Quoted: First Place: HK XM-8 & G36 by association Bullshit marketing at it's best... HK outright lies by saying that the XM-8 can do certain things that the AR can't, when the AR *CAN* do those exact things (like swap uppers)... Also, the entire contention that a floating short-stroke piston action is superior to the AR-style direct-gas system is , that's a whole 'nother thread, though... Runners Up: M14 and AK47

Thank you.

Next topic.  

Steyr Scout Rifle. Jeff Cooper can think of some great guns but the scout was not worth its asking price

Quoted: Over - M14 Under - Galil One of my Norinco AKs has almost 10,000 thru it. I'll let you know when and if I ever clean it. With a kobra sight on it I would grab it before any of my AR's if I knew I wouldn't be able to clean my AR after a couple hundred rounds.

After saying that I think I would clean my norinco...

Over - That Robinson arms gun that supposedly is over in Iraq ( I didnt see one until I came back and picked up shotgun news.)

Under - WASR's, shoots and cycles just as good as any other AK.

Quoted: The inline stock & PG are the one thing MISSING from the M-14. I've never shot a match with the AR's stock on top of my shoulder, either, although I've seen folks do it... The fact is, the old-fashioned hunting rifle stock provides the worst ergonomics possible... From the odd angle of the 'grip' section, to the fact that by placing the stock below the bore axis, muzzle flip is enhanced...

The AR-15 ergs are flat out poor. The only advantage is the lack of moment arm due to the in line stock.  

Quoted: If the M14 was so superior, NRA folks would actually still use them... Very few do...

The '14 is inferior in just about every other way, at least as a target rifle. I use the AR in competition myself. The ergs suck, other than that it rocks. And it isn't just me--last match one of the High Masters was talking about AR egrs, and pointing out that if you could combine AR mechanicals with '14 ergs it would be perfect. Even Glen Zediker's book "The Compatitive AR-15: The Mouse that Roared" points out the advantages of '14 ergs.

Quoted: The AR also happens to position itself just perfect for mounting optics, due to the high-over-bore sights...

Like the unfortunate pistol grip, the high sights are poor ergs that were built into the design to obtain the in-line stock design.  Of course, the fact that you are force to use a higher sight axis is an advantage with scope mounting, particularly with big lenses.

Quoted: Physics would contradict you there... Metal SHRINKS in the cold, it doesn't expand...

Who said anything about metal expanding?

Corbic got it right in his post above.

Quoted: Quoted: The inline stock & PG are the one thing MISSING from the M-14. I've never shot a match with the AR's stock on top of my shoulder, either, although I've seen folks do it... The fact is, the old-fashioned hunting rifle stock provides the worst ergonomics possible... From the odd angle of the 'grip' section, to the fact that by placing the stock below the bore axis, muzzle flip is enhanced... The AR-15 ergs are flat out poor. The only advantage is the lack of moment arm due to the in line stock.   Quoted: If the M14 was so superior, NRA folks would actually still use them... Very few do... The '14 is inferior in just about every other way, at least as a target rifle. I use the AR in competition myself. The ergs suck, other than that it rocks. And it isn't just me--last match one of the High Masters was talking about AR egrs, and pointing out that if you could combine AR mechanicals with '14 ergs it would be perfect. Even Glen Zediker's book "The Compatitive AR-15: The Mouse that Roared" points out the advantages of '14 ergs. Quoted: The AR also happens to position itself just perfect for mounting optics, due to the high-over-bore sights... Like the unfortunate pistol grip, the high sights are poor ergs that were built into the design to obtain the in-line stock design.  Of course, the fact that you are force to use a higher sight axis is an advantage with scope mounting, particularly with big lenses.

Of course, I'm basing my statements not on science, but my personal experience.... I got started in rifle shooting with the AR, so for me *any* gooseneck stock feels wierd, and all my guns have high sights....

