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Posted: 12/13/2005 1:23:31 PM EDT
Has anyone had the opportunity to fire one of these? How are they? I had a chance to hold the V53 pistol version of this rifle, and the quality seemed good. How do they compare with the AR concerning accuracy, weight, etc.? And please don't tell me to buy another AR because I'm looking for something different.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 7:34:08 AM EDT
I just bought the V53LS in .223. Looks and works well. I sent the trigger to be worked to Bill Springfield in CO. It's 100% better now. No FTF, accuracy is fine.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:49:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bunn19:
Has anyone had the opportunity to fire one of these? How are they? I had a chance to hold the V53 pistol version of this rifle, and the quality seemed good. How do they compare with the AR concerning accuracy, weight, etc.? And please don't tell me to buy another AR because I'm looking for something different.



I'd like to get one but I have too many other firearms on my wish list already. They are really your only alternative to getting a HK-93. Vector seems to stand behind their products...
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 12:56:56 AM EDT
These are excellent weapons from a great company, however they can't compare to an AR.
They are much heavier, which is a known issue of HK roller delayed weapons. Accuracy will be more than acceptible for a combat weapon, but inferior compared to an AR. The AR is also more durable/reliable than the HK 93/33. If you think that it will be cleaner than an AR, think again. These guns get filthy... Magazines are expensive and not nearly as availible.The HK 33/93 is an excellent 5.56 battle rifle, however its outclassed by the M16/AR15 which is why many of the countries who were using the 33 switched to the M16.

The Navy SEALS used HK 33's in Vietnam for a time until they were replaced accross the board with the M16 as they found it to be superior. I really like the 33, it has excellent sights and accuracy, plus it has reliable 40 round magazines. Its an excellent battle rifle, just not as good as an M16...miles better than a G36 though. I am not an AR zealot, I assure you...it just happens to be the best 5.56 battle rifle on the planet...thats not opinion, its fact. While I support you wanting something different, which is why I own a V93 and a Galil to name a few, I realize they are inferior to the AR but sometimes, they are much more fun. Just know that you won't be getting a better weapon if you buy a V93, but you will have one cool rifle. If you like them, buy one. They are excellent weapons, just don't be delusional.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:22:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 5:19:43 AM EDT
And if you want a super cool 93 type gun, get the pistol, and SBR it.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 8:12:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ryno_the_wyno:
it just happens to be the best 5.56 battle rifle on the planet...thats not opinion, its fact.



Many people consider the best 5.56 battle rifle to be the Sig 55X rifle.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 6:02:31 PM EDT
Actually, thats not entirely accurate...the Sig 55x has lost almost every single competition its ever been entered in to the M16 and once to the G36 in Portugal....which is insane, but thats another story. The only time I am aware of any agency choosing the Sig over the M16 is SOCOM who adopted 552's as a supplement or replacement for the CQBR. The 552 is primarily used as a suppressor platform as its operating system is superior when suppressed as it has more rounds between failures when suppressed than the M4. The SAS recently tested both the 55x and the M16 and chose the SFW by Diemaco...an M16. The Sig 55x is a fine weapon, but is more highly reguarded in America because we can't have them....plus they are cool weapons and the are one of the better assault weapons. The M16 is the professionals choice the world over and judging by the end users all over the world and its battle history, its the best.....which explains why nothing, not even the sig has beat it out for any major contract, even though they have been going head to head for years....I know everyone has an AR and they can be boring, face it...they are the best.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 7:07:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ryno_the_wyno:
The only time I am aware of any agency choosing the Sig over the M16 is SOCOM who adopted 552's as a supplement or replacement for the CQBR.




There's pictures around of DOD personal security types with 552s. I do not know if they were SOCOM affiliated.

