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Posted: 10/8/2003 11:14:04 AM EDT
Around 20 years ago, one book named the HK91 as "absolutely the best defensive firearm available." Today it seems that mainly used HK91's are available, commanding prices of at least $2000. What modern .308 rifle could be considered the "equivalent" of the HK91 today (maybe AR-10)? Or does HK91 still remain one of the "best" for survival purposes?
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 12:28:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/8/2003 12:28:51 PM EDT by Noname]
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 12:36:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 1:08:04 PM EDT
Thanks... I'm surprised the HK91 isn't mentioned much.
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 1:25:16 PM EDT
I've always wanted a HK91.

I WILL have one one day. But a FAL is a hard rifle to beat. I love mine.
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 1:39:18 PM EDT
For me the HK91 is too hard to scope accurately.
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 1:48:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
For me the HK91 is too hard to scope accurately.


I'll add to that that it recoils way too much for a .308, and weighs far too much to be carried.
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 4:37:55 AM EDT
I'll add that the HK91 factory trigger is poor (IMHO) Get a FAL , best current deal going.
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 4:46:49 AM EDT
Why do they specify it to say "best defensive firearm available"?

I want offensive firepower.
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 9:39:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PosterChild:
Why do they specify it to say "best defensive firearm available"?

I want offensive firepower.



Perhaps because attacking someone is frowned upon more than defending yourself?
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 9:49:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2003 9:49:51 AM EDT by 5subslr5]

Originally Posted By Jack_Archer:

Originally Posted By PosterChild:
Why do they specify it to say "best defensive firearm available"?

I want offensive firepower.



Perhaps because attacking someone is frowned upon more than defending yourself?



Don't you become offensive when you decide to defend yourself ??


Link Posted: 10/9/2003 9:56:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:

Originally Posted By Jack_Archer:

Originally Posted By PosterChild:
Why do they specify it to say "best defensive firearm available"?

I want offensive firepower.



Perhaps because attacking someone is frowned upon more than defending yourself?



Don't you become offensive when you decide to defend yourself ??






I hurl obscenities, so yes, I do become offensive.

Link Posted: 10/9/2003 2:59:23 PM EDT
SR25k with ACOG TA11 would be my first choice.

G3 or HK91 and its Springfield or FMP clone would be my second,

FN FAL and DSA FAL are my third.

Galil AR is my Forth

M14 and M1a are my fifth.

Not too sure on the BM59 but do hear a lot of good thing about it.
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 6:33:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2003 6:34:40 PM EDT by MaverickMkii]

Originally Posted By SMGLee:
SR25k with ACOG TA11 would be my first choice.

G3 or HK91 and its Springfield or FMP clone would be my second,



Me want!


I seriously thought about AR10 .308 but I don't know if it is as reliable as AR15 yet... It may need a little bit more developement..?
Link Posted: 10/10/2003 6:16:41 AM EDT
The G3/HK91 is way too heavy and produces too much recoil.

The FAL is a nice rifle, but the ergonomics suck IMHO.

The AR-10 is some Geek's wet dream, I wouldn't own one.

Galils are too damned expensive.

That leaves the M1A
Link Posted: 10/10/2003 8:14:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911Shootist:
The FAL is a nice rifle, but the ergonomics suck IMHO.



Change the safey out. You're into 1911s, you should know about having to change a gun right out of the box to get it like you want it
Link Posted: 10/10/2003 8:59:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2003 9:00:43 AM EDT by 5subslr5]

Originally Posted By MaverickMkii:


I seriously thought about AR10 .308 but I don't know if it is as reliable as AR15 yet... It may need a little bit more developement..?




MM,
I've owned several AR-10's over the years and must tell you that when crap mags, crap ammunition and operator error are subtracted you have a very reliable weapon in the AR-10. However, I should also point out the AR-10's are made to tight tolerances in order to insure an accurate weapon.

There just ain't no free lunch. Tighter tolerances are less forgiving on mags and ammo. Looser tolerances, such as the AK-47, give less accuracy, are more forgiving on mags and would likely propel a wet turd down range if you could get one in the chamber !!

This spring and early summer ArmaLite did MUCH testing on the AR-10 using, among other things, very high speed film. Exactly what they found ArmaLite considers trade secrets. I do know all those findings are now incorporated into the current AR-10's. From a shooter's standpoint, I really like the balance of the new AR-10's. ArmaLite slimmed down the barrels and removed all excess weight.
Link Posted: 10/10/2003 11:33:20 AM EDT
M1A Scout with Aimpoint
Fulton Armory M1 Garand
FR-8
Link Posted: 10/11/2003 8:57:40 AM EDT
For my money it would be the M1A.

Jim
Link Posted: 10/11/2003 1:50:04 PM EDT
Heres an inexpensive Idea.
Saiga .308, Very reliable, Nearly indestructible & easy to scope, Drawbacks are only 8 (Easy to convert to 10rd) round mags available & I can Only get it to shoot 4MOA;
My AR-10 shoots 1/2 inch groups, M1A 1 inch groups, DSA STG FAL 2in groups. My HK 91 shoots 1.5in groups But I hardly ever shoot it, It kicks like a mule & bounces the empties off the brass screen @ the range with such force that It feel like someone is shooting at me! .
Link Posted: 10/11/2003 1:53:21 PM EDT
Ive never been a big fan of the HK's ergonomics.

