Here's a point to ponder.  

Most folks who have a LTR are reporting sub-moa groups.  

Why would I spend $3000 on a custom rifle that'll shoot 1/2 moa when I stand a damn good possibility that my LTR (on layaway <g>) will do the same thing?  And if it doesn't, I can sell it and buy another one that probably will, statistically speaking.

Other than snob appeal, 1/2moa is 1/2 moa.

Good choice. My 700 PSS (.308) and 700 VS (.22-250) are both tack drivers. I imagine the LTR is also.

You'd only spend $3000 if you didn't know any better.

In answer to your question why?

Who was that said you had to buy a custom rifle in the first place?  Any Rem. model 700 retains the option to have mods made to it for far less than you think, for instance:

1. How about a longer barrel (as LTR is 20", not so hot for long range) your layaway rifle will in no-way compete or compare to a 26" or longer barrel at ranges in excess of 500 yards.

2. A faster than the LTR 1/12 twist rate allowing for heavier, higher BC bullets, both of which, again will show up past the 500 yard line.

3. Or how about just considering the fact that Krieger and other high dollar barrels put 1/4 MOA groups distinctly within the range of possibility.

All of the above will make and extend your range considerably over the short barreled rifle ya got on layaway now and for a cost by a competent gunsmith of under $800.

So just because you see no reason for folks to spend more than you have for a rifle, it does not mean that for some of us THERE aren't reasons to expect and want more than some off-the-shelf manufactured rifle.

Of course all of this is just my opinion,
Mike

Quoted: You'd only spend $3000 if you didn't know any better. In answer to your question why? Who was that said you had to buy a custom rifle in the first place?  Any Rem. model 700 retains the option to have mods made to it for far less than you think, for instance: 1. How about a longer barrel (as LTR is 20", not so hot for long range) your layaway rifle will in no-way compete or compare to a 26" or longer barrel at ranges in excess of 500 yards.

Maybe... sort of depends on the load.

2. A faster than the LTR 1/12 twist rate allowing for heavier, higher BC bullets, both of which, again will show up past the 500 yard line. 3. Or how about just considering the fact that Krieger and other high dollar barrels put 1/4 MOA groups distinctly within the range of possibility. All of the above will make and extend your range considerably over the short barreled rifle ya got on layaway now and for a cost by a competent gunsmith of under $800. So just because you see no reason for folks to spend more than you have for a rifle, it does not mean that for some of us THERE aren't reasons to expect and want more than some off-the-shelf manufactured rifle. Of course all of this is just my opinion, Mike

Oh, I'm not against custom work, and if it makes a shooter happy, by all means go for it.  Custom barrels are worth the money for some applications, but to me, spending $500-800 to have a custom barrel fitted to gain .25MOA isn't worth it.  You aren't going to be able to hold to such an increment from a field shooting position anyway.

For target work, exclusively, sure.

First, depends on what you are happiest with.
I have a custom barrel on a Ruger #1 chambered for .260 Rem. I also have a re-worked Mk1, Mod3 chambered in .444. It's fun to have something different.
Spend $3000 on a custom rifle?? Only if I were rich and famous. I am neither of these.
Shoot a factory LTR over 500 yards?? Why not? With the right handloads, should be no problem.

Here's the biggest reason why I would consider a custom rifle over a factory rifle. (Note: I have not gone custom yet)


The 1/2MOA groups are usually guaranteed performance.  Meaning that gun will leave the gunmaker with a gauarnatee that says it will shoot 1/2MOA.  What happens if you get a 1.5MOA LTR off the shelf?  You would need to sell it and get another one.

That said....I have a PSS and a Sendero that are unmodified.

Ed

When a Smith put a custom barrel on a rifle the tolerances are held to a much tighter standard. i.e .0001 concentricity for chamber and tendon. Standard Rem on a good day is .001 .( I have seen chamber crooked and rough that were new from the box) The throat is cut to min standard or other if the customer wants to roll his own loads. Extras include bolt rails are polished. Lug that are lapped, so both surfaces touch. Not just one lug like a standard production Rem. You can feel the difference. And the  guarantee that the rifle is going to shoot on a bad day .50 MOA. I personally view each one that leaves here as one of my kids.