That wouldn't be a bad choice, with how finicky some people say the really short AR's are.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 7:20:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 11:36:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2005 11:37:22 PM EDT by Ryno_the_wyno]
Its hard to say if the pics you are refering to are SOCOM personel or not. There is more than one govt agency that uses the 552, not to mention some state agencies. Anyone who has ever shot a suppressed M16 knows how filthy they can get, depending on ammo/can, and this can seriously compromise reliability. Also, short barrel M16's are notorious for being finnicky. The Sig 552 is a marked improvement in both areas.
Suggesting the Daewoo is the best AW is lunacy. While all of the "Asian AR-180's" are good guns, they are by no means world beaters. The Daewoo's are excellent weapons, but they aren't even the best of this "series" of weapons. Both the ST Kinetics and Type 89 are both leaps and bounds better than the Daewoo as they are newer and more refined weapons. The Daewoo served well, however it too has been bested by the M16. The ROK primarily uses M16's rather than thier Daewoo's. The Daewoo's are still in secondary and tertiary service and still used in front line

service with Artillery and Armored units as the folding stock lends itself to compact spaces. This is much the same as what the IDF does with the Galil. Both are the Galil and the Daewoo are great weapons, but they both have been replaced with the M16. If these weapons were better than the M16 they would have never been replaced by an "inferior" weapon at great cost. In the late 70's NATO did a status report on all 5.56 weapons and ammo in the hopes of standardizing both. All of the big players were there, Sig 550, FNC, AK5, Galil, AUG, SA80, HK33 and 41, M16A1 and so on. Out of all these weapons, the M16A1 with the SS109 bullet was found to be the best 5.56

weapon and ammo combo in the world. At this point, we had not yet decided to adopt the A2 and if there was anything better, we would have adopted it or poached the design and made our own weapon. Bottom line, nothing came close...except for the G11, which was too far ahead of its time.
This isn't bias...its fact. The M16 is the BEST...with runner up honors going to the Sig 550.....not a friggin Daewoo. Edited, to challenge notion that Daewoo has AR accuracy. By virtue of its operating system, this just isnt so.....sorry, but your mistaken. Its plenty accurate for a combat weapon, just not more so than an AR.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 4:20:25 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 6:58:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
You're forgetting one of the reasons that foreign governments use M16s so prevalently... they are often FREE in the form of US military aid... or so heavily discounted that it doesn't make sense in light of limited defense dollars to spend scarce money on an indigenous design when the M16 is free or nearly so.




Wrong
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 3:38:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 3:38:59 PM EDT by Ardenner]

Originally Posted By scottryan:

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
You're forgetting one of the reasons that foreign governments use M16s so prevalently... they are often FREE in the form of US military aid... or so heavily discounted that it doesn't make sense in light of limited defense dollars to spend scarce money on an indigenous design when the M16 is free or nearly so.




Wrong



Israel. A friend of mine that served in the IDF for 6 years said when he was in the millitary Israel was getting M16s for $50 a piece, whereas a Galil cost many times that much to produce.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 4:46:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 4:46:27 PM EDT by HK_Shooter_03]

Originally Posted By Ryno_the_wyno:
The AR is also more durable/reliable than the HK 93/33.





Tag
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 6:08:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
Dependability at the range is not the same as in the worst conditions combat can offer. Daewoo has AR accuracy and AK reliability.



I have a daewoo AR100 (pre-ban), their are lightweight and have one of the best folding stocks but it's no AR.....And don't let anyone say that the gas system it uses is so much better or clean, when I got mine it was carboned solid, to the point where I had to soke it in PB blaster and use pliers to work it back and forth for a couple hours while I watched tv.

S.O.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 12:02:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 12:46:43 AM EDT
The IDF received an emergency shipment of weapons and military supplies on the eve of the 6 day war. Included in the shipment were M14's and M16's which were given at no cost to the IDF.
Since then, Israel has contracted with Colt and has been paying market price for thier weapons.
Its certainly more than 50.00 a piece, its closer to 4-500 per rifle, give or take....

