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Posted: 10/5/2003 12:20:37 PM EDT
hi all,

i am thinking about buyin a glock in 10mm, but i was wondering if the brass is going to be extremely hard to find or any pros and cons of a 10mm.

thanks
lojack
Link Posted: 10/5/2003 12:24:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/5/2003 12:42:08 PM EDT by Minuteman419]
Hi! Brass is no problem Starline can fix you up there.

I have 5 10's, 2 are Glocks, a 20 and a 29.

You can't go wrong with a 10 IMO.

Edit: I have my best results with Blue Dot powder and 180 JHP's BTW.

MM419

Danny
Link Posted: 10/5/2003 12:54:17 PM EDT
why get a 10mm, why not jus the .40, from what i have seen ammo is harder to find and nobody carries 10mm that much.

I jus saw the new .45GAP, what a waste, i guess someone jus had to have their OWN round of ammo, it goes the same for .357SIG.


10mm, .45gap & .357sig are all bastard rounds. IMO i stick with the tried and true 9mm and .45 lots of ammo for both these, lots of choices.
Link Posted: 10/5/2003 2:29:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/5/2003 3:30:20 PM EDT
well the issue isnt the the effectiveness of the round. i already have a 9mm, 40, and 45. i reload for all of these and the 40 and 10mm are the same round, just different cases. from what i have read, the glock is the only one that can take the pressure and abuse that the 10 mm delivers.
Link Posted: 10/5/2003 5:46:50 PM EDT
If you want a 10 mm auto, you're on track thinking that Glock is the ONLY way to go. When researching 10's, I was advised that the Colt Delta Elite was good for about 1000 rounds and that the S&W 1006 was good for 5000 rounds. Glock 20 was not limited with the number of rounds of service. In terms of finding ammo, some other members mentioned finding ammo and issue and there is some truth to that. Do not expect to find 10 mm at any big retail/chain sporting goods store/department. However, most quality gun stores still carry 10 mm ammunition. Just remember to stock up when you can - since you're reloading this should not be an issue for you.

For die-tryin: the 10 mm is NOT a bastard cartridge. The cartridge is a genesis in cartridge development and was originally designed for federal agencies to use. The original 10 mm loading gave "near" 41 Magnum performance. Once introduced to the Feds, enough of the agents complained about the recoil which led to the cartridge load being reduced for training purposes. Although the reduced loadings tamed the complaints about recoil, the reduced loading also led to failure to function such as stove piping. The failure to function issues led the agents to not trust their 10 mm. A rather observant person made note that the reduced loadings that felt comfortable to shoot in training sessions did not require the case capacity of the 10 mm and designed the 40's shorter case which also helped with functioning in the 40 pistols. I concede that the 40 is now a more popular cartridge, however the 10 mm is not a bastard cartridge rather an original which allowed the hybrid 40 to be developed later.

IMHO there is no better cartridge than the 10 mm. It is effective for self-defense and hunting. It has some recoil, but is not unmanageable.
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 5:52:53 AM EDT
I was kind of considering it myself, but I don't care much for the new Glocks. However, there is an 10mm Witness at my gun shop I've been eyeing every time I go in.
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 6:02:58 AM EDT
I am not a 10mm fan but if I was going to buy one it would be the Glock.

I know a guy that has several 10mm pistols and he shoots a lot.

The Glock is the only one that has not gave him any trouble.

Whoever said the Colt was only good for about 1,000 rounds was almost corect. His lasted about 1,500 before it battered itself into junk.
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 6:57:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By raf:
Some people, myself included, refuse to buy NEW Glock products because of Glock's cave-in on the ballistic fingerprinting issue.

While the 10mm is a good cartridge, it's cost and less than universal availability argue against it.

There are other guns and calibers that will do the job, IMHO.

