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Posted: 6/10/2003 12:09:11 PM EDT
I recently had the chance to view a Mossberg Model 500A 12 gauge on which I could not locate a serial number. The shotgun is an older model - it only has one action bar on the slide/forearm, not two like most modern pump shotguns have.

There is absolutely no evidence the serial number has been obliterated; it’s just not there. All the Mossberg pump shotguns I’ve owned and seen had the serial number on the left side of the receiver (and in some cases on the bottom of the receiver near the model number). The bluing on the gun looks aged/worn and appears to be the original unaltered finish. I’ve never even heard of a gun without a serial number. I can’t find it anywhere! Any clues?
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 12:44:20 PM EDT
Sounds like someone manufactured their own receiver or did a real good job of eliminating the serial number.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 12:57:32 PM EDT
My first gun was a Remington .22 single shot bolt action rifle. I bought it new in the 1960s. It did not have a serial number either. Most old guns have serial numbers, but I don't think that it was actually required before the 1968 gun act crap went into effect. Watch-Six
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 1:09:55 PM EDT
My guess is that the gun was made in the 1960's. The guy who has it is an old bugger, and the long barrel has some sort of hideous-looking compensator on the end of it. You can turn it for different choke patterns - full, modified, etc. Seems to me that sort of choke was popular in the '60's.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 1:20:05 PM EDT
I have many guns that are pre-1968 that have NO serial Number. 12 guage shotguns, .22 rifles, even a handgun.

Av.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 1:34:34 PM EDT
Had an Enfield jungle carbine with no serial once. Kinda freaked me out before I realized it was ok.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 3:14:06 PM EDT
So how do you track the transfer to of these serial numberless guns on a 4473?
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 3:47:39 PM EDT
I was wondering about that myself...
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 4:06:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DamageInc:
I was wondering about that myself...



Like when you sell it to an out of state party and have to ship it to an FFL...
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 4:29:29 PM EDT
In the box for the number you put "none".
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 5:01:51 PM EDT
I've got a Remington Nylon 66 that I got used in 1968 with no serial number and a Savage single shot 12ga that also has no number. I bought a .22 skeleton rifle by Garcia or some one like that after GCA 68 was passed and Toys N' Things sold all of their guns. The skeleton rifle cost $7 and it was going to cost them more than that to serialize them and record the numbers.I read last month where the original(I believe the story was in Shot Gun News) skeletons are going for $200 now.(try and get it)
I think the GCA of 68 required serial numbers after it went into effect.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 10:43:59 PM EDT
i had a bolt action 20ga that had no SN. it was my dads and i was young and dumb and sold it to fund my first electric guitar. oops.
Link Posted: 6/11/2003 2:41:23 PM EDT
I've got a nice pair of AR's without serial numbers



My father gave me a 90 year old shotgun and pistol neither of which have serial numbers.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 9:36:44 AM EDT
I have a couple of rifles with no serial numer on the reciever. When the barrels wear out the gun will not have a SN.
Link Posted: 6/13/2003 8:47:02 PM EDT
So on AR's you can buy the upper and barrel without a FFL because the serial # is on the lower. On the stainless 10/22 receivers you need an FFL because the they have seial #'s but you can buy the trigger group without a FFL because it doesn't have the serial #. So on an AR lower with no serial # do you still need an FFL?
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 6:17:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/16/2003 6:18:57 AM EDT by Avalon01]
An AR with no S/N on the lower is probably a 80% lower that someone finished. If you build or finish your own reciver, and it is for personal use ONLY, then no S/N needs to be added.

However, if you want to sell that lower, then a S/N needs to be added.

I can't think of any situation where you could buy a completed lower with no S/N.

Av.
Link Posted: 6/16/2003 8:52:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Avalon01:
An AR with no S/N on the lower is probably a 80% lower that someone finished. If you build or finish your own reciver, and it is for personal use ONLY, then no S/N needs to be added.

However, if you want to sell that lower, then a S/N needs to be added.

I can't think of any situation where you could buy a completed lower with no S/N.

Av.