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The inline stock & PG are the one thing MISSING from the M-14. I've never shot a match with the AR's stock on top of my shoulder, either, although I've seen folks do it... The fact is, the old-fashioned hunting rifle stock provides the worst ergonomics possible... From the odd angle of the 'grip' section, to the fact that by placing the stock below the bore axis, muzzle flip is enhanced... The AR-15 ergs are flat out poor. The only advantage is the lack of moment arm due to the in line stock.   Quoted: If the M14 was so superior, NRA folks would actually still use them... Very few do... The '14 is inferior in just about every other way, at least as a target rifle. I use the AR in competition myself. The ergs suck, other than that it rocks. And it isn't just me--last match one of the High Masters was talking about AR egrs, and pointing out that if you could combine AR mechanicals with '14 ergs it would be perfect. Even Glen Zediker's book "The Compatitive AR-15: The Mouse that Roared" points out the advantages of '14 ergs. Quoted: The AR also happens to position itself just perfect for mounting optics, due to the high-over-bore sights... Like the unfortunate pistol grip, the high sights are poor ergs that were built into the design to obtain the in-line stock design.  Of course, the fact that you are force to use a higher sight axis is an advantage with scope mounting, particularly with big lenses. Of course, I'm basing my statements not on science, but my personal experience.... I got started in rifle shooting with the AR, so for me *any* gooseneck stock feels wierd, and all my guns have high sights....

I might start a poll on this in the competition forum. I've heard a lot of Highpower types who otherwise like the AR complain about ergs. You can't hold it the same way as the '14, with the high elbow and it pulled into the "pocket" in your arm. You don't have too, due to the light recoil. You can even put the butt on the top of your sholder.

Don't get me wrong. I love the AR. It's my favorite rifle. I wouldn't want to go back to my M1 for competition. But the M1 does have its advantages.

Most overrated: Anything in that damn .17HMR caliber.......so tired of hearing about them in the mags.

+1 +1 +1 !!!!

Quoted: Most overrated: Anything in that damn .17HMR caliber.......so tired of hearing about them in the mags. +1 +1 +1 !!!!

Lol... long live .22lr.

ergs depend on how you use the weapon.  Maybe in High Power it does but not in CQB.  The AKs are poor ergs for CQB.  Try taking the safety off as your coming up on target!  Mag changes are another part of ergs.

Overrated:
H&K
AK47 ( underpowered .30-30 class cartridge in a rifle not as accurate as a Win94 )

Underrated
Mosin-Nagant
Savage bolt guns
anything in 6.5x55

wganz
¶




Day #12 awaiting on my Team Membership to be processed.

Quoted: Most overrated: Anything in that damn .17HMR caliber.......so tired of hearing about them in the mags. +1 +1 +1 !!!!

Never spent much time with the round have you?  If you did you'd change your mind.  It's an amazing cartridge.  -1 -1 -1 -1...there, you've been countered!

On another note, I wanted to add another overrated rifle - The Beretta Storm.  I shot one today.  Talk about a boring waste of a lot of money!  I didn't like it one bit.  I kept think why in the world would somebody dish out so much money for a 9mm handgun with a long barrel.  At least my Kel Tec Sub2000 folds in half and costs half the price!

Overrated:  I would have to say the M14 and the M1911.  

I've never understood the fascination with the M14.  Yes, it looks cool and yes politics played a big part in its end (as well as creation), but, as a rifle, is it really the end all and be all of rifles?   Is there anything really objectively better (as opposed to perfectly legitimate preference) about it for general issue military use over the FAL/G3?    

For the M1911, yes it's a good pistol, but I've fired them enough and I don't see what makes it stratospherically better as a design than, say a BHP or CZ-75 (leaving the caliber issue aside).  


Underrated: I agree on the Mosin Nagant.   Great rifle.  Not better than (only "as good as") the Mauser 98 as a combat arm in my opnion and inferior as a design (look at rifle design history, and the number of manufacturers trying to make something similar to the 98).  Still a great design and a sub-$100 steal!


Finally, about those HKs.....  I definitely like the FAL better as a weapon over the G3, but would love to own an FN or HK made sample of either (this is ignoring the stratospheric US prices for G3s, which is irrelevant in my ratings of a rifle).   I've fired the HK94 and it is really the easiest gun I've ever shot, and I definitely understand why for certain uses it's the king.

