t compare Glock or the automakers to this because they are dealing with a large market (every cop in the US) with potential for overflow sales into ancillary markets due to the “the cops/military use it, it must be good” effect in the market place.  Honestly, I don’t think this thing makes much sense for police to begin with.  Please correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t police migrate to the M16 and away form the 9mm subgun because the 5.56 round penetrates less?  And the P90’s forte is what?  The fact that this thing penetrates body armor is hardly a selling point to the vast majority of police administrators.  The P90 has been out for about a decade or better?  If it was going to sweep the market it would have happened by now.  With the PS90 FN has the chance to sell a large volume of guns at a high price, the best of both worlds for a company, gun or otherwise, that’s in business to make money.  They're not so dumb .

I could see the PS90 spike but the whole idea is to get the ammo cost down so you can actually shoot the investment. That would make sense for FN. With enough civilian shooters shooting the thing it would help drive the costs down for training for law enforcement. This would then allow them to purchase the stuff.

The optics problem. I had been thinking about it. I am going to try and not replace the stock optics but if I have to I had wanted to go with a 2X acog compact. However, I am not goign to have a huge amount of cash hanging around for a while after the PS90 SBR and barrel. I had considered maybe getting one of these. Eotech recticle without sitting so high up.

I ordered a triple rail for the P90. The higher the sight sits, the more comfortable to use (for me at least). The standard reflex sight sits about 3.75" above the center of the bore. I'm craning my neck to get a good cheek weld. I mocked up a red dot sight fixture to see if it would be comfortable to use with the rail, and it is easier to use.

I understand that it changes the zero (requires re-adjustment) but luckily we only have 2 choices of ammo: SS195 and SS196/SS197 (the extra 150 fps appears to be insignificant in terms of bullet drop past 50yd).

I too like the higher sight radius but only in certain occasions. I have said before that when I was 12 I started playing paintball till about 18 when I started doing the real thing but the point is that I used to like the stock attacked to the bottom of the pistol grip. It always seemed faster for close range scenarios than the traditional sholder stock. The problem is that if you dont get a good cheak possition with real firearms you lose some control and accuracy.

I agree. I like to wear earplugs and the ear muffs but I can never get the proper cheek weld since the ear muffs keep hitting the shoulder stock. I see people shoot with the muffs but I can't see how they do it. I can only wear earplugs. With a taller sight (or larger sight to bore distance) it's easier to shoot with googles and bulky ear muffs.

People complain about putting optics on top of the carry handle for the ARs, but I actually find it to be more comfortable and faster to use.