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Posted: 10/29/2005 7:43:04 AM EDT
.30 caliber carbine: 110 grains @ 1860 FPS

5.7mm SSwhatever: 31 grains @ 2100 FPS

Which one of these can be expected to do more damage to the Bad Guy?
Link Posted: 10/29/2005 8:50:40 AM EDT
If its just joe gangbanger, than the .30 carbine


But if joe is toting body armor, then the 5.7
Link Posted: 10/29/2005 9:10:20 AM EDT
I wouldn't want to be the recipient of either.
Link Posted: 10/29/2005 9:12:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/29/2005 11:53:16 AM EDT
Depends on what is hit. An arm wound with a 308 is less lethal than a heart hit with a 9mm.
Link Posted: 10/29/2005 2:07:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SirDrinksAlot:
If its just joe gangbanger, than the .30 carbine


But if joe is toting body armor, then the 5.7



.30 Carbine can penetrate Level III armor.
Link Posted: 10/29/2005 2:51:25 PM EDT
I recently aquired an M-1 Carbine and it is now my home defence gun.

So, I was pondering ammo choice: hollow-point for maximized tissue damage, or FMJ for body-armor penetration.
Link Posted: 10/29/2005 4:28:02 PM EDT
If I was unsure which load to use I would load alternate FMJ and hollowpoint rounds in the same mag. Then I would use double taps for intruders. Charles.
Link Posted: 10/29/2005 4:35:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
I recently aquired an M-1 Carbine and it is now my home defence gun.

So, I was pondering ammo choice: hollow-point for maximized tissue damage, or FMJ for body-armor penetration.



www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000084

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Justin
Link Posted: 10/29/2005 7:53:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:

Originally Posted By SirDrinksAlot:
If its just joe gangbanger, than the .30 carbine


But if joe is toting body armor, then the 5.7



.30 Carbine can penetrate Level III armor.



thats a new one to me
Link Posted: 10/29/2005 8:57:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SirDrinksAlot:
If its just joe gangbanger, than the .30 carbine


But if joe is toting body armor, then the 5.7



Exactly.
Link Posted: 10/29/2005 9:16:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
I recently aquired an M-1 Carbine and it is now my home defence gun.

So, I was pondering ammo choice: hollow-point for maximized tissue damage, or FMJ for body-armor penetration.



www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000084

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Justin



Justin,
Posting factual information from recognised experts is no way to get ahead here. The bag guy will shit his pants and run away from just the sound of a 5.7 chambering a round.

Seriously the 5.7 offers 22mag like ballistics. Whereas the 110Gn 30Carbine JSP is as good or better than most 5.56mm loads. everyone should red the link Justin posted BTW.
Link Posted: 10/30/2005 2:27:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:


www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000084

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Justin


Good info there, thanks.
Link Posted: 10/30/2005 2:37:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
I recently aquired an M-1 Carbine and it is now my home defence gun.

So, I was pondering ammo choice: hollow-point for maximized tissue damage, or FMJ for body-armor penetration.



www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000084

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Justin



Justin,
Posting factual information from recognised experts is no way to get ahead here. The bag guy will shit his pants and run away from just the sound of a 5.7 chambering a round.

Seriously the 5.7 offers 22mag like ballistics. Whereas the 110Gn 30Carbine JSP is as good or better than most 5.56mm loads. everyone should red the link Justin posted BTW.



Good stuff in the link. I really need to get an ultimak and put an aimpoint on mine.
Link Posted: 10/30/2005 2:47:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/30/2005 4:03:12 AM EDT
First of all .30 carbine round will be stopped by lvl III hard armor. Lvl IIIa armor is soft and is not rated for it but would probably stop it but their would be a greater chance of blunt trama.

The five seven has a very short list of known shootings. In every case exept the ricoche that turned into a leg wound, the person has died very quickly with very few rounds. The bullet design is what hails the wounding balistics in this case.
Link Posted: 10/30/2005 4:35:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/30/2005 4:36:12 AM EDT by CitySlicker]

Originally Posted By KogaShuko:
First of all .30 carbine round will be stopped by lvl III hard armor. Lvl IIIa armor is soft and is not rated for it but would probably stop it but their would be a greater chance of blunt trama.

The five seven has a very short list of known shootings. In every case exept the ricoche that turned into a leg wound, the person has died very quickly with very few rounds. The bullet design is what hails the wounding balistics in this case.



KogaShuko
,

I use the terms 'Level III' and 'Level IIIA' interchangably as I usually refer to Level III hard armor as Level III+. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

As far as Level IIIA "probably" defeating .30 Carbine, you are mistaken. Did you read the link?


