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Posted: 12/4/2002 11:11:03 PM EDT
I thought I'd share this with you guys for a chuckle.
I see this guy at the range a couple times a month for the last 2 yrs.
He's always AK this and SKS that, and ARs are jamomatics. I love to shoot my stock 20" bushie off hand @100yds at paper plates. I just love to do it andaverage about 80% hits.
Anyways it's ARs are jamomatics and I'm just poping one after another. And AKs this while the olbushie is spiting em out. And it's SKSs are that an the bushe just rolls along.
But ARs are jamomatics. But in the last 2 yrs I don't think he's seenmine jam once. Even he admits mine rus great, but their jamomatics and not for him.
Well we've went through all the arguements of look how many AR are built by guys with pipe wrences and vice grips useing god know what parts from whom, and exactly how many AKs an SKSs are home built. We've went the AR plinkers with out chrome and small chambers talk, and how many commie guns are like that?
I've run all the talks there is and its still ARs arnt for him, jamomatics. I've even run the AKs with the USA trigger parts cuseing jamomatics out or AKs, But no commie guns rule.
Well last month he comes shooting and guess what he's got. An AR. But his Bushie is a Jamomatic. 4 or 5 out of a 30 mag fails. And meanwhile I'm poping holes in those paper plates.
And I'm shooting plate after plate and he's jaming mag after mag. And hearing his Commie guns rule. Ak this and SKS that.
So finally I walks over to his bench and start looking at his rifle. The pats just didn't seen to look finished like my bush. So I pick it u and the font sight is off alinment. So I pull the chargeing handle and the bolt sounds odd in lock up and the trigger felt like it was running over a rasp.
I put it down and said that's the worst bushine I've evr seen and he should send it back to Bushmaster cause they'll replace it probubly.
WELL that's when it came out that his buddie a very very good AR builder had built it and it was suppose to be all BM parts.
So's I just laid his $750 Frankinrifle back down and went back to shooting paper plates shot after shot with my stock $740 BM. But I didn't shoot as good. Ya ever try sighting through a peep with a big ear to ear shit eating grin o yer face!!!!!!
Link Posted: 12/5/2002 8:44:32 AM EDT
Let him keep his ak and sks. Who cares? Just knowing that my AR is supperior makes me happy.
Link Posted: 12/5/2002 9:45:06 AM EDT
That's a funny story!

When I read the thread title I thought it was gonna be about one of those "I hate commie guns!" guys.

I was at a gun show a couple of weeks ago looking for Makarov ammo, and this guy next to me mumbles out loud "I'd NEVER buy a Russian-made product!" You could hear in his voice the disdain for ex-commie stuff.

Every firearm should be evaluated on its own merit. I own an AK and two AR's, and each is fine for what it is. To write-off something just because it is or isn't "made in 'merica" is dumb.
Link Posted: 12/5/2002 10:32:36 AM EDT
Good story. However, I built my first AR with a J&T kit. Never built a rifle before. 4 months ago I shoot over 300 rounds thru it and then put it away dirty, yes...I know. Last weekend I shoot over 500 rounds thru it and never had a jam!! So it isn't the rifle or the builder, but more likely the owner of the friearm that doesn't know WTF he is doing.

BTW, I also own a SKS and an AK, wouldn't get rid of those either!

Sgtar15
Link Posted: 12/5/2002 10:44:55 AM EDT
Jest send that rifle over to my old uncle billy bob. He'll put er in a vise grip and just bend that barrel any which ways ya want. You say it's shootin low at 50 yards? Hell son, give er here and we'll just use grandpa's old sledge hammer to bash that front sight down...
Link Posted: 12/5/2002 11:27:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By --BATMAN--:
Jest send that rifle over to my old uncle billy bob. He'll put er in a vise grip and just bend that barrel any which ways ya want. You say it's shootin low at 50 yards? Hell son, give er here and we'll just use grandpa's old sledge hammer to bash that front sight down...



I actually know someone like that. I avoid him at all costs. He always tinkers with stuff, and it ends up failing catastrophically. Not with a firearm, YET. But it will happen. He is an accident waiting to happen. He is a poster boy for the gun control crowd. Someday they will parade the mother of whoever he blows up/shoots accidentally,etc. I WISH their was a way to disarm him.

