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Posted: 7/6/2003 4:53:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/12/2003 2:44:14 PM EDT by Tye_G]
I was wondering if anyone here might have personal experience in reloading the 9mm Winchester Magnum cartridge. Any an all information would be greatly appreciated as I am working on a project involving the re-chambering of an M-1 Carbine to this round.

The M-1 has been converted to calibers as potent as the 44 magnum and the 45 Winchester Magnum and the conversion to 9mm Winchester Magnum has been talked over by a number of experts and me for some time. The barrel seems to be more than able to either be re-chambered, bored and re-rifled to this caliber or an easier way of proceeding is to cut the .30M1 caliber barrel off just after the gas port, drill and swage a 9mm barrel into the remaining part of the original barrel then re-chambering for 9mm Win Mag. Even the threading of the barrel and tapping the remaining part holding the gas port and piston would be an idea. With the .30M-1 cartridge and the 9mm Win. Mag. cartridge being almost the same over all length the magazines would mot have to be altered and standard commercial or surplus military magazines could be used.

Any ides, hints or suggestions are welcomed.


My thanks in advance
Tye
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 5:06:28 AM EDT
Tye_G, Sounds like it might work.

I only have one suggestion though.

Some years back there was and somehow still is a gunsmith who became somewhat famous for caliber conversions and was in all the gun mags.

I sent him $ 1,750.00 to do a Match grade .45 professional conversion form my AR15 and was told I was #4 on the list.

Four years and no refund later and I have given up on ever seeing the rifle or my money again.

Link Posted: 7/6/2003 6:46:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By THISISME:
I sent him $ 1,750.00 to do a Match grade .45 professional conversion form my AR15 and was told I was #4 on the list.

Four years and no refund later and I have given up on ever seeing the rifle or my money again.



Er...start calling your local DA, man...I'd start raising a ruckus, real fast. $1700 + rifle = theft of a firearm as well as money. I'm sure the ATF would love to get involved, too. How would you react if some common miscreant broke in and stoke $1700 and one of your rifles? I'd treat this as the same.

Link Posted: 7/6/2003 6:57:48 AM EDT
Evil_Ed, He was supposed to make the upper and then I was to send the lower.

He never made the upper so there is no rifle.

I am out west and he is back east; I lived in CA when I paid him and now live in AZ and I think the statute of limitations was up after two years from date of purchase and he was still giving me excuses back then and it lapsed.

What will my local DA do for me?
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 5:16:10 AM EDT
ThisIs...

I appreciate the comments and am sorry you have run into the problems you have encountered. At current, my work is towards having a machine shop that had been turning out the 5.7mm Johnson barrels use its ability to either perform the function of cutting a shot out 30M-1 barrel and swage a new 9mm barrel blank into the portion of the old barrel remaining and chamber for the 9mm Win Mag, or thread the inner part of the remaining part of the 30M-1 barrel as well as the 9mm blank and mate them in this manor or go the complete route and with an enlarged 9mm barrel blank, CNC mill the blank into a competed M-1 barrel. I own one of the 5.7mm Johnson barrels made by a man named "Robles" (as I remember) and it is superb in manufacture and quality. The next steps I need to take are to understand the working pressures of the cartridge and the velocities I might be working with in the end.

Here is where I have put forth the idea of creating the hybridized M-1 carbine and request all information regarding the 9mm Winchester Magnum cartridge as there is little enough information about it. In that which I can remember and that which I have been told so far is that the 30M-1 and the 9mm Winchester Magnum works in a very close pressure range of about 40,000 to 45,000 psi, however the most important part of the equation is the pressure to the gas port. I am hoping to be able to get approximately 2300 to 2400 fps with a 115 grain projectile in the 18 inch carbine barrel as this round can produce around 1400 fps in a 5 inch AMT model IV semi-auto. Allowing for the longer cartridge I am hoping that I might even be able to use gas checked sized projectiles of 158-grain weight. This has been a project I have put much thought and effort into however when I first started this project my funding was much greater. Now I am proceeding on a more limited budget.