The biggest thing of having a custom job is knowing that the guy that did the work had pride in what he did. Not just some guy on an assembly line throwing things together.  

I hear ya...but what if it shoots like that out of the box?  If it won't, then you have it blueprinted and balanced...but if it does, it's kind of a waste of $.

But the word is IF. And how accurate is acceptable to you? Remember .5 MOA at 100Yard is 3 inches at 600yards. If your hunting and most shots will be 100-200yards then your good to go. But lest say you want to shoot long range. At 800 yards the added accuracy in needed, and there fore justified. I have a FN Mauser that I built up with a heavy barrel and the works it will shoot sub .25 MOA. Its fun to cut .50 dia rebar at 100 yards with 2 shots through the same hole, And shoot the staple’s off the stand that are holding your buddies target up (sorry Stealth).

And custom guns can be had for way under $3000.

So groovy on your purchase! And remember treat her well and she will treat you well!

Quoted: I hear ya...but what if it shoots like that out of the box?  If it won't, then you have it blueprinted and balanced...but if it does, it's kind of a waste of $.

IF you get the ones like you and I have (as mine are sub MOA too) then you are good to go, but some people don't like chancing it.  Some people need to know that it will be .25 to .50 MOA.

Also, you can get a "custom" rifle with guarantee built up for less than $2000.  Especially if you start with your own action.

Ed  

I've got a 700P, and am getting sub MOA easily.  But, there is a guy I've gotten to know at my local range.  He has a custom M24 kind of clone, only with a Hart barrel instead of the Mike Rock.

Anyway, this gun is one hell of a performer.  He always amazes me, because he can pull that gun out, aim with cold barrel and his MK4 M3, and hit about 1/2" from bullseye at 200 yards.  Then immediately rattle off 3 consecutive shots in about a minute, and downrange it's just one hole getting bigger.  Sorry, but my stock 700P (and it's operator) can't do that.  From what I've seen, the custom route can improve your difference between your cold barrel shot and your fouled barreled shots greatly.

Personally, I'm getting about 1" to a 1.25" diff between the two.  He's touching holes with his.  Is that worth the extra cash....for some, and for some maybe not.  After I get a lot more rounds downrange with my current barrel, I will be going the custom route on this rig.  

Just like anything else, the cost/gain ratio of eeking out that extra last bit of performance goes way up.  Nothing new here.  The same is true if you're talking about cars, PC's, etc...

Rocko

Quoted: Just like anything else, the cost/gain ratio of eeking out that extra last bit of performance goes way up.  Nothing new here.  The same is true if you're talking about cars, PC's, etc... Rocko

It's like speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?  Pretty soon you're back to spending a fortune seeing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

What kind of shooting will you be doing?
If you are a SWAT officer and you need 1/2MOA or less rifle to shoot a bad guy hiding behind a hostage then go for it.  Maybe your custom tack driver is definitely needed.  Innocent person's life depends on the accuracy of your rifle.  If you are just a weekend shooter like me, would you need a $3000 custom rifle?  I doubt it.  Just because you own a $3000 custom rifle doesn't mean you'll be shooting sub MOA.  That all depends on proper technique (training), right ammo, good optic, etc.  If you have $3000 to blow away, get a good scope, reloading machine, attend precision rifle course, and buy a Remington 700PSS.  

Why spend $750 for an LTR when you can build a custom. This is what I did.

Used Remington 700 ADL in .223...$225 at gun show

New takeoff HS Precision stock with bottom metal...$240 at gun show

Shilen threaded and short chambered 1/9 twist barrel from Brownells...$165...beats the hell out of the $18 (their cost) factory Remington barrels.

Brownell's moly/teflon gun finish...$18


My friend has an action wrench, reamer and the go/no go guages. He also cut it to 20" and threaded the barrel on his lathe 1/2 x 28 for a Vortex flash hider.

Sounds like "Why buy a Les Baer, Ed Brown or Wilson Combat when my Kimber / Springer / Wesson goes bang is an accurate gun?"


It is like anything else, the deeper in you go, the deeper in you get.

Lil things make a difference at a distance.