I also now a LEO friend of mine who went to Quantico for a LE weapons demo.   He shot the PSG-1, and claims that all his 5 shots could be covered by a quarter at 300yds (Fed. 168gr. match].   He also claims that an FBI HRT dude who was shooting his issue gun at the same time consistently got all of his 600 yard shots into the "head" area of the B-16 silhouette target.   hock.gif

There's really nothing magical about this - the standard for good sniper rifles is sub-MOA  (measured in 10 round groups, over the course of several days) - that is, 1.5" at 300 and 3" at 600.  A well made sniper rifle in the $3-$5K range will be just as accurate.  The difference with teh PSG is that it's semi auto and because of its [high!] weight and ergonomics, shooting the thing is basically like shooting off a bench.   A VERY specialized weapon - stellar for certain things, awful for others.   But, you do get something for your $15K investment..........

Quoted: Quoted: It is like putting a four cylinder in a Hummvee. Nothing wrong with that so long as it's the -right- 4 cylinder.  After all, largest truck engine caterpillar makes only has 6 cylinders...

But the cyclinders are the size of a trash barrel

Most overated?  Colt ARs!

Overrated - M2 (aka Ma duce) if you believe the legends you would think this thing could be shot travel all the way around the earth and have the bullet hit the person that shot it several seconds after firing. This is of course after traveling or should I say tumbling through 400 houses on the way around.

Under rated - cyberdyne systems second generation double helix plasma rifle. Fully capable of taking out targets as far away as the moon with the right optics. Sorry the optics are restricted items only so you'll most likely never get the full use the full capability of the rifle. Might as well smack a Simmons or BSA on there instead. This rifle has proved to be particularly effective against tanks with reactive armor causing the armor to implode towards the interior. Also, with the correct optics it will take down any and all currently produced helicopters. In the hands of the right shooter it will take out stealth aircraft using radio telemetry marking the flight path and on board electronics determine the required lead.

Quoted: Under rated - cyberdyne systems second generation double helix plasma rifle. Fully capable of taking out targets as far away as the moon with the right optics. Sorry the optics are restricted items only so you'll most likely never get the full use the full capability of the rifle. Might as well smack a Simmons or BSA on there instead. This rifle has proved to be particularly effective against tanks with reactive armor causing the armor to implode towards the interior. Also, with the correct optics it will take down any and all currently produced helicopters. In the hands of the right shooter it will take out stealth aircraft using radio telemetry marking the flight path and on board electronics determine the required lead.

Can I get one of those Double-Helix Plasma Rifles at Wal-Wart? And how much does the ammo go for?

Quoted: Quoted: Under rated - cyberdyne systems second generation double helix plasma rifle. Fully capable of taking out targets as far away as the moon with the right optics. Sorry the optics are restricted items only so you'll most likely never get the full use the full capability of the rifle. Might as well smack a Simmons or BSA on there instead. This rifle has proved to be particularly effective against tanks with reactive armor causing the armor to implode towards the interior. Also, with the correct optics it will take down any and all currently produced helicopters. In the hands of the right shooter it will take out stealth aircraft using radio telemetry marking the flight path and on board electronics determine the required lead. Can I get one of those Double-Helix Plasma Rifles at Wal-Wart? And how much does the ammo go for?

I think joeken and hesse sell reciever flats for those, you can bend them and use the somali parts kits to build your own.

Insane misinformation. Anyone who thinks the Mosin is a copy of the Mauser is off their friggen rocker, and has obviously never owned or played with one. Commonality ends at being bolt action.

Oh, and the Arisaka action is much stronger than a German Mauser. One of the strongest actions ever made, actually.


My nominations?

As far as on ARFCOM, the AK is severely underrated. People make it to be a terrible piece of equipment; the functional differences are oh-so-slight. I don't know many people that would consider themselves undergunned with an AK. Functionally synonymous; of the Spetz keep it, it's fine.

Overrated? Any HK stuff. It's just pricey.

Over rated-G3 and FAL
Under rated-  M-14 at least around here,and Savage bolt guns
The savage is every bit as capable as the remington at half the price but if you build one up people think your wasting your time.Having shot the FAL and M-14/M1a I can say that the M14 is in my mind the absolute apex of battle rifle design.Vastly superior sights,ergonomics, stone reliability in all conditions.Don't get me wrong,the FAL is good but to say the U.S. should have adopted it is ridiculous. Oh, and the M-14 was not replaced because of any shortcomings but because of a change in tactics, the spray and pray mentality born of people who believed that technology could replace a well trained rifleman.It is still in service with units that have rediscovered it so to speak, happily  going about doing what it was designed to do, blissfully unaware of the fact that it is "inferior and outdated"

