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Posted: 6/2/2003 3:41:49 PM EDT
Here in Texas it is legal (as I understand the law) to stow a loaded rifle in the cab of your vehicle, while it is not legal to do the same with a sidearm (unless CC permit holder.) The function of the rifle is to be both defensive and offensive in nature, as well as being suited to (2 as well as 4 leg) varmint control.

As a personal preference, I feel most comfortable and proficient with a bolt action rifle. They have also been, in my experience, more reliable and accurate than the semi-autos I have shot. For both ammo interchangability purposes (SHTF), hunting, simplification of my own ammunition stores, and cost to shoot reasons, I think that 5.56x45/.223 is a good choice for caliber.

Most bolt actions, however, have a 1 in 12" rifling twist for this caliber (Remington, Browning, Winchester). Which I understand is not sufficient to stabilize the projectile used by the M855 cartridge, which I like for its armor-defeating capabilities/cost. The only one I have been able to find that has a faster one is the Savage 11F, with a 1 in 9", which should be enough. I believe the Savage has an SAAMI spec chamber though. Can M855 be fired reasonably safely in this chamber? Or should it be reamed out to 5.56x45 specs? Or is this even possible?

For ease of handling within my vehicle, I would like to reduce the overall length as much as possible. 16" is the minimum barrel length for a rifle (without the hassle of tax stamp CLEO etc) correct? The barrel would need to be shortened, and recrowned at this length. Alternately, I was thinking it could be threaded for a flash hider which I think would be useful, especially on the shorter barrel. Bolt action rifles are not subject to any restrictions where this is concerned are they?

For sighting, ideally, I would like to have tritium illuminated ghost ring or peep sights. I am used to them, and like the long sight radius enjoyed with the rear sight mounted far back on the reciever which will be beneficial with the shortened barrel. I don't trust glass sights (have seen too many scopes or their mounts fail) or electronic gizmos enough to be knocked around and exposed to the extreme temperature swings (Texas heat!) and vibrations (3/4 ton 4x4) they would be subjected to in my truck. Does anyone produce a sight system like this that could be mounted to this rifle?

Does anyone know of a gunsmith that could pull this off? What kind of cost would I be looking at for the modifications? They sound pretty simple to me, at least. Shorten the barrel and thread for a flash hider or recrown, and install the sights if that's too difficult for me to undertake. Am I completely off-track and there's a rifle set up sort of like this one from the factory?

Sorry for all the questions! You can answer as many (or as few) as you'd like :) Thanks in advance for any replies!
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 6:03:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/2/2003 6:07:45 PM EDT by Sukebe]
Are you dead set on the 5.56mm? Consider a Winchester M94 in .30-30 you can get it with a 16 inch barrel. Marlin (I prefer over the Winchester) now makes the M336Y "Spikehorn". It come with a 16.5 inch barrel. You can get a synthetic stock set and a scout scope mount as well. That sounds like a pretty good truck gun to me. It would be a lot cheaper than all the custom work your talking about. If you pack a wheel gun, consider the Winchester M94 "Trapper" in .357 mag. Then you have one ammo type for both guns. You Texicans have always seen the logic in that. If you don't mind the odd caliber, consider a Surplus Enfield No. 5 carbine in .303 British from Southern Ohio Gun. The No. 5 has a flash suppressor, a bayonet leg and a detachable 10 round magazine. Though it is best loaded from the top with stripper clips. The Enfield action was the best combat bolt action ever made. Try to find a Spanish FR8 Mauser in 7.62X51mm NATO. It has a flash suppressor and G3 type sights IIRC. If you just have to have the gun you describe most people around here would recommend Kurts Kustom Firearms. Contact him in the Industry Forum.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 6:28:11 PM EDT
Heck,
One of the Gibbs "Conquest" carbines might do nicely. Enfield action in .308. Personally, I'd actually go for a Mosin Nagant M44 carbine. Cheap, tough as nails, powerful cartridge and accurate. If something bad happens and you lose it or it gets stolen you're only out like $60.


Rich
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 7:24:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/2/2003 7:31:34 PM EDT by psychotr]
Thanks for the replies. I had thought about the lever gun route and they are still a consideration. I like the fact that peep sights seem to be readily available, and the larger magazine. I'm not sure about giving up the effective range by moving to 30-30 or a pistol cartridge. I don't currently have a rifle chambered for 30-30 though, so it would be a new caliber to stock. How do the soft point 30-30 hunting type rounds do on body armor? I do own a couple of .45LC revolvers and have toyed with the idea of a rifle chambered for same, and will probably get one in the future.(You have us Texicans pegged) I'm just not sure that it's ideal for this use, as it's range would be somewhat limited, and hits to armor would end up as little more than blunt trauma.

I had not considered the Enfield rifles, that is a rather interesting suggestion. I seem to recall hearing some negative things about the Gibbs carbines, though I must admit to not remembering anything specific! What are the iron sights like on these rifles?