1. SR25
2. FAL
3. M1A

2&3 change on the hour with me.
Link Posted: 10/11/2003 1:55:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By aerod1:
For my money it would be the M1A.

Jim



Mine too!

MM419
Link Posted: 10/11/2003 2:04:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SMGLee:
SR25k with ACOG TA11 would be my first choice.

G3 or HK91 and its Springfield or FMP clone would be my second,

FN FAL and DSA FAL are my third.

Galil AR is my Forth

M14 and M1a are my fifth.

Not too sure on the BM59 but do hear a lot of good thing about it.




I was amused to see that if you completely reverse this list you have my picks and their order.
Link Posted: 10/13/2003 10:13:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By norman74:

Originally Posted By 1911Shootist:
The FAL is a nice rifle, but the ergonomics suck IMHO.



Change the safey out. You're into 1911s, you should know about having to change a gun right out of the box to get it like you want it



Yuk, yuk, yuk, yuk, yuk.

Didn't change a thing on my Wilson Combat Protector or my Les Baer TRS.
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 6:23:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Ive never been a big fan of the HK's ergonomics.

1. SR25
2. FAL
3. M1A

2&3 change on the hour with me.

.............I`m with lumpy.....actually....this question should be a automatic monthly poll.......
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 8:24:32 PM EDT
I go for the FAL, why? Parts are cheap and available. Mags are $3 if you know where to buy them. The gas system allows you to set it for different ammo types if needed. 90 countries can't be wrong.

The AR-10 mags are too much $$.

The knock on the KH-91 is that the receiver can be "easily" dented and the rifle made unusable. I have never done it, but I have read it. I do not step on my rifles. Mags can be had for an OK price if you know where to get them.
Link Posted: 10/14/2003 9:44:43 PM EDT
1.AR-10
2.AR-10
3.AR-10

...Did I mention the AR-10?

Seriously I'd throw the FAL and M1A behind the AR-10. I like the pistol grip of the FAL but love the sights and trigger of the M1A.
Link Posted: 10/15/2003 1:46:15 PM EDT
Either the M-14 ( M-1A ) or the AR-10A2.
Link Posted: 10/15/2003 2:03:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Blackjack272:


....or the AR-10A2.




I love the look of the AR-10A2 but since I seldom shoot without a scope these days opted the AR-10A4.
Link Posted: 10/16/2003 9:20:47 AM EDT
Never shot an AR10 but most of the others mentioned. Assuming a few fairly hurried shots with stock sights, I'll take my CETME or G3. For a fight of duration, FAL mag changes are way better. Both are 2-3 moa for me, and unless I really take my time, that extra inch that an AR10 should be capable of just is not in me to shoot.
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 9:26:43 AM EDT
(1.) HK32KA3- Wish more would have been made/imported.
(2.) SR25
(3.) HK91
(4.) FAL
(5.) M1A
Link Posted: 10/17/2003 12:52:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RS39:
Never shot an AR10 but most of the others mentioned. Assuming a few fairly hurried shots with stock sights, I'll take my CETME or G3. For a fight of duration, FAL mag changes are way better. Both are 2-3 moa for me, and unless I really take my time, that extra inch that an AR10 should be capable of just is not in me to shoot.



RS39,
if say you're shooting 2.5 MOA with your CETME or G3, with the 'same' effort you should shoot about 1.5 MOA with the AR-10. All other factors, such as ammunition, environment etc., remaining the same.
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 5:39:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/18/2003 5:43:38 PM EDT by Cold_Warrior]
Anyone care to list the qualities that make a good "survival weapon", in order of importance? Not having had to survive with one (did all my fighting with a computer...) I can only surmise that the following might be one set of choices:

1) Rapid fire rate (auto vs semi vs bolt)
2) Durability / ruggedness
3) Accuracy
4) Ergonomics / ease of use / recoil
5) Ammo availability / diversity
6) Cost
7) Coolness

Anyone else?
Also, what about the ComBloc stuff, i.e. AK's and SVD's and the ilk?

BTW, going to get my G3 clone in a couple of weeks; would imagine that the recoil will be a tad less than my Benelli M1 Tactical with 3" Magnum slugs...

CW
Link Posted: 10/18/2003 9:20:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/18/2003 9:21:12 PM EDT by Phila-PD]
Saiga .308 with S/A ammunition gives me 1.5" groups all day long. Converted the 8 rounders to 10 shot and they work prefectly. Had a Magazine belt made which holds 15 magazine and thats all the ammunition I'll need until I De-De out of there. Hay, 8 round weapons worked fine for are guys in WWII.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 4:11:35 PM EDT
Here, watch Valmets, HK's, Fals and more fight it out.
http://www.valmet-weapons.com/Torture_Test_Page1.html
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 2:53:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Scarecrow:
Here, watch Valmets, HK's, Fals and more fight it out.
http://www.valmet-weapons.com/Torture_Test_Page1.html