Quoted: Over rated-G3 and FAL Under rated-  M-14 at least around here,and Savage bolt guns The savage is every bit as capable as the remington at half the price but if you build one up people think your wasting your time.Having shot the FAL and M-14/M1a I can say that the M14 is in my mind the absolute apex of battle rifle design.Vastly superior sights,ergonomics, stone reliability in all conditions.Don't get me wrong,the FAL is good but to say the U.S. should have adopted it is ridiculous. Oh, and the M-14 was not replaced because of any shortcomings but because of a change in tactics, the spray and pray mentality born of people who believed that technology could replace a well trained rifleman.It is still in service with units that have rediscovered it so to speak, happily  going about doing what it was designed to do, blissfully unaware of the fact that it is "inferior and outdated"

I love my FAL, but I have to say +1

Well put, Mad.  IMHO the iron sights on the Garand/M1a are the finest ever fielded by any army.  The M16A1 iron sights are pitiful in comparison, as are the flimsy HK turret sights.

The most overrated is the M1 Garand. Don't get me wrong, I respect the M1, and it was the best available in its time, but is very dated. I get so sick of people saying that it is STILL the best rifle ever made, they would rather have one than an M16 if they were going to Iraq, blah, blah, blah.

The most underrated is the Galil. Israel took a tough, reliable design that was economical to produce(the AK) and fixed most of its flaws. Better trigger, better sights, better mag release, and a better cartridge.

HK products are not overrated, they may be way overpriced, but they are not overrated..

Quoted: The most overrated is the M1 Garand. Don't get me wrong, I respect the M1, and it was the best available in its time, but is very dated. I get so sick of people saying that it is STILL the best rifle ever made, they would rather have one than an M16 if they were going to Iraq, blah, blah, blah. The most underrated is the Galil. Israel took a tough, reliable design that was economical to produce(the AK) and fixed most of its flaws. Better trigger, better sights, better mag release, and a better cartridge.

Galil is VERY over-rated. Its expensive, heavy, and only offers the worst qualities of an M16 and AK-57 with none of the benifits. There is a reason why the Isrealis use M-16s and not Gailils.

Quoted: Quoted: The most overrated is the M1 Garand. Don't get me wrong, I respect the M1, and it was the best available in its time, but is very dated. I get so sick of people saying that it is STILL the best rifle ever made, they would rather have one than an M16 if they were going to Iraq, blah, blah, blah. The most underrated is the Galil. Israel took a tough, reliable design that was economical to produce(the AK) and fixed most of its flaws. Better trigger, better sights, better mag release, and a better cartridge. Galil is VERY over-rated. Its expensive, heavy, and only offers the worst qualities of an M16 and AK-57 with none of the benifits. There is a reason why the Isrealis use M-16s and not Gailils.

How ya figure?

Yes, a civilian legal Galil is too damn expensive to buy. Our cost has nothing to due with production costs, and everything to do with rediculous laws. Galils are inexpensive to produce.

Which of the improvements I listed do you contest. The 5.56 is a better cartridge than the 7.62x39mm and I can't imagine how anyone could argue that the sights, trigger, or mag release of the Galil is are not superior to the AK.

Most OVER rated :  Italian Carcano.....no way in hell that Oswald could make all those shots in that time frame with THAT rifle.

Under-rated:  I would have to agree that it is the FAL.  

Quoted: American Heritage had an article this month about overrated and underrated rifles. Their choice for most overrated was the US Springfield 1903. Reasons: 2) Magazine cutoff

How does that make it over-rated? I've never heard of anyone giving the '03 high marks because it has a mag cutoff. I've never heard someone say, "Yeah, it's a great rifle, too bad it doesn't have a magazine cutoff." It was part of the design because the miltitary was afraid that troops would waste ammunition. It's not the fault of the rifle, or it's designers, it's the fault of the end user(not the troops, the government).

M14 would be my most over-rated rifle. I'd like to someone to explain to me how the ergonomics are better than an M16. And don't give me that bazooka hold crap. That buttstock was chosen by the Marines, and it's longer than the original design. Again, not the fault of the weapon, the fault of the end user. The only ergonomic advantage I can see with the M14 is the side charging handle instead of the T handle on the M16, and the safety is a bit more user friendly for lefties, but that's easily addressed on the M16.