Cost is certainly a factor here, but so is reliability. As to the Mosin, is the imported ammo for them any good? I seem to remember them being pretty long. Can they be shortened easily like a Mauser or Enfield? What are the issue sights like on these?

thanks, and keep 'em comin :)
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 7:40:22 PM EDT
One minor thing...what's with all the concerns about use against armor?

Anyway, all the criticisms I've heard about the Gibbs stuff is that it's "bubba'd" up milsurps. For what you want I'd imagine it would be fine.

Mosin shoots the 7.62x54. Very Similar to 30.06. Put it this way, the 7.62X54 is still in service. Ir works very well and ammo is cheap. The Mosin M44 carbine is a great little gun. 18" barrel. Kicks a wee bit but is manageable. With the right ammo talk about a fireball!!! There's a company called Mojo that makes peep-style sights for milsurps. I got one for my bro-in-law's Mosin and he likes it alot.

You certainly can't beat the price!


Rich
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 7:55:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Trumpet:
Personally, I'd actually go for a Mosin Nagant M44 carbine. Cheap, tough as nails, powerful cartridge and accurate. If something bad happens and you lose it or it gets stolen you're only out like $60.


Rich



That is what I use, five rounds loaded, lots of power, and small size.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 8:30:55 PM EDT
I live in Texas and my trunk gun went from an AK to an AR. Why did you not consider an AR for a trunk gun? It will be as accurate as a bolt gun for practical purposes at any range you will be shooting at and has 30 rounds on tap so I never had a spare magazine. The police here dont care about it either. Removing an AR from your choices is a bad move IMHO. If you dont want an AR consider a SAR 3 with an after market peep, Weiger mag and Red Star trigger. It should hold about 2 MOA with factory ammo.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 8:40:16 PM EDT
An AR would be a great choice but I wouldn't want to risk getting a high dollar rifle stolen. There are lots of surplus C&R rifles that are under $200.00 that will fit the bill.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 8:54:23 PM EDT
I would recomend a Bushmaster M-17s bullpup. It was a 30" overall length but maintains a 21" barrel. Mine is at least as accurate as my ARs and much more manuverable.
Link Posted: 6/2/2003 8:55:45 PM EDT
Well there arent many 5.56x45 bolt action guns available. lol.

You could buy a Remington 700 VS in .223. This probably isnt reccomened but Ive found in bolt rifles if you can shut the bolt itll shoot period.

I would reccomend a Marlin lever action. Not very scary but a solid gun overall. They have a bunch of models in different calibres. mostly in .45-70 government, a bigass slow cartridge but itll kill what it hits.



Link Posted: 6/3/2003 3:12:42 PM EDT
Bad term. Call it a Lottery Gun, we have lottery in Texas. One day that gun will be lost in a theft lottery.
Mosin Nagant or a China 12g. coach gun. You will feel better losing those.
GG
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 4:29:23 PM EDT
SKS - basically, a semi-auto 30-30.
Link Posted: 6/3/2003 5:04:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/3/2003 5:05:39 PM EDT by TomJefferson]
Semi auto mag fed anything will draw the crack heads to your truck like bees to honey.

I second either a used lever action, cowboy like, or Polish Nagant which is a small frame excellent shooter and $50.

You could go Billy Jack with an O3.
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 11:23:07 AM EDT
My favorite is the original Enfield Jungle Carbine in .303. 10 rounds of major .30cal fast (fastest bolt around), strippers reload it quickly, extra mags can be carried, but are not real quick to change...fairly short and light and tough as nails. It will come with a peep and a flip up, adjustable rear that goes farther than you will ever be able to justify trying a shot. The thump is not too bad, and there are both military and commercial softpoints readily available. You don't need Gibbs...the Brits knew what they were doing with this little gem. Try one and see!
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 11:55:15 AM EDT
^^ The Enfield is a good idea but a little long and to mess with one of these things is a sin. You forgot one thing though; no self defense gun is complete without a BAYONET. Remember LOW, HIGH, TWIST.
Link Posted: 6/4/2003 12:26:53 PM EDT
I give another vote for a lever .30-.30.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 6:01:32 PM EDT
Since one of your major concerns is penetration, why not go with a 30-06 bolt action? You can still buy black tip 30-06 at reasonable cost and that stuff will go thru a rail road tie at 100yds.
A 16" bbl will be a bit loud and you will want a flash suppressor, but if its penatration you want..go with the 06'.
OTOH, if you hand load, you could get a Ruger compact in 308, pull the bullets from 30-06 black tip, load it in a 308 and have the best of both worlds.

If your dead set on a .223 why not get a mini-14? They have excellent iron sights and will take a beating.

My personal "truck gun" is a beat to shit SKS. The first three rounds are soft point and the rest are steel core.
I figure if I need more than three rounds then I'll be happy to have the extra penetration that the steel core round provides.