Link Posted: 12/5/2002 9:41:19 PM EDT
Fellas, don't get me wrong, I got both AK an SKS also, and they are great combat rifles. And I in no way was putting them down.
And I ain't putting down any frankinARs either. I've shot several that run great. But I've also seen alot built from gun show parts that were wore slap dead out and just painted up to look new and alot of out of spec parts too.
And I've seen suposedly real good AR builders, you know that friend of a friend of a guy he met in a bar, Whose armorers tool kit consistes mainly of a hammer, vice grips and several broken screwdrivers.
But lets face it, if ya buy a home built AR that you havn't shot, from a guy that you really don't know or have seen his rifles perform, should you really be surprised if it dosn't run right.
I could see a newbe doing this, or because ya just got a steal in the price. But this guy is a reliability nut, and he's preaty well set bucks wise. Besides he can tellya the good points of the Brands of AK and SKSs. Ad he bought the specific brand he thought was best. Then he goes out an buys a home built parts AR. I just coudn't see him not buying a good quality AR. Especially since he has seen my BM run great for a couple of yrs.
One other note. When I was there that day shooting. My AR has had about 1000 22LRs down the pipe and arround 900 223s down the pipe since it seen the last brush an mop. My cleaning routine this yr has preaty much been a monthly clean em thing. So I guess mines about due in another week or two.
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 6:03:33 AM EDT
It's too bad the guy condemns all AR's because he's had bad experience with the one he owns. I think everyone has a "my friend the expert" of some form or the other. I think there's an abundance of com-bloc weapons out there that are decently priced, and there's little or no advantage to building up one unless you're replacing foriegn parts for U.S. parts for legality reasons.
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 9:53:06 AM EDT
I was at a gunshow a week or so ago and saw this doofus who goes to the local range occasionally. He is always looking to do the strangest things to guns--for example he put a red-dot scope on a Moisin Nagant M44 with a homemade mount that he welded together. At the gunshow he had purchased a ruger 10/22 synthetic stock, and I saw him hold it up next to an M44 at a dealer's table, obviously looking to see how it would fit! I literally shuddered when I saw him make a motion with his hand, like a saw, where I can only assume he was planning on cutting off the front of the ruger synthetic stock to make it "sporterized".

YIKES! On the other hand, if he ever shoots anyone with a gun, maybe he won't qualify for the death penalty under the new sentencing guidelines for RETARDS...
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 10:18:35 AM EDT
I have owned 6 different AR's,yes they do jam and double feed.Most of the time it is the mag or it is dirty.I currently have none.I think they are more accurate than the AK or SKS,but I know I can count on my AK's to empty a 75rnd drum over and over.The AR is Ok if you like single shots.
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 10:30:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By akethan:
I have owned 6 different AR's,yes they do jam and double feed.Most of the time it is the mag or it is dirty.I currently have none.I think they are more accurate than the AK or SKS,but I know I can count on my AK's to empty a 75rnd drum over and over.The AR is Ok if you like single shots.



I think the last sentence is supposed to read "The AR is Ok unless you are an idiot or an arab who lives in a cave"

Unless you are completely uninformed about firearms maintenance (like a arab living in a cave) or you are an idiot (who buys a cheap USA magazine instead of USGI or Thermold) the AR will not malfunction significantly more than an AK.

I acknowledge that if you are out in the field, drop your rifle in gritty mud and don't have time to clean it because you are under fire, then an AK may be marginally more reliable than an AR - but for trained people who are using proper equipment, the AR is a very reliable rifle.

I'm not at all saying that you're an idiot, or that you don't know proper maintenance - I agree the AK is somewhat more reliable under certain conditions. I just think a lot of AK owners vastly exagerrate the difference.
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 10:32:14 AM EDT
LOL
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 8:52:21 PM EDT
OK I'm gona bite.
I agree tthere is no reason cost wise to building an AK. So practically all AKs are factory built and mil spec. So can you logically compare them to a weapons system that probubally 40% of them is not mil spec. And they are not mil spec for cheaper cost.
But my point was that if 40% of the AKs out there had tight non chrome lined chambers I think the AKs would start jaming alot. Now add a great number of Aks built by Joe Retard with a pipe wrench and you'll have alot of AKs jamming too. Look at the problems the USA trigger sets are causeing. Slightly out of spec aftermarket parts causeing problems aru't they. But that's quite common in the AR world.
6 AR jamomatics, again I ask were they good quality rifles or some bargin frankingun?????? I mean there are AR aprts out there tha were sold as out of spec scrap that some fella paints and sells as new at a gunshow. And they could be built buy someone who do't know jack about building ARs. Look at all the Kit ARs sold, how many of those guys are building their first AR? And how many of these guys are the dudes that never, NEVER read instructions for anything, but their building rifles. And if it don't work right it's a junk design. And if they were good quality why didn't you fix em. I mean the AR ain't rocket science man and you ain't building a benchrest match 1/4" @200yds shooter. The ARs rotateing bolt design is a bit more complex then the AK. But it's still a simple mechanical system. Ge whiz we ain't talking automatic transmisions here.
Here's a hint, there are only 2 mfgs that have always made chrome lined chambers. Colt and Bushmaster, and even they have made some target models with 223 chambers instead of the mil spec nato chambers. And every time you change a part from mil spec, you increase your chance of malfunctions. Thats fact of like with the AR the AK the 1911 or the glock, HK or what ever.
I will agree there are alot of ARs that jam. But the mil spec design is very reliable when properly built.
The problem is there are thousands and thousands of ARs out there that are NOT mil spec. And there are thousands of ARs out there that have been built hit or miss, and mostly miss.
And this fella at the range should know this!!! He owns more than a Doz Military rifles and pistols. All were factory built. When he decides he wants something he researches the model to find out the best quality built in the best condition out there, then hunts one. Man he spent all summer long hunting for a 8mm Mauser cause he wanted a perticular brand made durring certian yrs. Then he goes out and buys some frankingun AR and it wasn't even a bargin. It just didn't make sense to me..
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 9:08:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/6/2002 9:11:57 PM EDT by C_Brooks]
Most guys that are fans of commie guns are simple and don't think very much.
If they can't pick it up and make it work right away it's crap to them,same guys that buy Jap cars if something they don't understand happens they get flipped out about it.