Link Posted: 10/6/2003 7:05:04 AM EDT
humm so the only con that anyone can come up with is "the glock issue" and "other calibars will do the job" OK so thats no reason not to buy one. we all have firearms that will do the job (what ever that is lol) and seeing the ballasitic finger printing hasnt gone anywhere, whos cares. glock makes a good gun. each person has their own opinion. are there any other cons about a 10mm that im missing?
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 2:34:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/6/2003 2:38:15 PM EDT by Smokey_Colt]
I don't know where these Urban myths come from concerning the Colt Delta Elites comming apart after 1000 rounds, I have had one in 10mm since 1990 and had only problems with light loaded cheap ammo not feeding correctly. Home brew , Silver tips and Hydrashock are the best food for it. Don't worry about availability of 10 mm ammo. You can always find a vendor at a large gun show with some cheap because they can't move it. I usually buy all they have for a fraction of what you can get it for at a gun shop. A 10mm can be hand loaded alot hotter than a 40 so don't let anyone tell you it is no better than a 40. Here is a link for some factory ammo specs: http://www.thegunzone.com/10v40.html go to the bottom
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 3:49:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 5:14:34 PM EDT
10mm has always been my padre's favorite round. In his old Glock. (Ted Nugent loves his as well.)

I have shot it many times, it is a very accurate and easy to shoot. Idon't know what those sissy FBI guys were complaining about.

The only reason I don't have one is because the ammo price. (and I won't buy a Glock now anyway)
Link Posted: 10/6/2003 10:40:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 8:18:17 AM EDT
I'm glad I found this thread. I have a 10mm on my wish list for the furure, and was planing on a 1076 or 1006. I guess I will be going with a Glock. Hell, I love my G22, but I had heard about some K-booms on the earlier G20's.
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 11:00:59 AM EDT
The only gun related sale I ever made & regretted was the three brand new (still had burrs on them) 10mm Glock hi-caps I had. Bought them for $100/ea. and sold them for the same price. I SOOOOO wish I had those back.
Never did buy the gun to put them in. I've really slimmed down my collection to "needs" in the last couple of years, but somehow I just still think I "need" a Glock 20.
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 2:14:58 PM EDT
Having personnaly owned one for many years and still own it, I have put well over 3000 rounds through this particular weapon. I have first hand experiance with the Delta Elite. It is not information about a friend some friend or some unknown gun store. The Delta elite was designed to take the punishment of the 10mm Round by using stiffer springs (yes 2 springs) and a recoil buffer. I would Like to see the pictures of these weapons that failed, what was punished to the point of failure? What actually failed, the frame, Slide and supply the S/N range. See if you can get some more info (pictures) and proof of what happened and post it. If it is really such a problem then Colt would have issued a recall in order to fix the problem and prevent a serious lawsuit from personnal injury,otherwise it is still 3rd hand information and is is about as true as the easter bunny or bigfoot. I say if you have evidence prove it, otherwise don't post information like an expert about something you have never owned.
Link Posted: 10/7/2003 7:55:56 PM EDT
It never fails that if you post known problems with a certian firearm there is always the guy that claims the stories are not true because HIS gun has not had these problems.

There is always a guy that will claim ALL Bryco pistols are quality and will last a lifetime because his has not caused him any problems.

Much like the guy that drove a Chevy Vega for 100,000 miles without a problem. He may assume they were all that good.

The fact is that on the average the Bryco is a POS. The Vega was normaly good for about 40,000 miles and the average 10mm 1911 does not hold up to full power loads as long as the Glock and a lot of them give problems in as little as 1,500 rounds.

These facts are known to those with a lot of experience with several of the things in question.
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 12:29:12 AM EDT
Some of youse guys are missing the point. Why would anybody want a 10mm 1911 to begin with? The .45acp 1911 is already the optimum gun/cartridge combination, why fuck with perfection?

10mm is a solution in search of a problem. And Glocks are KBs-in-waiting.
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 7:23:41 AM EDT
"It never fails that if you post known problems with a certian firearm there is always the guy that claims the stories are not true because HIS gun has not had these problems."