That was just rude. Making us remember the good ole days like that! If we had only known then what we know now....
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 6:07:10 AM EDT
I forgot the HK51. I don't know if HK ever made any themselves, but I've seen some dam nice HK91 conversions.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 6:34:09 AM EDT
Those valmets are great guns. I had gotten 2 of them right after the 89 import ban. Model 76 in 223 with a folder, and a Model 76 in 308 with the plastic stock, and forged receiver. Some say these are the best made AK types out there. Mine sit new in the safe, unfired still. One of these days.. maybe I'll get around to firing them...
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 3:20:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Phila-PD:
Saiga .308 with S/A ammunition gives me 1.5" groups all day long. Converted the 8 rounders to 10 shot and they work prefectly. Had a Magazine belt made which holds 15 magazine and thats all the ammunition I'll need until I De-De out of there. Hay, 8 round weapons worked fine for are guys in WWII.



I agree, for less than $250 the .308 Saiga is impossible to beat, Its extra heavy AK receiver make it almost indestructible!
Link Posted: 10/21/2003 3:48:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/24/2003 6:57:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/24/2003 8:23:27 AM EDT by Tweak]
Modified with a Scout style base would be perfect.

If I could find the one on the bottom here I would take it instead.
A lot of the same improvements as the M16A1 with the exception of the chrome bore. Odd how Armalite had already worked out all the problems the military later encountered with the AR15.
Link Posted: 10/26/2003 2:51:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/26/2003 3:01:10 AM EDT by GreyGhost]
Here's my list and I personally have them all except for the HK...

1.M1A
2.HK91
3.FAL
4.AR10
5.Cetme


The FAL would be rated higher but the ergonomics suck,especially if you have the Izzy configuration like I do.Very reliable though.Iron sights not the best.Adjustable gas system is a big plus.

The HK may be heavy and the trigger sucks but like an AK,you can throw it in the mud and pick it up and start firing.Recoil is bad,I remember when I had mine,if I shot a couple hundred rounds my shoulder would be black and blue.Not like Mike Tyson had just whipped my ass but slightly bruised.

I love my AR10A4,super accurate, but I wouldn't bet my life on it in a SHTF situation where you may not always be able to clean your weapons meticuously.The AR platform can be very finicky.

I got one of the 1st Cetme's and mine's as reliable as any HK91.

I'd pick the M1A 1st.Very reliable and accurate.Best iron sights around.Some people say they are hard to scope but that's misinformation.Put a Smith or ARMS mount on it and you are good to go.

There is no "Best".They all have their own + and -.
Link Posted: 10/26/2003 11:10:17 AM EDT
I'd like to add the one time i was shooting a 91, it was launching brass into low orbit
Link Posted: 10/26/2003 11:06:07 PM EDT
All this was very helpful, thanks. Of the short list, is the AR-10 the only one in current production available to civilians? Any others of good quality and reputation that are still being built?
Link Posted: 10/27/2003 12:06:32 AM EDT
Most of them are still available, tho they're cheaper as post bans. Easiest to get would probably be the FAlclones, like DSA ect.

Are you actually basing a purchase on this info? That's not a real sound idea. Best bet is to get out and shoot the likely candidates.

Is the book you mentioned by Mel Tappan?
Link Posted: 10/27/2003 8:08:28 PM EDT
The book is "Life After Doomsday" by Bruce Clayton, but it cites Mel Tappan's book on survival guns. I just wanted to see whether the HK-91 remains worthy of the praise showered upon it in these books, or whether there are now more challengers.
Link Posted: 10/27/2003 11:08:02 PM EDT
anon23bf,

The HK 91, indeed the majority of the HK series, isn't worthy of the praise showered on it.

The FAL is just as heavy and has better ergonomics.

The US military has tested all the designs at one time or another and they've all been found lacking.
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 4:27:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/28/2003 4:29:21 AM EDT by norman74]

Originally Posted By anon23bf:
All this was very helpful, thanks. Of the short list, is the AR-10 the only one in current production available to civilians? Any others of good quality and reputation that are still being built?



Current production, new rifles, not parts guns built from the scrap heap www.dsarms.com








Link Posted: 10/28/2003 5:08:31 PM EDT
Forgive me for asking, I am not trying to hijack the thread, but where can I find out more about the .308 Saiga. Can you mount a scope on it and where can my dealer get one? Thanks.
Link Posted: 10/28/2003 5:39:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bernie:
Forgive me for asking, I am not trying to hijack the thread, but where can I find out more about the .308 Saiga. Can you mount a scope on it and where can my dealer get one? Thanks.


V
Link Posted: 10/29/2003 9:54:44 PM EDT
I would pick the M1A. There are a number of reasons the M-14 was picked over the FAL, including lighter weight and a greater similarity to the existing M1 Garand. It also has the benifit of a forward assist which most FAL's generally do not have. The M1A has better sights than the FAL or G3 type rifles, and it has the accuracy to make use of them.

I was also rather impressed at the CETME I was able to try out. Very little percieved recoil, no malfunctions, and quite accurate. Also, I am looking at an ad for CETME rifles for $299.95 in SGN right now. Can't beat that price with any of the other rifles you find!
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