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Posted: 12/12/2005 6:00:34 PM EDT
I'm in the market for some type of 308 semi-auto rifle. It will be used primarily for hog hunting at ranges out to 300 maybe even 400 yards. This rifle will be scoped and I'm willing to spend about $1300 for the rifle alone. I want to buy a quality rifle and will spend a little more if required. I was thinking DPMS AP4, AR10, not very familiar with the FALs or HK variants, or a Springfield Loaded M1A. Any suggestions are welcomed. How would the AR types handle these ranges in a carbine length?
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 7:56:28 PM EDT
If you are more familar with the AR the DPMS would be a good rifle for you. My friend has a DPMS LR .308 24" and it is very accurate. The new DPMS AP4 looks, and feels great but I have yet to shoot it.

The .308 AR is the only .308 that I don't own. I have HK91s FALs and one Springfield M1A.

The M1A is ok, long heavy and makes a better bench/range rifle then a hunting rifle.

The FAL is great, light weight and mags are cheap. My 16" DSA FAL is not as accurate as the M1a or HK91 but it is plenty good for deer hunting.

The HK91 is by far my favorite .308 semi auto. It is heavy, but it works 100% and with a good trigger it is MOA or better. The HK91 has been my #1 deer rifle for the past 11 years.


My advice is go to the gun store and handle a M1A, FAL, HK91 and a DPMS AP4. See which best fits you before you buy. And if you could find a friend that has a .308 rifle and shoot it.
I had a friend who was looking to buy his first .308 rifle for hunting. I let him shoot my .308 rifles but he went out and bought a Armalite AR10 16" because he was use to the M16 action he used in the service.
If your budget is $1,300 the DSA FAL or DPMS AP4 or PTR 91 would be the way to go.

Chris
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 8:09:30 PM EDT
I have a FAL, IM me and if your close you can shoot it all you want(you pay for your ammo) it shoots softer than a m1 or a hk
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 8:21:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2005 8:22:51 PM EDT by FALARAK]
Since you are gonna carry/hunt with it.... you want shorter and lighter. These rifles can get heavy quick.

1. Armalite AR10 A4 carbine.
2. DSA FAL Carbine

The .308 carbines are loud.... real loud.... especially if braked. I would not want to ever shoot them without hearing protection while hunting. Keep that in mind.
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 10:26:53 PM EDT
try them all and go with what you like best.....

for instance, the FAL and the AR10 platforms are excellent buns...but when it comes down to brass tacks I shoot the M1A the best....when it comes to the 5.56 I have used em all and I ALWAYS return to the AR-15.....but other folks have different results


it's what works best for you.....
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 5:57:25 AM EDT
I vote for the FAL. I love mine
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 4:17:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 4:19:11 PM EDT by Ardenner]

Originally Posted By newguy2k3:
I'm in the market for some type of 308 semi-auto rifle. It will be used primarily for hog hunting at ranges out to 300 maybe even 400 yards. This rifle will be scoped and I'm willing to spend about $1300 for the rifle alone. I want to buy a quality rifle and will spend a little more if required. I was thinking DPMS AP4, AR10, not very familiar with the FALs or HK variants, or a Springfield Loaded M1A. Any suggestions are welcomed. How would the AR types handle these ranges in a carbine length?



I would highly recommended a DPMS LR 308 as opposed to the 308 AP4. I have an 18" with collapsible stock and a 4-rail handguards; shoots great. You could get the barrel fluted to reduce weight as well. I think it is sort of silly to get a 16" 308 especially for hunting. At 400 yards I would think you would want a little bit more velocity than a 16" can offer. The added benefit in velocity from 16" to 18" is much greater than from 18" to 20". 16" 308 rifles are intended for CQB (HK G3K, FN SCAR-H, etc). I would order a customized rifle from DPMS. That way you could get the new upper w/forward assist and normal height rail (the LR series have high rail) and a barrel of sufficient length. If needed you could even get a 24" SS barrel cut down to 18" or 19". I have the ACE SOCOM stock on mine; I find the rubber recoil pad to be nice with .308.

ETA - To clarify the DPMS LR comes in 16" bull 18" bull and 24" bull the DPMS AP4 comes in 16" only.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 4:40:46 PM EDT
FAL
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 4:43:33 PM EDT
get a nice bolt action for $600. Only cause I'm developing a soft spot for these things
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 4:58:18 PM EDT
My advice rent or borrow one of each of the rifles your interested in before you buy.