Originally Posted By DocGKR:

The best ammunition choice for the M1 Carbine is the Remington 110 gr JSP (R30CAR)—at an average velocity of 1864 f/s, it expands to .54” to .58” and penetrates 13” to 16” whether in bare gelatin, through automobile windshields, or Level IIIa body armor.



Don't take this the wrong way, but posting erroneous advice can get people killed.


AR15fan,

Isn't this ironic.
Link Posted: 10/30/2005 5:11:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:

Originally Posted By KogaShuko:
First of all .30 carbine round will be stopped by lvl III hard armor. Lvl IIIa armor is soft and is not rated for it but would probably stop it but their would be a greater chance of blunt trama.

The five seven has a very short list of known shootings. In every case exept the ricoche that turned into a leg wound, the person has died very quickly with very few rounds. The bullet design is what hails the wounding balistics in this case.



KogaShuko
,

I use the terms 'Level III' and 'Level IIIA' interchangably as I usually refer to Level III hard armor as Level III+. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

As far as Level IIIA "probably" defeating .30 Carbine, you are mistaken. Did you read the link?


Originally Posted By DocGKR:

The best ammunition choice for the M1 Carbine is the Remington 110 gr JSP (R30CAR)—at an average velocity of 1864 f/s, it expands to .54” to .58” and penetrates 13” to 16” whether in bare gelatin, through automobile windshields, or Level IIIa body armor.



Don't take this the wrong way, but posting erroneous advice can get people killed.


AR15fan,

Isn't this ironic.



Or put in jail, or blown up...


Please use your best judgement when dealing with potentially sensitive information here.

Link Posted: 10/30/2005 7:35:41 AM EDT
Great link CitySlicker!
Link Posted: 10/30/2005 5:13:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/30/2005 8:15:39 PM EDT by AyeGuy]
error
Link Posted: 10/30/2005 5:41:38 PM EDT
Seeing as how I am a poor college student, for SHTF/HD I must rely on the only rifle I own.
A 1943 Inland M1 carbine passed down to me by my grandfather.

I have made great attempt to learn its true potential - most of the info surrounding the .30 carbine round is gun shop BS.

The .30 carbine round is a very potent round - as you saw above it can defeat level III soft armor, and still do damage when it gets through, unlike the 5.7 which as AR15fan pointed out, offers .22 mag performance.

A .30 carbine loaded with federal softpoints is a great load for homedefense against almost any scenario.
Link Posted: 10/30/2005 7:07:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/30/2005 7:13:02 PM EDT by pillbox]
I really like the M1 carbine, and have owned 7 of them over the years, and have even carried them on duty/killed deer with them...but why are you comparing a 18" barrel carbine against a 4.8" pistol?
It would be a better question to say .30 M1 VS. Rhineland AR57 or FN PS90. Then it would be SS "whatever" at @ 2650 FPS
One dont have to like it(5.7)..just make the question relevant. carbine VS. carbine

Here is my favorite 1943 Underwood, "B" stamp
Link Posted: 10/30/2005 8:15:10 PM EDT
CORRECTION:

.30 caliber carbine: 110 grains @ 1860 FPS

5.7mm SSwhatever: 31 grains @ 2650 FPS

*****

sorry for the error

I meant to compare Carbine to P-90/5.7 AR
Link Posted: 10/30/2005 8:43:26 PM EDT
The 5.7 was marginal at best before they stopped importing the good ammo; the stuff they import now isn't much when compared to the old SS192- which wasn't much to begin with.

Some Canucks took the 10MM and necked it to .30 cal. They got M1 Carbine ballistics out of a Glock 20.
Link Posted: 10/30/2005 8:44:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/30/2005 9:26:03 PM EDT by Combat_Jack]

Originally Posted By SGB:

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
I recently aquired an M-1 Carbine and it is now my home defence gun.

So, I was pondering ammo choice: hollow-point for maximized tissue damage, or FMJ for body-armor penetration.



Unless you're dealing drugs I doubt you'll have much reason to repel body armor clad home invaders.