I would greatly appreciate any and all loading data concerning this cartridge so that I might start my calculations regarding chamber pressures and velocities I might encounter. I have already purchased three Inland receivers and will be looking into the acquiring of shot out barrels to use in the conversion. Have seen this type of barrel for as little as $15.00. The greater expense will be in the 9mm barrel blank and the mating of it to the receiver.

Again, any thoughts or ideas in regards to this project would be greatly appreciated.

Tye



Originally Posted By THISISME:
Tye_G, Sounds like it might work.

I only have one suggestion though.

Some years back there was and somehow still is a gunsmith who became somewhat famous for caliber conversions and was in all the gun mags.

I sent him $ 1,750.00 to do a Match grade .45 professional conversion form my AR15 and was told I was #4 on the list.

Four years and no refund later and I have given up on ever seeing the rifle or my money again.


Link Posted: 7/8/2003 9:45:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/8/2003 9:49:13 AM EDT by AR15fan]

Originally Posted By Tye_G:
Again, any thoughts or ideas in regards to this project would be greatly appreciated.




Why bother. What will the 9mm Mag do that the Remington 110Gn JSP .30 Carbine will not do?

The 9mm magnum may have better ballistics on paper, but I doubt it will offer better terminal performance. see link

64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000084.html
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 3:27:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/12/2003 6:49:10 AM EDT by Tye_G]

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By Tye_G:
Again, any thoughts or ideas in regards to this project would be greatly appreciated.




Why bother. What will the 9mm Mag do that the Remington 110Gn JSP .30 Carbine will not do?

The 9mm magnum may have better ballistics on paper, but I doubt it will offer better terminal performance. see link

64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000084.html



AR15Fan...
In that you touch on two areas I have been doing much research on, I guess I might suggest an answer in response. Terminal and Paper Ballistics.

When looking at “Terminal Ballistics” we have to look at the “two” main schools of thought pertaining to this, “Paper Ballistics” will be touched on through out.

First:
Is to throw a light projectile at the fastest velocity the cartridge can obtain thus on impact, imparting the energy to the target in the quickest time in the hopes that the smaller projectile does not penetrate through the target or totally fragment which in some cases is warranted. Using a hollow pointed 110 to 125 grain projectile in a .357 magnum is the perfect example of this theory at a listed 92% “One Shot Stop”. This combination stood for years as the best one shot stop combination. Yet, it does have its fallacies. In a condition of heavy clothing or very thick-skinned animals, the energy of the smaller projectile is wasted on the outer coating, leading to a wounded animal or the possibility of becoming the intended target of your adversary or the Hollow point become plugged and act like a light weight Hardball round. I.E. The projectile could either shoot right through or expand all of its energy to fast.

Second:
Is to throw a heavy projectile at a rate of velocity that guarantees its arrival with enough retained energy to penetrate causing the greatest amount of internal damage again hoping that the projectile does not penetrate completely thus expending its retained energy within the target. The .45 ACP is the classic example of this theory and has been proven on numerous occasions to be true and this round even in its full metal jacket is listed just under the .357 magnum in its ability at one shot stops. However the Number one load with documented “one shot stops” goes to the Federal 230 grain Hydra-Shok bullets at 94%. Although we know that, there is truly nothing that can be called the “One Shot Stop” firearm cartridge.

Therefore, we have the two basic theories and now we have to stop and look at the ability of the 30M1 carbine round. I have to admit that the current statistics of the 30M1 is very similar to that which we know of the .357 magnum. The current information we need to look at is the fact that the matching of the 30M1 and the statistics of the .357 magnum or in relation to a cartridge fired from an 18 inch barreled rifle (the 30M1) and a cartridge fired form a 5 inch barreled handgun. What I am trying to convey is the possibility of creating something, which is not available at this time and it seems that a conversion of this nature has merit in the creation of a suitable small, lightweight, fast action rifle. This rifle capable of being able to fire projectile as light as 90 grains Jacketed Hollow Point at approaching 2800 fps (thus covering the first theory of Terminal Ballistics) as well firing projectiles weighting as much as 210 grains at or around 1150 fps (thus covering the second basic theory of Terminal Ballistics). My hopes are for a 115 to 124 Hollow Point at around 2300 to 2400 fps. In either of these situations, this cartridge combination far exceeds the ability of the 30M1 Carbine round in any format.