The HK33 is an excellent weapon, it is, however less durable and less reliable than an M16.
Again, a weapon cannot break parts it doesn't have. As good as the Galil, HK 33/41, FNC and etc are, they have more parts*which can and WILL break under hard use*. HK roller locking weapons have "wear" parts which must be replaced after so many rounds*probably a few thousand, maybe less* to ensure proper functioning. When was the last time you had to put rollers in your M4? This is not to say that M4's are without flaw. No weapon is. Individual weapons are prone to certain failures, however the frequency or remedy is important when involved in a firefight. Many known weaknesses in the M16 can be fixed by replacing the BC, which can be done as rapidly as

changing a magazine. Equivalent failures in other rifles must be fixed with tools are by armorers both of which cannot be done in battle....these kinds of failures are common and are to be expected under combat condidtions and if you cannot repair them, you will have a club not a rifle.
I don't have a manufacture under my screen name because my loyalty lies with the best, not a brand. Just because one likes a particular weapon doesn't make it the best, just because you like it....it may be the best for you, but its not the best period. I don't know why thats so hard to understand for some people. Conversely, I believe the HK 41 had the potential to be one of the best 5.56 assault weapons had it ever "taken off". It would have surely eclipsed the G36, not thats difficult to do.....I would be interested to hear why you think the HK33 is better, just for conversations sake.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 12:58:12 AM EDT
The Govt gave away much of our surplus weapons to friendly nations. These weapons were made by govt, not private, entities and thus they were able to give them away freely, especially after they had outlived thier usefullness. Thousands of Garands, M1 Carbines and M14's were given away free of charge to friendly nations, however the M16 is made by a private company which isn't in the habit of donating thier products free of charge to equip entire armies. The M16A1's which were given to Israel as a part of emergency military aide were surplus weapons. Israel recently placed an order with Colt for weapons, which they are paying for....just like everyone else.

Hiram Ranger, thats great that you have a degree....but you aren't in any position to challenge
anyone's knowledge based on the idiotic assertions you made about the Daewoo being the best rifle in the world. I guess every American soldier is stupid for not casting down his M4/A2/A4 and picking up an AK....I guess they keep using thier issued weapons even though some units have permitted the use of battlefield pickup AKs....It must be all the kool-aid they are drinking? I guess your degree makes you smarter than our own govt and its soldiers. Maybe the war in Iraq would be better if coalition soldiers were using Daewoos! How many boxtops did it take for your degree anyways?
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 2:06:55 AM EDT
Regardless of anyone's idea of what's the best rifle, the Israelis are buying those M16's with US military aid funds that are required to be spent in the USA. So the contention that the Israelis are paying hard cash, just like anyone, is a bit off. They get a block of US dollars that they can spend how they see fit, but those dollars have to be spent in the USA.

It would be the same as you making Galils in your garage, and your buddy tells you he'll give you two thousand dollars every month to spend in his gunshop.

We don't "give" the Israelis M16's. We give them dollars that have to be spent in the USA. With those dollars (that the US taxpayer funded), they buy alot of stuff. Some of that stuff happens to be M16's.

This arrangement has been covered a million times on the board. They may be paying the going price for an M16, but they're using US taxpayer money to pay it.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 6:25:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 6:27:24 AM EDT by scottryan]
Hiram,

I am waiting for you to give me a comprehisive list of all the countries who use the AR-15 as a primary infantry rifle and how they get them for "free".

So far Israel has been named. You have a long ways to go.



Link Posted: 12/17/2005 7:10:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 7:19:06 AM EDT by HiramRanger]
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 7:16:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 7:21:11 AM EDT by scottryan]

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:

Originally Posted By scottryan:
Hiram,

I am waiting for you to give me a comprehisive list of all the countries who use the AR-15 as a primary infantry rifle and how they get them for "free".

So far Israel has been named. You have a long ways to go.






I didn't say they all got them for free, I said many receive them at a significant discount that makes it in their interest to procure them rather then spend money on an indigenous design. Furthermore, many wish to have compatability with the rifle of their allies for parts distribution and resupply. That does not mean the design is the best in exstence, just that it maximizes utility... You are familiar with the concept of utility right? Seriously, do you have a fucking clue?

I'm not going to do all your work for you, because I have better things to do with my time. If you want databases, sift through the shit yourself... its called research. Something you're probably not capable of beyond the current issue of Soldier of Fortune or Mall Ninja Monthly. So go grab a glass of koolaid and start here.

www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/smallarmship_db.htm

And then dig a little deeper through other sources and find what the US government pays versus what foreign governments pay. Also look for military aid given to any country you are looking at. Buried in some report from the site above is an article which points out the Philipine government received 30,000 M16s at significant discount. So that's two countries now that have been given as examples. You want to know the rest, stop being a lazy ass and go educate yourself.