It never fails that the self proclaimed experts that know everything about the problems with weapon have never owned the firearm in dispute. They can never produce real evidence of the problems, it is always " It is a friend of mine", "A guy at the gun store told me" ," I read this on the net", "Or It is a widely known fact." Prove it with a well know source, A gun publication, or any real evidence. Where did you get this information? So far nobody here has supplied any direct proof of these failures, it is all just word of mouth. Lets see a list the S/N of the weapons that failed and the pictures of the failures.
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 6:21:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 10:41:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/8/2003 10:51:35 PM EDT by warlord]

Originally Posted By metalrocks:
If you want a 10 mm auto, you're on track thinking that Glock is the ONLY way to go. When researching 10's, I was advised that the Colt Delta Elite was good for about 1000 rounds and that the S&W 1006 was good for 5000 rounds. Glock 20 was not limited with the number of rounds of service. In terms of finding ammo, some other members mentioned finding ammo and issue and there is some truth to that. Do not expect to find 10 mm at any big retail/chain sporting goods store/department. However, most quality gun stores still carry 10 mm ammunition. Just remember to stock up when you can - since you're reloading this should not be an issue for you.


I would like to respectfully disagree on the service life of a Delta Elite. At my local now-closed indoor range, they had a box stock rental Delta Elite that fired a steady diet of PMC factory loaded ammo. The slide cracked at 2,500 rounds behind the ejection port. The frame cracked at the slide stop hole at 5,000 and it was retired. I don't know about the S&W 1000 series, but in an old brochure, they "claim" that it was designed for a steady diet of full-power factory ammo.

I spoke with a Glock rep, and he says that the 10mm Glocks are designed from the ground-up for the more powerful round. And I believe him, my old range had a rental Glock 17 that went 500,000 rounds before cracking the slide, and when the range closed it doors, it had shot 750,000 rounds.

I have a 10mm SS Delta Gold Cup that I shoot every once in awhile, I handload the ammo to 45ACP levels to prevent breaking up a potential collectors item. I have upgraded the springs with a kit from King's Gun Works, Glendale, CAlif. The kit includes a full-length SS guide rod, 2 shock buffs to be used at the same time, and a another set of higher rated springs. With this setup, it takes a bit of strength to rack the slide, but it functions well with my downloaded ammo.
Link Posted: 10/8/2003 11:06:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By metalrocks:
For die-tryin: the 10 mm is NOT a bastard cartridge. The cartridge is a genesis in cartridge development and was originally designed for federal agencies to use. The original 10 mm loading gave "near" 41 Magnum performance. Once introduced to the Feds, enough of the agents complained about the recoil which led to the cartridge load being reduced for training purposes. Although the reduced loadings tamed the complaints about recoil, the reduced loading also led to failure to function such as stove piping. The failure to function issues led the agents to not trust their 10 mm. A rather observant person made note that the reduced loadings that felt comfortable to shoot in training sessions did not require the case capacity of the 10 mm and designed the 40's shorter case which also helped with functioning in the 40 pistols. I concede that the 40 is now a more popular cartridge, however the 10 mm is not a bastard cartridge rather an original which allowed the hybrid 40 to be developed later.


I think the FBI had requested the downloaded 10mm, but.... During a tour of FBI HQ, Wash. DC, the guide said that most of these people are really accountants rather than LE people. The main thrust of the FBI is ferret out fraud.
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 6:15:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Smokey_Colt:
"It never fails that if you post known problems with a certian firearm there is always the guy that claims the stories are not true because HIS gun has not had these problems."

It never fails that the self proclaimed experts that know everything about the problems with weapon have never owned the firearm in dispute. They can never produce real evidence of the problems, it is always " It is a friend of mine", "A guy at the gun store told me" ," I read this on the net", "Or It is a widely known fact." Prove it with a well know source, A gun publication, or any real evidence. Where did you get this information? So far nobody here has supplied any direct proof of these failures, it is all just word of mouth. Lets see a list the S/N of the weapons that failed and the pictures of the failures.



2+2=4
gravity keeps us from falling off the earth
the sun rises in the east
the sun sets in the west
10mm 1911 style handguns don't last as long as .45

Some things are just fact.

I personally wanted a Delta Elite, found one at a gunshop, and found hairline cracks in the frame which made me pass.
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 6:35:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/9/2003 6:36:04 AM EDT by Torf]
Having recently purchased a Glock 20, I have nothing but praise for it.