I agree that the information posted by way of the link you supplied is interesting at best. However, when looking at retained velocity and the ability of even the Remington 110 grain Soft Point to expand “reliably” at the retained velocities of that range are in doubt. At 100 yards the Remington 110 grain soft point is traveling at a published 1567 fps with a retained energy of 600 ft-Lbs. If my calculations are correct, I should be looking at the 9mm Winchester Magnum round, in its 124 grain Hollow Point form, still traveling at or near 2000 fps at 100 yards. With a retained energy of close to 925 ft-Lbs. Knowing that current projectiles used for the 9mm and .357 caliber weapons are manufactured to expand reliably at velocities around the 1100 fps range, this caliber has many pluses the .30M1 Carbine round falters in. Mainly, and again I state, reliable expansion at greater distance as well as having a greater variance of utilizable projectiles.

Besides, I am also doing it because it does not exist.

Thanks for listening and comments welcome.
Tye G.

Link Posted: 7/12/2003 10:36:03 AM EDT
I have one of the LeMag 45WM conversions built back in the early 90's on a Postal Meter receiver. It functions quite well and is one hell of a step up in performance over the .30 carbine cartridge. I think he replaced the barrels with a 18.5" barrel that looks identical to original GI, just 0.5" longer. No need to modify mag. as this cartridge fits in the original GI mags single stacked. I beleive he also offered this conversion in the 9mm WM cartridge. If you end up building your rifle I am confident you will have a very handy and powerful weapon.
Link Posted: 7/12/2003 1:42:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wjshark:
I have one of the LeMag 45WM conversions built back in the early 90's on a Postal Meter receiver. It functions quite well and is one hell of a step up in performance over the .30 carbine cartridge. I think he replaced the barrels with a 18.5" barrel that looks identical to original GI, just 0.5" longer. No need to modify mag. as this cartridge fits in the original GI mags single stacked. I beleive he also offered this conversion in the 9mm WM cartridge. If you end up building your rifle I am confident you will have a very handy and powerful weapon.



WJShark...

Would you happen to know if the barrel used was one that was entirely milled as a new barrel conforming to the MIL Spec. or was the barrel used a combination of an older barrel with a .45 Win Mag barrel blank some how combined as a single unit. Either swaged to the end portion or possibly threaded and screwed together as a single unit.

If you have any pictures of the barrel used, it would be of immense help. I am looking for any and all information pertaining to the conversions of the 30M1 Carbine. I currently have a .22 Spitfire (5.7mm Johnson) conversion on a re-parkerized Inland receiver. When time and money allow I will look into the .256 Win Mag conversion that once was offered by Universal.

Loading data for the 9mm Win Mag is something I am also in great need of. Any ideas as to where I might inquire of this would aid in my additional calculations in projecting final loading configurations.

On another thought I too have a National Postal Meter M1 with a proper Marlin Barrel. Traded a Ben Pearson take down re-curve bow for it about 15 years ago when I found out I had Rheumatoid Arthritis. I had a great time learning how to use a bow with it but feel a made a great trade for the M1.

Thanks in advance for any information you can pass along.

Tye
Link Posted: 7/12/2003 2:43:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/12/2003 2:59:00 PM EDT by Tye_G]
Just to keep things exciting I have also been looking at a host of wildcat cartridges based on the 9mm Win Mag cartridge. So far the list I have been working with but have not settled on any ballistic data for is:

.30/9WM (110 to 150 grain bullet weight)

.25/9WM (87 to 125 grain bullet weight)

6mm/9WM (75 to 100 grain bullet weight)

.22/9WM (40 to 75 grain bullet weight)

With the ability to use spire point (spitzer) projectiles this should allow for flatter trajectory and even longer range. With the 9mm Win Mag case 29mm and the 30M1 case 33mm in length the case capacity of the 9mm Win Mag is still greater even when formed with a neck and allowing for greater distance from the bullet tip to magazine allowing the use of a longer projectile. Again this aspect is theory as I have not yet been able to physically work on these variables. However I have tried spire point projectiles in the 30M1 cartridge and have experienced much better trajectory but can only feed by hand directly into the chamber.