To tell you the truth you may want to talk to that guy before he blows his head off with that rigged up gun.
Somebody that deals with guns like the SKS and AK should not build ARs on their own,it's like having to guy that works on weed-eaters fix your computer.
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 11:03:20 PM EDT
Here's an interesting write up on the AR vs AK debate. Israel is one of the few countries to have used the AK type and AR extensively so I guess their opinion has some merit.

http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/assault/m16vsak47.htm

~rssc
Link Posted: 12/6/2002 11:28:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C_Brooks:
Most guys that are fans of commie guns are simple and don't think very much.

then u get people like me that like em cuz there cheap to buy and cheap to feed.
Link Posted: 12/7/2002 12:04:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By C_Brooks:
Most guys that are fans of commie guns are simple and don't think very much.

<snip>

Somebody that deals with guns like the SKS and AK should not build ARs on their own,it's like having to guy that works on weed-eaters fix your computer.



I started with "Commie guns", and I always come back to "Commie guns", ARs are nice rifles true, but for the very minor margin of accuracy they have in milspec shape over an inexpensive but well tuned AK or SKS isnt worth crowing about. If I spent the extra $1,000 on an SKS or an AK that folks spend on ARs to make them "one-hole-tackdrivers" I too could get that kind of accuracy. Like the F4 Phantom, you put enough behind anything and it'll fly.

I shoot with a large range of folks, and its been my personal experience that the biggest loud-mouth "'Merican Gun" and Blackrifle fans tend to be modestly educated blue-collar guys who like cheap beer and ugly whores with big tits. They like hanging out at the beach with their "big sonofabitch" boats and "bad-ass" trucks and grill enormous ammounts of cheap ground-beef and other "american delicasies". If they're over 35 they invariably have a beer gut and get fighting mad when they cannot come up with a logical, intellegent retort to a viewpoint they dont agree with. They tend to be either quietly non-religious, or blindly Christian, driving cars with bumperstickers bearing the words "REAL MEN LOVE JESUS" or the like. They think that a world where the US isnt the top dog is tantamount to hell, with any foreigner who is successfull but doesnt like the US as Satan. They tend to bitch endlessly about anything that isnt "processed-yellow-cheese" American. They have little understanding of things outside their own views, and dont care to.

Before someone gets their panties in a bunch, I'm not complaining about these guys. They were the rank and file of the grunts in every US conflict since WWII. They have been the muscle behind the iron that has made this country great, and they've been the guys that tilled our soil that fed the world for the last 100 years. They have just as much a right to be proud as anyone else and are "salt of the earth" Americans.

They do not generaly tend towards a high intellectual capacity however.

I am a four year degree holder with a minor in hard science (not too good with math though) and an IQ of between 136-148 depending on the test, but is none the less comfortably close enough to a genius ranking. I would be willing to establish this fact with any certified credible test in the world. I speak three languages, two passably, and am reasonably mechanicaly competent. I also consider myself sufficiently well versed in classical music, astronomy, environmental sciences, culinary arts and classical literature to not feel completely out of place in nearly any discussion I've ever run into. I have traveled to eight foreign countries on four continents for academic studies and have dug for everything from mineral deposits and dinausaur bones to ancient South American artifacts. I've never held one job for more than a year straight (but considering I just graduated college, thats not saying much), but I'm a certified private pilot and am going for my ATP upon completion of my military duties.