I have the research. It is you who is spouting general BS and needs to get a clue.

You made general statements about the rifle. You need to back it up. You are not doing any work for me.

I know more about the rifle than you. I never see you contributing in techinal Colt threads about variants of the rifle or other aspects.

Link Posted: 12/17/2005 7:21:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 7:24:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 7:25:34 AM EDT by scottryan]

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
Ohhhh so its out in the open now... its not that I was full of shit on the rifles being provided at a discount, or n some cases for free... We've shown that they indeed have been. Your nose is ben out of shape because somebody dared question the God-like supremacy of the AR platform? LOL... Sit back, have another koolaid, stroke your AR and reassure yourself that there never has been... and never will be... anything superior!



RED: I am not disagreeing on that point. Some do get them for free.

You made general statements that imply the only reason the AR-15 is so widely used because we give them away for free.

We do not give them away for free to most of the contries that use them.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 7:26:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ryno_the_wyno:
The HK33 is an excellent weapon, it is, however less durable and less reliable than an M16.
Again, a weapon cannot break parts it doesn't have. As good as the Galil, HK 33/41, FNC and etc are, they have more parts*which can and WILL break under hard use*. HK roller locking weapons have "wear" parts which must be replaced after so many rounds*probably a few thousand, maybe less* to ensure proper functioning. When was the last time you had to put rollers in your M4? This is not to say that M4's are without flaw. No weapon is. Individual weapons are prone to certain failures, however the frequency or remedy is important when involved in a firefight.



That's !


Do you even own an HK?!?!

Bunn19, please ask this question in the HK forum away from all of this nonsense...

You'll get more accurate answers...


I don't even want to waste my breath to arguing with you Ryno...
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 8:10:56 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 8:40:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2005 8:40:27 AM EDT by scottryan]

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:


You're forgetting one of the reasons that foreign governments use M16s so prevalently... they are often FREE in the form of US military aid.




If you took away all the countries who do not get the M16 for free, the M16 would not be used prevalently.



Link Posted: 12/18/2005 11:41:00 PM EDT
Yes, actually I have own and do own several HK's including a transferable MP5SD and converted 93, just to name a few....in another life I had extensive experience conducting testing and evaluation on military small arms and my statements reflect my experience as an enthusiast and "professional"....The "weaknesses" I mentioned were problems I had "privately" or "publicly" with HK roller weapons....I will also add that HK has lost EVERY American contract for which they entered one of their roller weapons, with the exception of a small contract for the MSG90. Some were so bad we wouldn't even continue thier evaluation, IE the HK23...While the MRBF is sufficiently high for the HK roller weapons, it comes at a cost: worn/broken parts. Bascially, it can run with the M16 however, this is at the cost of broken/worn parts. Again, the M16 doesn't break

parts it doesn' have. If you haven't ever replaced rollers or other components unique to HK roller weapons you must not own an HK or you do and never shoot it...which is a shame, mostly because that would make you a huge poser......Despite the inferiority of its design when compared to the M16, they are excellent weapons and I still maintain the HK41 had the potential to be the new "G3" arming many of the free world militaries.... I think you are perceiving that I feel the HK roller weapons suck...that couldn't be farther from the truth. They are amazing weapons which represent the upper echelon of military small arms....hell, they are so good HK can't even top them.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:41:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bunn19:
Has anyone had the opportunity to fire one of these? How are they? I had a chance to hold the V53 pistol version of this rifle, and the quality seemed good. How do they compare with the AR concerning accuracy, weight, etc.? And please don't tell me to buy another AR because I'm looking for something different.



Did you get your questions answered?
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:57:21 AM EDT
Did I hear another cool aid drinker say the AR platform
is more dependable than the HK33 ?




More accurate,that's a given.
More dependable ?
Once again .....

Link Posted: 1/2/2006 10:14:10 AM EDT
I've actually found my V-93 to be very accurate. Here's a photo of a group I fired from a bench. I used open sights, factory (bad) V-93 trigger and 69 BTHP match ammo.
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