Yes I guess I have fallen for the allure of the 9mm Win Mag case. I just see a forgotten cartridge that has many possibilities.

As always many thanks and all suggestions, hints or help is welcomed.
Tye
Link Posted: 7/12/2003 3:21:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/12/2003 3:26:11 PM EDT by wjshark]
Tye_G
I do not have a camera, so I can't post any pics. I believe the barrels were new, it is about 0.2" longer from end of barrel to front
end of the front sight band then on a GI carbine barrel(and 0.5" longer overall), and I can find no evidence of any combining of separate barrel pieces. I'm pretty sure LeMag gunsmith co. is still in business. I'll attempt to find them on google. They can possibly answer your questions or help in the manufacture if they are still involved in conversions.

edited to add:
LeMag
201 Main
Fenton, MI 48430
(810) 634-1312
{converts M1 30 carbines to 45 Win. Mag. Also other conversions on Ex-Mil guns}
Link Posted: 7/12/2003 5:19:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/12/2003 5:22:44 PM EDT by Tye_G]

Originally Posted By wjshark:
Tye_G
I do not have a camera, so I can't post any pics. I believe the barrels were new, it is about 0.2" longer from end of barrel to front
end of the front sight band then on a GI carbine barrel(and 0.5" longer overall), and I can find no evidence of any combining of separate barrel pieces. I'm pretty sure LeMag gunsmith co. is still in business. I'll attempt to find them on google. They can possibly answer your questions or help in the manufacture if they are still involved in conversions.

edited to add:
LeMag
201 Main
Fenton, MI 48430
(810) 634-1312
{converts M1 30 carbines to 45 Win. Mag. Also other conversions on Ex-Mil guns}



WJShark

My thanks to you and I will try to get in contact with LeMag. If they are already set up to CNC Mill a correctly set up barrel then this is the perfect way to go. I already have all the other parts necessary for the completion of the build of the rifle and I will find out if they need me to send the bolt to have it re-faced to accept the 9mm head as well. The 5.7mm Johnson barrel I purchased about 5 years ago cost around $175.00. I hope that and because it is a special order item, I will not have to go too much over this.

Again, I would like to thank you for your responses and with hopes will complete this project soon.

Tye

edited to add:

Now back to the residents of the board with hopes for additional loading data for the 9mm Win Mag if anyone out there has any.
Link Posted: 7/12/2003 9:55:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/12/2003 9:59:41 PM EDT by wjshark]
Tye_G

If they are still in business(got the number off of google, don't know how old it is) I would appreciate it if you let me know. If not, I belive the other company doing carbine conversions was called LeFrance.
Link Posted: 7/14/2003 2:56:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wjshark:
Tye_G

If they are still in business(got the number off of google, don't know how old it is) I would appreciate it if you let me know. If not, I belive the other company doing carbine conversions was called LeFrance.



WJShark...

Again my thanks go to you. I will try to contact LeMag in the near future. I tried to locate your referenced "LeFrance" with no luck so far but will continue with my search. I have been waiting for some time to finalize this project and with hopes can see it conclusion before the end of the year. So much to do, so little time to do it in. However, we must take a rest every so often as I was able to take my eldest daughter to the range this past Sunday and had a fantastic time together. Our youth need our time to make sure they allow our use of firearms in the future. Our children are our future.

Again my thanks…
Tye
Link Posted: 7/14/2003 6:04:52 PM EDT
Tye_G

Sorry, spelled it wrong. Should be:

La France Specialties
P.O. Box 178211
San Diego, CA 92177
(619) 293-3373


Link Posted: 7/24/2003 5:40:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wjshark:
Tye_G

Sorry, spelled it wrong. Should be:

La France Specialties
P.O. Box 178211
San Diego, CA 92177
(619) 293-3373





WJShark...

Thanks and I will be looking into this source as soon as work comes to a more level status. Seems a network administrator is not allowed to "ever" have free time.

To all others I am still in need of any reloading data pertaining to this cartridge. I was able to find some and the ballistics seem to match that which I have been working with thus far.

An early thanks to all
Tye_G
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