Avalon, you got most of that right.
An indivdual can make their own firearm for their own use and a privately made firearm is not required to have a serial number.
But the kicker is that firearm may never be sold or transferred except when it is passed down to an heir. The serial number has nothing to do with being able to sell it. Making it yourself is what makes it non-transferable.
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 4:40:31 PM EDT
I just scanned this so if you guys already said this forgive me, but I don't BELIEVE there is a requirement that a gun have a serial #. However, if the gun HAS a serial # I BELIEVE it is illegal to alter/destroy it.

Of course, I BELIEVE that ". . . the RIGHT of the people to keep and bear arms" is SUPPOSED to be PROTECTED by the Government, not MANIPULATED and DISTORTED by it too.

So what do I know?
Link Posted: 6/17/2003 7:14:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DamageInc:
I recently had the chance to view a Mossberg Model 500A 12 gauge on which I could not locate a serial number. The shotgun is an older model - it only has one action bar on the slide/forearm, not two like most modern pump shotguns have.

There is absolutely no evidence the serial number has been obliterated; it’s just not there. All the Mossberg pump shotguns I’ve owned and seen had the serial number on the left side of the receiver (and in some cases on the bottom of the receiver near the model number). The bluing on the gun looks aged/worn and appears to be the original unaltered finish. I’ve never even heard of a gun without a serial number. I can’t find it anywhere! Any clues?



I actually have this same gun. I inherited it from my Grandad. Mossburg with no serial number anywhere I can find. I don't have a clue!
Link Posted: 6/19/2003 6:00:03 PM EDT
Like several people posted, it was manufactured pre 1968. I have several Winchester and Marlin .22 rifles w/o serial numbers. If you call any of the "old" manufacturers and ask, they will tell you that many of their firearms were sold w/o numbers.

Brad
Link Posted: 6/22/2003 4:04:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rip_Roarin_Wacko:

Originally Posted By Avalon01:
An AR with no S/N on the lower is probably a 80% lower that someone finished. If you build or finish your own reciver, and it is for personal use ONLY, then no S/N needs to be added.

However, if you want to sell that lower, then a S/N needs to be added.

I can't think of any situation where you could buy a completed lower with no S/N.

Av.



Avalon, you got most of that right.
An indivdual can make their own firearm for their own use and a privately made firearm is not required to have a serial number.
But the kicker is that firearm may never be sold or transferred except when it is passed down to an heir. The serial number has nothing to do with being able to sell it. Making it yourself is what makes it non-transferable.


This is not correct. You cannot build a "homebuilt" firearm with the intent to sell it. There is nothing illegal about selling it, after you've had/used it a while ( no set time period).
Link Posted: 6/24/2003 8:37:39 AM EDT
Thanks for the replies everyone. The shotgun is now mine. Ya learn something new every damn day.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 4:05:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2003 4:17:08 AM EDT by Andreuha]

Originally Posted By Rip_Roarin_Wacko:
Avalon, you got most of that right.
An indivdual can make their own firearm for their own use and a privately made firearm is not required to have a serial number.
But the kicker is that firearm may never be sold or transferred except when it is passed down to an heir. The serial number has nothing to do with being able to sell it. Making it yourself is what makes it non-transferable.



So you mean to say that I can buy an 80% reciver, and a parts kit for said rifle, and make it myself? As in without registering or anything? Even in the peoples republic on new york (State)?
Edit: Is it OK to make two identical weapons, with the intent of keeping one and giving the other FOR FREE(for a freind/relative's B-day) as a gift?
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 6:16:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2003 6:19:19 AM EDT by Avalon01]

Originally Posted By Andreuha:

So you mean to say that I can buy an 80% reciver, and a parts kit for said rifle, and make it myself? As in without registering or anything?



Yes, but it will still be a post-ban weapon, and all NFA rules apply (no SBR or full-auto).


Even in the peoples republic on new york (State)?


It is still an AR-type rifle, so check your local laws.



Edit: Is it OK to make two identical weapons, with the intent of keeping one and giving the other FOR FREE(for a freind/relative's B-day) as a gift?



I am still unsure about wether or not you can part with a homebuilt firearm. I wrote a letter to the ATFE asking if I can finish an 80% lower, add a s/N, and then sell it. It might be awhile before I recive a response, however.