Haven't gotten there yet, but I am sure I will in time.

well if its a range queen and you carry it in a $100 drag bag that will never actually get dragged then i guess its fine. i have a PSS, and i also have an M40A1 clone built by a real live MOS 2112 who worked at the RTE shop. he also built my MEUSOC .45 clone. and let me tell you. the M40 clone will take punishment and abuse that would leave a PSS in shambles. its a hard-use item. if you shoot on a 200yd range at a local club and never shoot downhill, climb with the weapon, drag it through mud, toss it on the ground etc etc. the PSS is fine. its a good rifle and represents a signifigant value but when you buy a $700 rifle you get $700 performance.

On the abuse an M40 can take vs. a PSS or M24. The M40 is bedded in a McMillan stock. The Army specifically requested an aluminum bedding block so there would be no fear of breaking the brittle bedding in the field. Yes, for the most part bedding shoots better than the aluminum block but it can be brittle. The M40 and M24 both have steel bottom metal the PSS uses aluminum. The M40 and M24 both use 8-40 screws on the sight base. The PSS has the factory 6-40. Did I miss anything?

Quoted: On the abuse an M40 can take vs. a PSS or M24. The M40 is bedded in a McMillan stock. The Army specifically requested an aluminum bedding block so there would be no fear of breaking the brittle bedding in the field. Yes, for the most part bedding shoots better than the aluminum block but it can be brittle. The M40 and M24 both have steel bottom metal the PSS uses aluminum. The M40 and M24 both use 8-40 screws on the sight base. The PSS has the factory 6-40. Did I miss anything?

Okay..My smith is drilling and retapping my LTR to 8-40 while it's still there in the shop.  So if I replace the bottom metal with steel, $180 or so from Brownells, I fail to see what else would be different in terms of ruggedness.  I'm using Badger rings and base.

Badger also makes really nice steel floorplates. They are expensive and will require a little inletting on your HS Precision stock with a mill to make fit.

there is a reason why the Corps specifies handbuilt rifles. anyone in or around the Corps know about the institutionalized frugality of the Marine Corps. theyre friggin cheap! and if all they had to do was take a PSS and re-bed it then thats what the issue rifle would be. by the time you take your PSS and  re-stock, re-bed, trigger job, Mil-spec trigger guard, re-barrel and add good glass you could have had an M40 clone.  im not slamming the PSS its an incredible performer for its price point. but comparing it to an M40 is laughable.  its like a car. why buy a Toyota camry with everything on it when a geo metro will get you back and forth to work just the same. both get good mileage, but one gives you more functionality, reliabilty, and value. sometimes you have ot pay more to get more.

Polyak and DvlDog make two very strong points.  Poly's point about the cold bore shot is probably the most important one.  Knowing that your rifle will put the first (cold bore) shot EXACTLY where you aim, whether it's 100 degrees or 10 degrees, rain or shine etc. is very important.  After all that first shot is the most important anyway.  Most factory rifles will not do that as well as a professionally assembledd stick.  AS far as Devldogs's comments about toughness.  Yep, that's a biggie too.  Now if the stick's just gonna be shot off the bench, it probably won't matter much.  But if you want to go to some of the schools out there (Storm Mountain, Badlands etc.) it might make the difference between a great experience and going home with your tail between your legs and a broken rifle.  That's the less risky possibilty, imagine if there are lives on the line.
Don't get me wrong, I have two PSS's and they both shoot great, but even after being 'smithed at Hart, they still have their little idiosynchrosies (sp?).  Those idiosynchrasies are all but eliminated with a properly built custom stick.
Later,
Rich  

if your are just bench shooint the ltr or pss is fine.  i would spend more on a new trigger and great optics.  those will make more of a difference than any other items.  shot an ltr the other weekend with a shilen comp trigger.  put 10 shots in a whole about the 1/4 of the size of a dime.  by far im not a great shot, but the optics and the trigger made on hell of a difference.

that's a hell of a group (I assume 100 yards?)

Here's the scope I'm getting:
Leupold Cat. no. 53672 Leupold Illuminated 3.5-10x40 Matte, Long Range, 30mm, M3, Mil-Dot

I have a great smith who can do a good job on the factory trigger.  He says he can get it down to a safe 2.5 pounds.