Phoenix has had some problems with up to 9 man home invasions, all wearing full tac gear. I can only presume that body armor was part of their gear.
Link Posted: 10/30/2005 8:54:38 PM EDT
Both will cause leaking holes that could be fatal
Link Posted: 10/30/2005 10:27:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/30/2005 10:27:49 PM EDT by ALPHAGHOST]
30. carbine


300fps less, ~4 times the weight
Link Posted: 10/31/2005 4:02:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/31/2005 4:19:17 AM EDT by pillbox]
Combat Jack..just to bring you up to speed , SS195LF is the replacement to SS192 and is the same except for a lead free primer and is made in the U.S. by Fiocci
SS196 is the reduced velocity round (1650fps)made to make the antis happy, as it will not penetrate a LII vest and is is soon to be dropped for the SS197...40gr V-Max bullet @2000 out of a pistol barrel.
There are other loads coming to take better advantage of the carbine and bolt action guns coming out. Here no matter how fast the .224 bullet of the 5.7 is driven it is still a .22 magnum to somebody hmmmmm lol at 2650fps like a AR57..this .22 magnum must be pretty good, Im gonna have to stop by wally world and get one.
Link Posted: 10/31/2005 4:21:39 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 10/31/2005 5:01:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
The 5.7 was marginal at best before they stopped importing the good ammo; the stuff they import now isn't much when compared to the old SS192- which wasn't much to begin with.

Some Canucks took the 10MM and necked it to .30 cal. They got M1 Carbine ballistics out of a Glock 20.



At what bullet weights?
Link Posted: 10/31/2005 6:57:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
The 5.7 was marginal at best before they stopped importing the good ammo; the stuff they import now isn't much when compared to the old SS192- which wasn't much to begin with.

Some Canucks took the 10MM and necked it to .30 cal. They got M1 Carbine ballistics out of a Glock 20.



At what bullet weights?



110. I found the website in a random search at 3 AM, and haven't seen it since. It was some B.C. competition shooters. Glock Talk might have some info, but that place is a circus, so I don't visit often.
Link Posted: 10/31/2005 8:12:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By CitySlicker:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
The 5.7 was marginal at best before they stopped importing the good ammo; the stuff they import now isn't much when compared to the old SS192- which wasn't much to begin with.

Some Canucks took the 10MM and necked it to .30 cal. They got M1 Carbine ballistics out of a Glock 20.



At what bullet weights?



110. I found the website in a random search at 3 AM, and haven't seen it since. It was some B.C. competition shooters. Glock Talk might have some info, but that place is a circus, so I don't visit often.



If you find that web site again, please let me know.

Do you remember the search terms?

Thanks Seth.

Regards,

Justin
Link Posted: 10/31/2005 9:45:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/31/2005 9:59:27 AM EDT by DmL5]

Originally Posted By AyeGuy:
.30 caliber carbine: 110 grains @ 1860 FPS

5.7mm SSwhatever: 31 grains @ 2100 FPS

Which one of these can be expected to do more damage to the Bad Guy?



.30 caliber carbine: 110 grains @ 1850 FPS

5.7mm SS195: 29 grains @ 2750 FPS

5.7mm SS197: 40 grains @ 2600 FPS


-DmL
Link Posted: 10/31/2005 9:58:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/31/2005 11:39:56 AM EDT by DmL5]

Seriously the 5.7 offers 22mag like ballistics.




22 Magnum: 40 grains @ 1900 FPS, 24 inch barrel

5.7mm SS197: 40 grains @ 2600 FPS, 16 inch barrel


-DmL
Link Posted: 10/31/2005 10:01:15 AM EDT
It's been such a long time that I can't remember any of the details. Sorry.
Link Posted: 10/31/2005 10:04:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/31/2005 1:09:03 PM EDT by DmL5]

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
30. carbine


300fps less, ~4 times the weight



No. The .30 carbine is 750 fps less velocity, and 2.75 times the weight of the 5.7x28 using the SS197. Using the SS195 it is 850 fps less velocity and 3.8 times the weight. Using either 5.7x28 cartridge for the comparison, your post is completely inaccurate.


-DmL
Link Posted: 10/31/2005 10:26:58 AM EDT
A .22 Mag will drop a deer dead. I can't say how I know.

I think that the M1 carbine is underrated. It has been overtaken by modern technology. However, many people place too much emphasis on GEAR. If all a person has is an M1 carbine, he is by no means unarmed.
Link Posted: 10/31/2005 10:35:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/31/2005 10:35:51 AM EDT by Combat_Jack]

Originally Posted By rock71:
A .22 Mag will drop a deer dead. I can't say how I know.

I think that the M1 carbine is underrated. It has been overtaken by modern technology. However, many people place too much emphasis on GEAR. If all a person has is an M1 carbine, he is by no means unarmed.



A brick will kill a deer. Do I have an LBV loaded with bricks? Not exactly.

But yes, the M1 will work.
Link Posted: 11/1/2005 6:32:27 AM EDT

Phoenix has had some problems with up to 9 man home invasions, all wearing full tac gear. I can only presume that body armor was part of their gear.


Sounds like the 12 guage would come up a little short. I would want nothing less than a AR in this situation. A P90 would also be nice due to the 50 rounds and low recoil. At close ranges like within a house, headshots should not be an issue with a carbine like a p90.
Link Posted: 11/1/2005 9:09:11 AM EDT
Police impersonation raids are nothing new. Few people are aware of how common they actually are though. Usually they go after only drug dealers, but that's not saying they don't make exceptions. The well developed groups are not short on equipment.