Most over-rated= Any "assault" rifle

Most under-rated= anything made by CZ or Savage rifles

Most non-firearm people way over-rate all "assault" rifles. Now for CZ firearms they have always impressed me through price to quality ratio. They always seem to be much higher quality than their price would suggest. Savage has impressed me in the same way.

Quoted: Most overrated:  Anything in that damn .17HMR caliber.......so tired of hearing about them in the mags.

I used to disparage the whole concept too, but I got to shoot one a few weekends ago and it was actually a fun little gun.  It was very accurate and really hell on crows and other pests.

The most over-rated rifles are the ones that are being over over-rated by people who've never shot them.

1) G36

2) G3

3) Galil

4) AUG

It's simply a case of the grass being greener.
The AK is also very over-rated, but for the opposite reason.
Guys with SKS's and not much else, justify their lack of cool guns that way.

Quoted: Quoted: There isn't a damned thing that any H&K auto rifle can do that one of my F A Ls can't do for a fraction of the cost. Oh yeah? Try being a pain in the ass to field stripp and clean!

you got that right...I bought a CETME...what an abomination that thing is to clean...let alone charge the friggen thing...I think THAT's what fu**ed up my rotator cuff in my left shoulder, now that I think about it lol.  

Most overrated... the M14.

Most Overrated - most HK guns - if nothing else for the price - WHY?! I have only fired a few HK guns - the German sporterized version G3/HK91, HK USP Tactical .45, and the German sporterized version of the HK93 - SL7 or SL6? Anyway - I didn't know that many Germans who owned or loved HK while I was in Germany. FAL's are popular - ie the old German G1 rifle. Sig Sauer handguns are very popular - but if everyone thinks that Germans naturally have a collection of HK products - they are way way off. Mostly American guns are popular over there - the American consumer and cheesy action movies is why everyone in the US wants a HK SOCOM .45 and an MP5 in their closet. To each their own - but HK is just another gun - if it works for you - congratulations. I think their ergonomics suck and there is nothing special I see with the guns. Most of the guns I fired overseas that I was impressed with were manufactured by Mauser, Luger, Sig, BRNO,etc.

I love the AR15 and the FAL - and think both are underrated. The AR15 gets a lot of crap but is very heavily used for a gun worlwide military - and civilian - for armchair commandos to attack it so much. Yes the AK is great for reliability - I have owned three - and sold three - ergonomics suck and could not be worse then an AK - and accuracy is crappy at best with a standard AK. So there is the AK74 - why not just stick with 5.56mm then a 5.45mm round which has been proven to be ballistically inferior to the 5.56mm and which could become very rare ammo. The 5.45mm is cheap to buy in America - for now......so long as its imported - and I dont foresee cheap domestically produced ammo for the AK74 clones.

 The M14 and M1911 have a lot of nostalgia behind them and are good guns in their own way. But I think a lot of it is just that - nostalgia - their respective qualities verses other normal guns? I don't see what is so special? Am I missing something? A wooden stock battle rifle and a single action only .45 are certainly effective and reliable weapons - and yet - many other weapons can hold their own to these two easily. I think its nostalgia driving popularity with these two.

Anything Ruger makes.

Underrated: US M1917 rifle, aka P17 Enfield

Ken, yep, agreed.  And it was the basis for the Remington Model 30.

A very rugged rifle, parts still available from Gun Parts Corp.

Quoted: Underrated: US M1917 rifle, aka P17 Enfield Ken, yep, agreed.  And it was the basis for the Remington Model 30. A very rugged rifle, parts still available from Gun Parts Corp.

Woot!  Roger that.  Alot of people think that Sgt. York's famous feat of accuracy was accomplished with a 1903 Springfield, but that is because Gary Cooper used a 1903 in the movie depicting York's life.  The actual gun used by Alvin York was an "Eddystone" P17 Enfield.  The P17s are built like a bank vault, with old world craftsmanship you just don't see anymore.

Quoted: Quoted: American Heritage had an article this month about overrated and underrated rifles. Their choice for most overrated was the US Springfield 1903. Reasons: 2) Magazine cutoff How does that make it over-rated? I've never heard of anyone giving the '03 high marks because it has a mag cutoff. I've never heard someone say, "Yeah, it's a great rifle, too bad it doesn't have a magazine cutoff." It was part of the design because the miltitary was afraid that troops would waste ammunition. It's not the fault of the rifle, or it's designers, it's the fault of the end user(not the troops, the government).