Just some idea's to throw around.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 7:34:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/5/2003 7:36:49 PM EDT by Sukebe]

Originally Posted By ikor:
My favorite is the original Enfield Jungle Carbine in .303. 10 rounds of major .30cal fast (fastest bolt around), strippers reload it quickly, extra mags can be carried, but are not real quick to change...fairly short and light and tough as nails. It will come with a peep and a flip up, adjustable rear that goes farther than you will ever be able to justify trying a shot. The thump is not too bad, and there are both military and commercial softpoints readily available. You don't need Gibbs...the Brits knew what they were doing with this little gem. Try one and see!



SOGsouthernohiogun.com sells original No. 5 Jungle Carbines for $159.00. The Ammunition Store www.ammunitionstore.com is selling WWII surplus .303 British AP
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 7:58:10 PM EDT
How about a used Savage? Toss it in a folding stock (choate makes 'em I think), chop the bbl. to 16in. and bam, there ya go. Or, as always, the venerable sks. Cheap, reliable, compact, same stock style as bolts, sounds like a truck gun to me. HTH
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 8:19:11 PM EDT
BE CAREFUL of WWII .303, it corrosive. If you shoot it clean your gun with soap and water then regulary once a day for three days afterward.
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 9:00:37 PM EDT
I'm trying to figure out the same thing. Here's where I'm at, so far...

Enfield Jungle Carbine: Price is right, size is right, .303 is a good round but can be corrosive and also can be hard to find locally if you need more.

Lever action in 30-30: $200 for an OK shooter, maybe less. You can get a 16" barrel.

SKS: 30-30 ballistics, or close to it. Under $200 for a good shooter. Rugged as hell, maybe moreso than a lever gun. Ammo is dirt cheap & in most boondock gun stores. The chrome barrel (not in Yugo's) is a big truck gun plus for me.

Spanish FR-8: Good ones go past $300, shooters around $200. Ammo no problem, othewise a lot like an Jungle Carbine in feel. Neat & not too common.

Russian M1938/M1944: 30-06 ballistics, kind of. Identical except M1944 has a bayonet & might be made a little later. I'd feel comfortable with it for just about anything smaller than brown or white bears. Arsenal refinished for about $100 or less...get your C&R license. Ammo is cheap, but not in most gun stores and it's all corrosive.

AR: To me, too much lost of the truck is burgled. It's my current truck gun, but she comes in the house at night; the M1944 stays in the truck.

Don't know if this helps or confuses...hope it helps. I'd think seriously about the SKS.

-hanko
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 9:10:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/5/2003 9:13:48 PM EDT by Andreuha]
With a C&R ($30 to get last tiem I checked, lasts 3 years), a M44 Nagant would run you in the area of $42, plus shipping from this place:

www.gunsnstuff.net/p/t1.html
(Wholesale firearm and acc. distributor)
(edit: Page 24, left column. Russian M44, $42.95)
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 9:26:49 PM EDT
www.remingtonle.com/rifle/700p.htm

Remington 20" LTR has a 1x9 in .223

I think the other suggestions here are better though.

get a Marlin .30-30 with ghost ring tritium sights or something
maybe a Rem7600
Link Posted: 6/5/2003 10:58:39 PM EDT
It sounds as if you know exactly what you want....I am sure that you would not have trouble finding a commpetant gunsmith in your area who could pull off a customization and conversion of a .223 bolt gun like you described.

Check out Ashley Outdoors for sights...

Another thing to consider is the caliber of guns you already know...

t
Link Posted: 6/6/2003 3:05:14 AM EDT
Ever consider an M-1 carbine? Not much stopping power, but has obvious advantages.
Link Posted: 6/8/2003 2:58:00 AM EDT
Maby a Puma lever action in .454Casull, or a Ruger Deerfield Carbine in .44Mag. Has 4rnd rotary magazine. Maby a Mini 30 also? Cheap ammo, chambered for 7.62x39. Good luck. Jason
Link Posted: 6/9/2003 7:01:27 PM EDT
For what you want I'd try to find a used remington 7600 in .30-06. You can get a ghost ring set-up for it I'm sure, and it'll do anything you need it to.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 5:06:05 PM EDT
I hear M1 Carbine with 110 gr JHPs meet FBI's requirements for terminal ballistics. (check out ammo section)

M1 Carbine is a good little old fun gun. A bit expansive than others but not THAT expansive either.
Link Posted: 6/10/2003 5:12:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 455SD:
For what you want I'd try to find a used remington 7600 in .30-06. You can get a ghost ring set-up for it I'm sure, and it'll do anything you need it to.



I'd second that. I personally have a Remington 7400 with synthetic furniture and 3 10 round mags of 3006 fmj ball ammo.

Never fails, always ready, hard hittin, lots of ammo. Did I say accurate?
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