With that said, I'd rather not be shot by either.
Link Posted: 11/1/2005 9:31:16 AM EDT
I personally think .30 carbine is under rated. I also think that both calibers have fairly narrow performance envelopes - they are compromise cartridges. That's not a criticism, within their particular uses, they do pretty good.

That said, if terminal ballistics of .30 were that much better, I would expect some higher rates of adoption. I realize the primary platform is dated, and to some extent non-economic. But, if within the constraints of design, .30 cal offered that much more, someone besides Israel (where the .30 has logistical and operational advantages) would have moved the design along. Interesting designs, but the Hezi SM1 and the Magal are evolutionary dead ends.

I think on some theoretical level, .30 carbine has the edge. But theres more to the package than merely muzzle energy. Practically, as born out by its adoption by plenty of top tier users, 5.7x28 does everything it needs to do and more.

Could someone post a comparison of ME for like barrle lengths .22WMR and 5.7x28? I keep reading the purported similarity, but from what little I found published, its not correct.

Thx
Alac
Link Posted: 11/1/2005 9:48:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/1/2005 9:57:52 AM EDT by DmL5]
Here it is Alacrity, out of rifle barrels. The 5.7x28 produces basically twice the ME of the .22 WMR despite being fired out of a barrel 8 inches shorter.

22 Magnum out of 24 inch barrel = 320 ft. lbs (40 grains @ 1900 fps)

5.7mm SS197 out of 16 inch barrel = 600 ft. lbs (40 grains @ 2600 fps)

5.7mm SS190 out of 16 inch barrel = 520 ft. lbs (31 grains @ 2750 fps)



-DmL
Link Posted: 11/1/2005 9:50:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/1/2005 9:57:07 AM EDT by DmL5]
Pistol barrels. Once again the 5.7x28 is far ahead.

22 Magnum out of 4 inch barrel = 185 ft. lbs (40 grains @ 1450 fps)

5.7mm SS197 out of 5 inch barrel = 355 ft. lbs (40 grains @ 2000 fps)

5.7mm SS190 out of 5 inch barrel = 320 ft. lbs (31 grains @ 2150 fps)



-DmL
Link Posted: 11/1/2005 12:15:32 PM EDT
Tissue disruption, not energy transfer, kills people.
Link Posted: 11/1/2005 12:36:09 PM EDT
I never said otherwise, nor was I by any means the first in this thread to compare the bullet weights/velocities of two different bullets, so it's funny how I was the first one to get that reply. But anyway, those who compare the two say they are similar ballistically, making no statement about tissue. In the meantime, it is the same case when the 5.7x28 and .22 WMR are compared in terms of tissue disruption.


-DmL
Link Posted: 11/1/2005 12:42:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DmL5:
I never said otherwise, nor was I by any means the first in this thread to compare the bullet weights/velocities of two different bullets, so it's funny how I was the first one to get that reply. But anyway, those who compare the two say they are similar ballistically, making no statement about tissue. In the meantime, it is the same case when the 5.7x28 and .22 WMR are compared in terms of tissue disruption.


-DmL



You make a good point. Once day maybe we will get away from the notion that bullet weight has a direct effect on lethality.

As for the .22 Mag. statements, they are false. The 5.7 is more effective, due to its longer length and tumbling.

That said, 5.7 and .30 Carbine are both submachine gun cartridges, and do OK within certain constraints.


Link Posted: 11/1/2005 4:44:54 PM EDT
Tell ya what, go down range 100 yards and let someone shoot you one time with each and come back with a report on your findings.
Link Posted: 11/1/2005 7:11:54 PM EDT








Hmmm yeh they look real simmilar... yeh.

5.7 longer and clearly does more damage durring tumble. Not to mention it explodes in some cases. The 22magnum is almost like a BB and if it does turn at all it is the same length as it is wide.
Link Posted: 11/1/2005 8:16:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/1/2005 8:20:24 PM EDT by AyeGuy]

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Tissue disruption, not energy transfer, kills people.



Yup, F=MVsquared doesn't tell the WHOLE story...

But wasn't the 5.7 specifically designed NOT to fragment?

Bullets can be Armor-Piercing or Fragmenting but rarely both...

So the question remains...which is more LETHAL...
Link Posted: 11/1/2005 8:24:28 PM EDT
getting hit with either will fucking hurt
Link Posted: 11/1/2005 8:25:57 PM EDT
All I can say is...use BIG mags. The more rounds the merrier.
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