Max
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 5:31:30 AM EDT
I would try them all out if possible first. I was trained on the G3 so I like the HK series rifles. If you want to scope something you would probably be better off looking at the M1A. The M1A also tends to have a much better trigger. Keep in mind the HKs and FALs were designed to be iron sighted battle rifles for the military. They can be scoped but weren't really designed for it. Ive heard enough reliability problems with the various AR type 308 platforms to make me shy away from them. Always something to consider is magazine cost and availability. G3 and FAL(metric) mags are dirt cheap. You will pay considerably more for M14 mags and even more for AR type 308 mags.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 8:09:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 8:10:21 AM EDT by DevL]

Originally Posted By Ardenner:

Originally Posted By newguy2k3:
I'm in the market for some type of 308 semi-auto rifle. It will be used primarily for hog hunting at ranges out to 300 maybe even 400 yards. This rifle will be scoped and I'm willing to spend about $1300 for the rifle alone. I want to buy a quality rifle and will spend a little more if required. I was thinking DPMS AP4, AR10, not very familiar with the FALs or HK variants, or a Springfield Loaded M1A. Any suggestions are welcomed. How would the AR types handle these ranges in a carbine length?



I would highly recommended a DPMS LR 308 as opposed to the 308 AP4. I have an 18" with collapsible stock and a 4-rail handguards; shoots great. You could get the barrel fluted to reduce weight as well. I think it is sort of silly to get a 16" 308 especially for hunting. At 400 yards I would think you would want a little bit more velocity than a 16" can offer. The added benefit in velocity from 16" to 18" is much greater than from 18" to 20". 16" 308 rifles are intended for CQB (HK G3K, FN SCAR-H, etc). I would order a customized rifle from DPMS. That way you could get the new upper w/forward assist and normal height rail (the LR series have high rail) and a barrel of sufficient length. If needed you could even get a 24" SS barrel cut down to 18" or 19". I have the ACE SOCOM stock on mine; I find the rubber recoil pad to be nice with .308.

ETA - To clarify the DPMS LR comes in 16" bull 18" bull and 24" bull the DPMS AP4 comes in 16" only.



I was under the impression the jump from 16" to 20" gained only 100fps. This what people told me in a thread about AR10s when I asked for chrono measurements. I dont think 60fps from 16" to 18" will be a big deal at all. At 400 yards the fps difference will be about 50 fps or so.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 8:48:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:

Originally Posted By Ardenner:

Originally Posted By newguy2k3:
I'm in the market for some type of 308 semi-auto rifle. It will be used primarily for hog hunting at ranges out to 300 maybe even 400 yards. This rifle will be scoped and I'm willing to spend about $1300 for the rifle alone. I want to buy a quality rifle and will spend a little more if required. I was thinking DPMS AP4, AR10, not very familiar with the FALs or HK variants, or a Springfield Loaded M1A. Any suggestions are welcomed. How would the AR types handle these ranges in a carbine length?



I would highly recommended a DPMS LR 308 as opposed to the 308 AP4. I have an 18" with collapsible stock and a 4-rail handguards; shoots great. You could get the barrel fluted to reduce weight as well. I think it is sort of silly to get a 16" 308 especially for hunting. At 400 yards I would think you would want a little bit more velocity than a 16" can offer. The added benefit in velocity from 16" to 18" is much greater than from 18" to 20". 16" 308 rifles are intended for CQB (HK G3K, FN SCAR-H, etc). I would order a customized rifle from DPMS. That way you could get the new upper w/forward assist and normal height rail (the LR series have high rail) and a barrel of sufficient length. If needed you could even get a 24" SS barrel cut down to 18" or 19". I have the ACE SOCOM stock on mine; I find the rubber recoil pad to be nice with .308.

ETA - To clarify the DPMS LR comes in 16" bull 18" bull and 24" bull the DPMS AP4 comes in 16" only.



I was under the impression the jump from 16" to 20" gained only 100fps. This what people told me in a thread about AR10s when I asked for chrono measurements. I dont think 60fps from 16" to 18" will be a big deal at all. At 400 yards the fps difference will be about 50 fps or so.



I agree. He calls a 16" silly, then recommends a 18" ???