The author of the article thought the magazine cutoff switch was a bad idea and just one more thing to go wrong in battle.
I think it probably killed troops. What an awful design feature!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The most overrated is the M1 Garand. Don't get me wrong, I respect the M1, and it was the best available in its time, but is very dated. I get so sick of people saying that it is STILL the best rifle ever made, they would rather have one than an M16 if they were going to Iraq, blah, blah, blah. The most underrated is the Galil. Israel took a tough, reliable design that was economical to produce(the AK) and fixed most of its flaws. Better trigger, better sights, better mag release, and a better cartridge. Galil is VERY over-rated. Its expensive, heavy, and only offers the worst qualities of an M16 and AK-57 with none of the benifits. There is a reason why the Isrealis use M-16s and not Gailils. How ya figure? Yes, a civilian legal Galil is too damn expensive to buy. Our cost has nothing to due with production costs, and everything to do with rediculous laws. Galils are inexpensive to produce. Which of the improvements I listed do you contest. The 5.56 is a better cartridge than the 7.62x39mm and I can't imagine how anyone could argue that the sights, trigger, or mag release of the Galil is are not superior to the AK.

However, every aspect of the Galil is inferior to the AR, and most other western assault weapons...

Which is why the Izzys pulled them out of front-line units...

Quoted: Over rated-G3 and FAL Under rated-  M-14 at least around here,and Savage bolt guns The savage is every bit as capable as the remington at half the price but if you build one up people think your wasting your time.Having shot the FAL and M-14/M1a I can say that the M14 is in my mind the absolute apex of battle rifle design.Vastly superior sights,ergonomics, stone reliability in all conditions.Don't get me wrong,the FAL is good but to say the U.S. should have adopted it is ridiculous. Oh, and the M-14 was not replaced because of any shortcomings but because of a change in tactics, the spray and pray mentality born of people who believed that technology could replace a well trained rifleman.It is still in service with units that have rediscovered it so to speak, happily  going about doing what it was designed to do, blissfully unaware of the fact that it is "inferior and outdated"

No, the AR-10 is the absolute apex of 'battle rifle' (eg 308 autoloader) design...

1) No gooseneck stock, which for MOST people means better ergonomics & control, unless you grew up with gooseneck-stocked hunting rifles (the reason why alot of the older folks preferr M14 ergonomics, they are the last generation that expects a rifle to have a wooden, gooseneck stock. The pistol-grip design is superior in every way...)

2) Inline recoil system

3) No gas piston

4) More accurate

5) Better Sights

6) More versitile...

Quoted: The idea that the Mauser 98 is overrated is one of the strangest I've  heard. It was a trendsetter, and modern Masuer 98 decendents remain the top of the line as far as bolt actions go. The Mosin Nagant was basically a poor knock-off. Obviously ARs are underrated; there is plenty of hate directed at them, yet all in all they are perhaps the best modern assault rifle. I nominate the SIG 550 series as most overrated. I've never used one, but based on all the lust people have for them, it is probably a piece of crap compred to its rep.

+1

To add, the Germans didn't have proper winter lube for thier firearms and that caused alot of problems for them.
"Over-rated, The Mauser 98" Yeah, there are alot of African big game guns built on the Nagant action!!!!!!
"Over-rated, ARs" Yeah, it's only been in service ie: combat in every part of the world for 40 plus years!!!
Some of you guys need to get outside away from the cleaning solvents and get some freash air.




mark

Over- Colt AR's  My buddys is no different than my Bushy.  If the reciever wasn't labeled there would be no difference.  His cost about $400 more.

Under-SKS, Savage, Nagant.  I DID drop my Nagant in a muddy puddle walking in to the range.  Just wiped off the sites and hit the target.  

I do not have the bredth of firearms
knowledge to assign an overrated
status, but I'd like to put forth the
following for underrated consideration:

All CZ firearms (underrated in the
  US market)
Swiss K-31 rifles

I consider the K-31 to be the finest
rifle (fit, finish, design, construction,
accuracy) of the WWII era.

CZ firearms, IMHO, have the best
quality/value ratio in the business.