QS

Lojack,
Isn't 1/4 the size of a dime SMALLER than .30 cal?  I sure hope that group is with a .223, otherwise you might have some 'splainin' to do .
Quiet,
Unless if you're getting it at a really good price, skip the illuminated reticle.  Yeah it looks cool, but it no workie so good (read the review on snipercountry).  Instead just get the mil-dot version from SWFA for $699 or get the duplex reticle, and send it out to Premiere and have 'em install a gen II reticle.  
Later,
Rich

It's very possible to get a 1/4 group.  The way to correctly measure group size is to measure from the outermost points of the group and subtract one bullet diameter.  This gives you the center-to-center dispersion, and explains how you can have a .25 group with bullets .30 in diameter.

QS

Also, I believe an illuminated reticle to be important for extreme low light shooting.  I have an ACOG and I like it a lot...no reason not to have it on a precision rifle.

I'm fully aware that 1/4-inch groups are totally possible.  That wasn't his claim.  He claimed "less than 1/4 the size of a dime", and a 10 shot group at that.  If that's at 100yds, he should be shooting benchrest comps.  IF it truly is a 10-shots-in-less-than-1/4-of-a-dime size groups, I wanna see it.

As far as illuminated reticles go, ACOG's and "regular" scopes are two different animals.  The full reticle on the Loopie LR's is not illuminated, only the little middle "X" center of the crosshairs is illuminated.  Basically that means you can't use the rangefinding features at twilight or dusk which render it somewhat useless in a lowlight shituation. ACOG's are (compared to the M3 series) shorter range scopes where visibility in low light situations is enhanced a lot with the "scope".  However, if you're shooting at a range where the M3 is necessary (instead of the ACOG), the Illuminated reticle on the M3 isn't gonna help you and you should probably pass on the shot anyway. Also consdier this; I've been seeing an awful lot of M3 and M1 Illuminated reticles for sale lately (and VERY little "standard" reticles), generally not a good sign.  Unless if you're getting it at a price that's too good to refuse, I'd opt for the standard mil-dot reticle (or get the Premier Gen II)and spend the rest of the money on ammo.  Whatever floats yer boat.

Rich

if i can find the paper, i will scan it to post.  and yes it was at 100 yrds. shooting from a bull bag with hand loads.  the scope on it, believe it or not was a tasco world class 6x22(i think)x40.  it has super fine cross hairs with a small dot in the center. those scopes are sweet escially on a 223 like the ltr i was shooting.  i found that scope at a fun show for 125.  the super fine cross hairs and the high mag was a winner for me.

Ahhhh well there you go.  I assumed you were shooting .308 factory ammo off a bipod.  With good .223 handloads (heck factory too)and a bull bag, that's more like it.  Good shootin'.
Later,
Rich

Why buy "custom" and pay $1000s to someone like Iron Brigade Armory?

Because a rifle, like any other piece of equipment, is not a collection of parts.  They must be fitted together and installed properly.  This is what you pay the 'smith for, his knowledge and experience in doing this.

That said, some rifles are great from the factory.  If you have one that meets your needs, don't bother sending it to the smith.  

If I had a LTR or PSS, and all I wanted to do is shoot paper for fun, I don't see any reason I should worry that my rifle isn't custom.  

But, if I was seriously shooting Long Range or F-Class (EVERYONE who has a precision rifle should at least shoot F-class for fun!!!:) ).  It's not a matter of 3-shot group sizes.  

It's a matter of consistently shooting a high score with 10 shots and not having to blame the rifle.  And, I'll bet you that two LTRs which shoot the same, even if they shoot well, one will shoot better after you send it to Iron Brigade Armory.  

My $0.02

On the topic of illuminated reticles, I've got the 3.5-10x40 30mm LR M1 illuminated on my 700P.  The problems Leupold had before with the reticles was fixed for the 2002 models (maybe it's the old ones you see a lot of for sale).  Also, they moved the location of the illumination control from the 12 o'clock position to the 10 o'clock position, so you can see your knobs better infront of it, and they've threaded the objective housing as well.