For hunting, and shots less than 400yds.... I want it short and light. The MV differences are going to be negligible at those distances.... the ammo differences would likely be a much larger range.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 9:07:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 9:09:02 AM EDT by warlord]

Originally Posted By UZI4you:
The HK91 is by far my favorite .308 semi auto. It is heavy, but it works 100% and with a good trigger it is MOA or better. The HK91 has been my #1 deer rifle for the past 11 years.
.
.
Chris


I would contact Williams triggers
Since your are not using your HK91 for combat, you can lighten up the HK91's 10lb trigger to about 5lb, or so. you can get a set trigger. But I would get a seperate trigger pack.

I had a buddy do trigger job on a Springfield Armory SAR8(HK authorized Greek made HK91-clone), and the difference was night & day.

See here for another opinion of Williams:www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=e84cf80f7e258bdafa63d034e4c07c2e&threadid=128505
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 9:39:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By warlord:

Originally Posted By UZI4you:
The HK91 is by far my favorite .308 semi auto. It is heavy, but it works 100% and with a good trigger it is MOA or better. The HK91 has been my #1 deer rifle for the past 11 years.
.
.
Chris


I would contact Williams triggers
Since your are not using your HK91 for combat, you can lighten up the HK91's 10lb trigger to about 5lb, or so. you can get a set trigger. But I would get a seperate trigger pack.

I had a buddy do trigger job on a Springfield Armory SAR8(HK authorized Greek made HK91-clone), and the difference was night & day.

See here for another opinion of Williams:www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=e84cf80f7e258bdafa63d034e4c07c2e&threadid=128505



Thanks for the heads up, but I already have a Williams Set Trigger. You are right it is night and day.

I have a Williams SET trigger on the HK91 I use for hunting. On set the trigger lets off at 2 pounds and four pounds with out set. It is a lot better than the standard HK factory trigger which is 9 or 10 pounds.

Thanks to the Williams trigger the HK91 is now a MOA shooter or better.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 1:48:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/14/2005 1:48:54 PM EDT by Ardenner]

Originally Posted By FALARAK:

Originally Posted By DevL:

Originally Posted By Ardenner:

Originally Posted By newguy2k3:
I'm in the market for some type of 308 semi-auto rifle. It will be used primarily for hog hunting at ranges out to 300 maybe even 400 yards. This rifle will be scoped and I'm willing to spend about $1300 for the rifle alone. I want to buy a quality rifle and will spend a little more if required. I was thinking DPMS AP4, AR10, not very familiar with the FALs or HK variants, or a Springfield Loaded M1A. Any suggestions are welcomed. How would the AR types handle these ranges in a carbine length?



I would highly recommended a DPMS LR 308 as opposed to the 308 AP4. I have an 18" with collapsible stock and a 4-rail handguards; shoots great. You could get the barrel fluted to reduce weight as well. I think it is sort of silly to get a 16" 308 especially for hunting. At 400 yards I would think you would want a little bit more velocity than a 16" can offer. The added benefit in velocity from 16" to 18" is much greater than from 18" to 20". 16" 308 rifles are intended for CQB (HK G3K, FN SCAR-H, etc). I would order a customized rifle from DPMS. That way you could get the new upper w/forward assist and normal height rail (the LR series have high rail) and a barrel of sufficient length. If needed you could even get a 24" SS barrel cut down to 18" or 19". I have the ACE SOCOM stock on mine; I find the rubber recoil pad to be nice with .308.

ETA - To clarify the DPMS LR comes in 16" bull 18" bull and 24" bull the DPMS AP4 comes in 16" only.



I was under the impression the jump from 16" to 20" gained only 100fps. This what people told me in a thread about AR10s when I asked for chrono measurements. I dont think 60fps from 16" to 18" will be a big deal at all. At 400 yards the fps difference will be about 50 fps or so.



I agree. He calls a 16" silly, then recommends a 18" ???

For hunting, and shots less than 400yds.... I want it short and light. The MV differences are going to be negligible at those distances.... the ammo differences would likely be a much larger range.



I believe there is substantially more MV to be gained from 16" to 20" than 100 fps. There is probably a reason all standard .308 battle rifles have a barrel length of at least 18". Additionally, my understanding is that, typically, for the amount of powder in a .308 cartridge it takes about 18.5" for a complete powder burn. I suppose different powders burn more or less quickly, but is there a powder out there that could achieve a complete burn for .308 in 16”? I suspect, if the answer is yes it is not widely available in commercial ammo. Also, isn’t a complete and even powder burn a component in accuracy (which would be important at 400 yards)? I may be wrong on this but it seems to follow.