Av.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 6:33:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2003 7:02:49 AM EDT by Andreuha]

Originally Posted By Avalon01:
Yes, but it will still be a post-ban weapon, and all NFA rules apply (no SBR or full-auto).

It is still an AR-type rifle, so check your local laws.

I am still unsure about wether or not you can part with a homebuilt firearm. I wrote a letter to the ATFE asking if I can finish an 80% lower, add a s/N, and then sell it. It might be awhile before I recive a response, however.

Av.



OK.
The rifles im thinking of would be legal to own when I live. As I am in the city, I would make an AK at a freinds house outside the city, and let him keep it (B-day gift, actually), make another one later on when I move out.

As for NFA,(Seperate from above plans, For later interest) What about the transferable re-welds? Is it legal to re-weld ONE rifle (I want a PPSh series, a C&R actually - said buddy has C&R license(im getting one as soon as im of age), Seen the kits with cut recivers online).
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 9:35:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Andreuha:
As for NFA,(Seperate from above plans, For later interest) What about the transferable re-welds? Is it legal to re-weld ONE rifle (I want a PPSh series, a C&R actually - said buddy has C&R license(im getting one as soon as im of age), Seen the kits with cut recivers online).



DO NOT ATTEMPT TO REWELD A KIT!!!!

That is making a machine gun, plain and simple. NOT legal for the average Joe. And, even if you DID make it, it is a post-86, still illegal!

If you make a machine gun, C&R or not, reweld or not, you can go to a FEDERAL prision for up to 20 years.

Even when you have a C&R, you will still need a sign-off to buy a machine gun, and once again, all NFA laws still apply!

Av.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 9:38:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2003 9:38:44 AM EDT by Avalon01]

Originally Posted By Andreuha:
As I am in the city, I would make an AK at a friends house outside the city, and let him keep it (B-day gift, actually), make another one later on when I move out.



I don't think that is possible. You might be able to store it at his house, but it can not be given to him (gift or otherwise). When you move, you will have to take it with you.

Of course, that is assuming that personally build firearms can not be transferred to anyone else.

Av.
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 10:48:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/26/2003 10:51:25 AM EDT by Andreuha]

Originally Posted By Avalon01:

Originally Posted By Andreuha:
As for NFA,(Seperate from above plans, For later interest) What about the transferable re-welds? Is it legal to re-weld ONE rifle (I want a PPSh series, a C&R actually - said buddy has C&R license(im getting one as soon as im of age), Seen the kits with cut recivers online).



DO NOT ATTEMPT TO REWELD A KIT!!!!

That is making a machine gun, plain and simple. NOT legal for the average Joe. And, even if you DID make it, it is a post-86, still illegal!

If you make a machine gun, C&R or not, reweld or not, you can go to a FEDERAL prision for up to 20 years.

Even when you have a C&R, you will still need a sign-off to buy a machine gun, and once again, all NFA laws still apply!

Av.


Bah. Sucks.

O well. Anyone know how to make a SEMIAUTO(convert) PPSh 41?
And would THAT be legal?
Link Posted: 6/26/2003 10:58:51 AM EDT
OK!! I got it!!



(A7) Does the GCA prohibit anyone from making a handgun, shotgun or rifle? [Back]


With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a nonlicensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms.
However, a person is prohibited from making a semiautomatic assault weapon or assembling a nonsporting semiautomatic rifle or nonsporting shotgun from
imported parts. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and approval by ATF. An application to make a machinegun will not be
approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is being made for a federal or state agency. [18 U. S. C. 922( o), (r), (v), and 923, 27 CFR 178.39, 178.40, 178.41 and 179.105]



Great, I can make my own semi-auto as long as it adhires to laws otherwise in place for regular title 1 firearms. Also I can't make it with the purpouse of selling it- but it says nothing about giving it away

Shudda gone to that site sooner

Source:

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#a7
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 8:20:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/30/2003 8:20:31 AM EDT by Avalon01]

Originally Posted By Andreuha:
Great, I can make my own semi-auto as long as it adhires to laws otherwise in place for regular title 1 firearms. Also I can't make it with the purpouse of selling it- but it says nothing about giving it away



I don't think it will make a difference to the BATFE.

I read it as once you make it, you are stuck with it. No selling, giving, gifting, loaning, etc.

Av.
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