It's true, only the center cross lights up, but I like it.  There is a very small window of time in the morning and evening when it would be useful.  But in the that window of time, it could mean everything for a hunter.  No matter what your hunting.  But, the illumination is definately NOT a necessity, it comes down to personal opinion on it's use.

The only thing I don't like about the illuminated reticle that makes me rethink my decision from time to time, is that www.premierreticles.com cant change out the reticles on the illuminated scopes.  I would love to have their highly regarded Gen2 Mildot reticle installed.  Oh well.

I didn't realize the center portion was all that was illuminated.  It's better than nothing, I suppose?

QS

Here's 2 crappy pics of the illuminated reticle.  I've been meaning to try and get some better one's outside, but just haven't yet.  So this is all I got, you should be able to get the jist of what it looks like though.

So, do you think it was worth the money, or not?

I just received the one I ordered, I sure as hell hope it's worth it.. :)

I have a luminous "Marine" mil-dot reticle that Premier Reticles installed on my old 3.5-10x40 Vari-III several years ago. The only portion of the reticle that has the luminous material (like watch hands) is the heavy outside duplex portion (as found on the Marine mil-dot). I have yet to be in a situation where this is helpful. You have to guess where the middle of the reticle is. How is the gen. II different?

FISRT: The Gen 2 is first focal plane.  This means that you can accurately mil dot range at any magnification setting.  No more having to ensure the 3.5 to 10 is cranked all the way up to use the ranging feature (or more often overestimating the distance because the scope was at 8x instead of 10x).

SECOND: The "dots" are perfectly round and there are tic marks at 1/2 mil increments between the dots.  More precise ranging and faster too.

THE BIG BONUS: Soon Premier is supposed to offer this first focal plane reticle GEN 2 reticle conversion on the 4.5-14x LR scope and the 6.5 to 20x LR as well.  Then we will have higher magnification without any disadvantage in my humble opinion.

Quoted: So, do you think it was worth the money, or not?

I think that's up to the buyer, it really is a personal preference, IMO.  Would I do it again, probably not, so that I could get the GEN2 Mildot.  But, if I didn't care about the Gen2 Mildot, yeah, I would get the illuminated reticle again.

So does anyone make an Illuminated Mil-dot scope where the entire reticle is illuminated?

Seems to me that if the dots aren't illuminated, I might as well not get illuminated, unless you have another way of finding the range.

Quoted: So does anyone make an Illuminated Mil-dot scope where the entire reticle is illuminated? Seems to me that if the dots aren't illuminated, I might as well not get illuminated, unless you have another way of finding the range.

Nightforce NXS.  The whole reticle lights up (red).  

The mil-dots are actually not solid; that is, they are circles with smaller dots placed inside and they glow like little halos.  

I've found that the light gathering ability of the Nightforce almost is too good.  That is to say, you must turn the brightness setting on the reticle WAAY down or the illuminaton overshadows the field of view in low light.  I have used the scope in near darkeness and could actually see BETTER through the scope than with the naked eye.  It was at that point the regular black reticle was too dark to see and the illumation came into play.  I have the brightness turned down low and can just barely see the reticle AND the target at the same time.  Works beautifully for that last shot you just have to make right before total darkness.

Other than that, I have no use for illumination when the black reticle is so easily seen.  This would  apply to a precison rifle only though.  I can see a use for an illuminated dot or chevron in a CQB scope however.  

Nice thread guys.  But we got a bit off track, not that I mind discussing good optics.  

Back to: Why spend $3000 on a custom rifle when you can get a Factory Remmy PSS for $700.

I was of the "a good factory gun is all you need" school until about two years ago.  About 3 yeard ago I wanted to get into a rifle capable of long range (500 yards or so) accuracy in 308 caliber.  I am left-handed, so my choices were few.  I ordered a new Rem 700 VS/LH (varmint synthetid left hand).  It has the HS Precision stock that seemed capable, a medium/heavy 26" barrel.  I mounted a Loppy 3.5-10 Tactical scope and broke in the barrel properly, then began working up a good handload and shooting groups.  Even with factory match ammo the best I ever got was about 3/4" groups (5 shots at 100 yards, benchrested) but the average with its favored ammo was about 1.25"  I tried another scope, different base and rings, had the trigger worked over to me lighter and smooth, but with no improvement at all.