The reason I recommend an 18” over a 16” is that DPMS makes barrels for .308 in 16” 18” and 24” SS. I would think an 18” fluted barrel would give overall superior performance to a 16” M4 profile without much added weight. DPMS, in my opinion, is the best value.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 2:13:32 PM EDT
Look up some tests:

Weapons for Law Enformcement magazine Sept. 2005
18" PTR-91 w/ 168 gr. Black Hills .308: 2447 average fps
18" PTR-91A1 w/ 168 gr. Black Hills .308: 2500 average fps
16" PTR-91K w/ 168 gr. Black Hills .308: 2441 average fps,
surprising that the 16" barrel is only 6 fps off the 1st 18" barrel PTR-91

Weapons for Law Enformcement magazine
24" barrel H-S Precision FBI HTR .308 bolt action had an average of 2462-2623 fps with 4 different types of 168 gr. .308, I expected higher velocities than this for a 24" barrel using the same .308 (Black Hills 168) as the other rifles (the Black Hills 168 average fps was 2552)

Weapons for Law Enformcement magazine July 2005
DPMS 16" barrel Panther LR-308T w/ 168 gr. Black Hills .308: 2421 average fps

Weapons for Law Enformcement magazine Oct. 2004
S/A 18" barrel Squad Scout .308 w/ 168 gr. Black Hills .308: 2503 average fps

Guns & Ammo Combat Arms special issue
DSA FAL 16" barrel w/ 168 gr. Black Hills .308: 2504 average fps

What do all these numbers tell us? It seems that using the same ammo and not controlling for other factors (elevation, humidity, temp, etc.) on average you really only lose around a minimum of 6 fps and a maximum of 82 fps going from 18" to 16" given these tests. That's fine by me.

Very interesting data.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 4:09:10 PM EDT
18 in. M1a Scout.Handy,light,and maneuverable while still being more than capable at 400+.The trigger and sights are light years ahead of the Fal or HK and you can't improve theirs to equal it.Use the forward scope mount the scout is equipped with or get a regular scope mount like the Smith or Sadlak.Speaking for myself,the M14 comes up easier and tracks better than a pistol grip equipped rifle .Try a shorty M14,you'll be sold.Also, Iv'e seen the hogs in Texas so i'm only half kidding when I say the M14 has a better bayonet too.
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 6:24:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By hartzpad:
Look up some tests:

Weapons for Law Enformcement magazine Sept. 2005
18" PTR-91 w/ 168 gr. Black Hills .308: 2447 average fps
18" PTR-91A1 w/ 168 gr. Black Hills .308: 2500 average fps
16" PTR-91K w/ 168 gr. Black Hills .308: 2441 average fps,
surprising that the 16" barrel is only 6 fps off the 1st 18" barrel PTR-91

Weapons for Law Enformcement magazine
24" barrel H-S Precision FBI HTR .308 bolt action had an average of 2462-2623 fps with 4 different types of 168 gr. .308, I expected higher velocities than this for a 24" barrel using the same .308 (Black Hills 168) as the other rifles (the Black Hills 168 average fps was 2552)

Weapons for Law Enformcement magazine July 2005
DPMS 16" barrel Panther LR-308T w/ 168 gr. Black Hills .308: 2421 average fps

Weapons for Law Enformcement magazine Oct. 2004
S/A 18" barrel Squad Scout .308 w/ 168 gr. Black Hills .308: 2503 average fps

Guns & Ammo Combat Arms special issue
DSA FAL 16" barrel w/ 168 gr. Black Hills .308: 2504 average fps

What do all these numbers tell us? It seems that using the same ammo and not controlling for other factors (elevation, humidity, temp, etc.) on average you really only lose around a minimum of 6 fps and a maximum of 82 fps going from 18" to 16" given these tests. That's fine by me.

Very interesting data.



Interesting indeed. I wonder if accuracy is affected as a result of incomplete/uneven powder burn in the shorter barrels?
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 11:34:27 PM EDT
I dont' own a M1A, only held them before. They come up nice and the sights are a dream but for the price of a good M1A, you could get a real HK-91... and for a low end M1A you can get a good HK-91 clone (PTR91). I do however have a HK and the only thing more I could ask for in a semi auto .308 would be a bolt hold open... but I can live without it.
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