Glock 10mm's are your best bet in the 10mm Auto pistol market.

Brass is easy to find. MidwayUSA resells Starline brass for $100/thousand - same as Starline, and local gunstores sell used brass as well. I bought 100 used Hornady cases for 8 bucks the first day I had the gun, and I'll probably get rid of them after 4 firings just to be safe.

Blue Dot powder works great for hand weighed charges, but I am leaning towards #7 for use with the powder drop.

.40 cal bullets are becomming very plentiful as well. 10mm is an easy cartridge to reload, and I am more comfortable with it than I am with a .40 S&W since 10mm has pressure to spare.
Link Posted: 10/9/2003 10:35:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Smokey_Colt:
"It never fails that if you post known problems with a certian firearm there is always the guy that claims the stories are not true because HIS gun has not had these problems."

It never fails that the self proclaimed experts that know everything about the problems with weapon have never owned the firearm in dispute. They can never produce real evidence of the problems, it is always " It is a friend of mine", "A guy at the gun store told me" ," I read this on the net", "Or It is a widely known fact." Prove it with a well know source, A gun publication, or any real evidence. Where did you get this information? So far nobody here has supplied any direct proof of these failures, it is all just word of mouth. Lets see a list the S/N of the weapons that failed and the pictures of the failures.



Smokey_Colt, ditto what Troy advised about proof. I used a gun shop where I respected the opinion of the guys in the shop. They had heard of the problems and steered me clear of Colt and SW 10mm. This is an advantage on my opinion. Why spend my hard earned money on something that may or may not break? I wanted reliability and went with Glock. I wouldn't want to have to modify a Colt or SW with new springs, buffers or cuts to do the job correctly in the first place.

Since you have asked for proof of someone having direct problems (see Troy's response)I want to turn this around. I want proof from you that your gun is a true and typical representation of the lifespan of all Colt DE's produced. In other words, statisically is your gun's lifespan normal or an exception to the production run of DE's? Oh, and remember if it didn't come with a buffer in stock configuration then your sample is invalid.

I'm not directly attacking you, but please realize that there are 2 arguments that can be made about showing proof either for or against anything. I just brought up the other side of the argument. I'm glad your DE has lasted, I actually like 1911 style pistols.
Link Posted: 10/10/2003 6:35:52 PM EDT
I have wanted either a Springfield Omega or the Springfield linkless in 10mm for a long time now, for personal satisfaction of ownership more than anything else. The Omega can still be had. I saw one for $600 a couple of months back. Low on cash, tant pis, schade, verflixt.

The .45 super, however, seems like a pretty good option at reasonable pressures, and since Starline stocked super brass, this seems like a more versatile option than the 10mm. I'll stick with the USP for now, though I freely admit the 1911 ergonomics are superior for me.

Gotta pass on the Glock simply b/c they don't fit my hand great.
Link Posted: 10/10/2003 9:35:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ustulina:
I have wanted either a Springfield Omega or the Springfield linkless in 10mm for a long time now, for personal satisfaction of ownership more than anything else. The Omega can still be had. I saw one for $600 a couple of months back. Low on cash, tant pis, schade, verflixt.


Careful on the Omega, if you break anything replacement parts are NOT readily available, if at all. So if you break one of the twin extractors or firing pin you will must pay a gunsmith to machine another one for you. I shot a friend's Omega chambered in 10mm with twin-port compensator machined into the slide/barrel. Barely felt the recoil.
Link Posted: 10/12/2003 10:39:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ustulina:
The .45 super, however, seems like a pretty good option at reasonable pressures, and since Starline stocked super brass, this seems like a more versatile option than the 10mm. I'll stick with the USP for now, though I freely admit the 1911 ergonomics are superior for me.


I think both Winchester and Remington make 10mm cases, whereas only Starline is the sole supplier of 45Super brass.


But in the real world..... Starline makes brass for Winchester and Remington. I've been to the Starline plant when it was in So. Calif 10 years ago. The plant foreman has headstamp dies for all of the major ammo mfg'rs for many different calibers. The major makes sometimes contract to Starline to make cases.
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