Rether than experiment with barrels, bedding, action truing all with no guarantee of improvement if done individually, I opted to sell it as is and get a custom built 308.

I selected NorCal Precision and he made me a rifle exactly to my requirements.  The stock is a McMillan A4 Tactical unit to my length of pull (without spacers) with a Pachmayer decellerator pad, custom weight stock and of course left hand. Since these stocks are made one at a time there is no charge for "having your way".  The barrel is a Kreiger, length, twist, and taper as I desired (and yes I paid for fluting too).  I had the 'smith fit a Badger Ordinance tapered base and send their rings as well.

The thing shoots superbly!  It is hard to work up handloads because most anything shoots well.  However it's favorite diet is 175 grain Sierra MatchKing bullets with Varget powder.

Some guys 'get lucky' with Factory rifles, mine was not one of those.  I hear many claim they are shooting factory rifles to the same accuracy I gaet with my custom rifle, perhaps.

In addition to top accuracy I have a rifle that fits me better, stays on target better between shots (better stock shape IMHO), barrel cleans up quicker, the accurized action FEELS better, and probably just as important as all the rest combined, gives me confidence so that I shoot better.  My rifle cost $2400 including new action and about $250 worth of scope base and rings.  I suppose I could have bought 3 factory rifles for that amount and maybee one would shoot nearly as well, but none of them would feel anything like my rifle in recoil control and trigger pull.

Okay...here's the latest update.  After further consideration, I decided that the illuminated center wasn't that big a deal to me, since you can illuminate the entire post with a mini-lightstick (if you know how).  My dealer had a MK4-M3 6x with mildots that I'd had my eye on, and after playing with it, I decided that the ultra-clarity and toughness of the Mark 4 was worth it.  I think a fixed 10x is too much magnification, so this was perfect.  Now, to get more $ and get this rig out of there!

I was considering the LTR till I had a chance to see one at the local gunstore.  The trigger did not feel very good to me, and I knew it would need to be adjusted or upgraded.  I heard about the variability of accuracy, and I am not into the lottery, so I ended up getting an HS Precision RDR (rapid deployment rifle) on clearance special from CFIARMS in Texas for $1550.  They guarantee 1/2" groups at 100 yds, and the factory target was 0.29" with Fed GMM. It has a 24" barrel, and even though I am a newbee to precision shooting, I get some groups in the 5/16" to 3/8" (maybe 1 out of 3) range with an average of 5/8 in. with Fed 168 gr GMM and Remington 168 gr Match ammo. I attribute bad groups to my inexperience with the gun. I think it is very well made, solid, durable, cool to look at too.

I like my Leupold 3.5-10x40 M3 scope, but the only down side is the rather coarse elevation adjustment: it can be a bit too high or a bit too low: it is 1 moa in the elevation with each click. Windage is 1/2 moa per click.
Here is the factory target photo and my best group:
http://www.hunting-pictures.com/members/faldoc/Factory%20test%20target.jpg
http://www.hunting-pictures.com/members/faldoc/My%20best%20target.jpg

How much accuracy is needed in a sniper rifle?

John Plaster answered that saying you wouldn't notice anything better than 3/4 MOA in the field.

I am not a sniper, just a paper puncher with a custom tactical rifle. I enjoy shooting smallest groups possible unde various conditions of wind lighting, etc.  As such I was willing to part with some 'disposable income' to get a bit more accuracy.  If I was an honest to goodness sniper I would want all the accuracy I could get and would work with what I had to exactly know my limitations.

Generally I would suppose that a rifle capabe of 3/4 MOA is probably all that is needed for sniping.  But if was my butt lying prone in the cold waiting for hours for a shot at 650 yards, I would be wanting a rifle capable of .001 MOA if one were possible.  At distance where range estimation is critical and wind velocity and direction are so important you would need every advantage you can get.  John Plaster know better than most, but never give up any advantage you can have!

Happy Holidays Guys!

Why get a 308 bolt action rifle with a barrel longer than 18"?
I found that out from this site...
Hasnt it been proven that a barrel over 18" long is pritty much a waste because ballistics dont suffer much?