And I'm the most boaring, poorly educated, poorly traveled Com-Bloc fanatic I keep company with on a regular basis...in addition to two gentilemen I know off the top of my head who are published gun writers and active pro-Civil Rights advocates for our little cause, are also well educated extremely intellegent individuals. Namely the photographer Oleg Volk and David Fortier.

So you know a few misinformed Bubbas with AKs.

I, along with all the other AK fans I'm sure are around here, dont appriciate your demeaning and poorly educated comments.

Link Posted: 12/7/2002 5:46:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Carbine_Man:
That's a funny story!

When I read the thread title I thought it was gonna be about one of those "I hate commie guns!" guys.

I was at a gun show a couple of weeks ago looking for Makarov ammo, and this guy next to me mumbles out loud "I'd NEVER buy a Russian-made product!" You could hear in his voice the disdain for ex-commie stuff.

Every firearm should be evaluated on its own merit. I own an AK and two AR's, and each is fine for what it is. To write-off something just because it is or isn't "made in 'merica" is dumb.



I have to agree on this one, most of our goods are made in other country's, the guy just cannot accept a Global market.
Link Posted: 12/7/2002 6:21:17 AM EDT
OK DK-Prof and JBA111 you guys win! I guess the Seals don't know what they are doing using AK's for their landing weapon,maybe because you can fill it with sand and still fire it.

The AK gas and operation systems are still being used in the design of new guns.I have not seen a new weapon design using the Stoner technology.

The AR's I claim to haved owned are 5 Colts,2 SP1's,Comp HBAR2,MT Lightweight,7.62x39 carbine and a Bushy.All but the Bushy where factory.
Mags, yes I have some USA 40 rounds and they seemed to work better then the GI mags.I have also used thermold and orlite mags.

Some AR's do work great,but if you took the percentage that fail -VS- the AK the AR would be smoked.

I must return to my cave and clean my M1A,they also kick the AR's ass.
Link Posted: 12/7/2002 6:43:18 AM EDT
My Bushmaster M4 upper on an Eagle (Coal Valley) lower has NEVER jammed in over 4000 rounds. I lube it with Dri-Slide and have an Armforte extractor insert in it. Once on a range, one of my black teflon mags (Wolfe springs, green follower) loaded with M193 went feed lips down into fine dirt. I blew it out, loaded it and emptied all 28 rounds downrange without a hitch. The magazine was literally caked with dirt inside.

I didnt used to have total confidence in my ARs, and I've seen more than enough of them jam. Granted AK's can go longer without cleaning, but Ive found a combination of parts and lube that doesnt cause me the least bit of concern in terms of reliability.

Link Posted: 12/7/2002 7:05:55 AM EDT
RebelGray: great post! Now help me get the soot and ash off of my clothes, I felt the flame and it wasn't even directed at me! By the way, what is your degree in? Mine's in history, a minor in music, and the juris doctor from law school will arrive in May assuming I do my part.

Guys, this thread is not supposed to be an AK v. AR thread. Its supposed to be about dummies with guns. All in all, I think you get alot of dummies with both kinds, but more dummies with $200 SKS's than with $1300 pre-ban ARs just because of the financial implications of their socio-economic status. Call me biased or snotty or whatever, but if I see a guy show up at the range with a Lorcin or a Raven and a Hi-Point Carbine, I watch him extra carefully for range safety problems, because to my way of thinking there is a good chance he just doesn't know much about guns. And those guns aren't commie guns at all. Call me what you will, you guys know what I'm talking about here.
Link Posted: 12/7/2002 7:22:04 AM EDT
I see more idiots that get ripped off and don't even know it.They will pay a premium for a rifle they know nothing about.Why,because they have more money than common sense.I fear yuppies
at the range.

These same people drive up the prices,letting dealers take advantage of them.You can't blame the dealers it is their job to make money.

You could be a doctor or lawyer and still not know shit about firearms.

It does not matter I will probably buy another AR some day.They look cool.For all you folks who do not agree with me,it is okay.I'm glad that you are all gun owners and shooters.

Now get out there and shoot something!
Link Posted: 12/7/2002 8:13:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2002 8:14:43 AM EDT by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By akethan:
OK DK-Prof and JBA111 you guys win! I guess the Seals don't know what they are doing using AK's for their landing weapon,maybe because you can fill it with sand and still fire it.



Dude - I DARE you to fill an AK with sand and try to fire it. Since someone has actually tried that (who made the same claims as you) and it destoyed the gun, you might understand why some people are skeptical.

I'm not trying to "win" anything here. You seem to be really intent on convincing everyone that ARs must suck because you personally had some bad experiences. I still find it astonishing that you had factory ARs that were really unreliable - maybe it was the ammo? I dunno, but the combined experiences of all the AR shooters here is that factory ARs are extremely reliable, and you seemed to have had some bad luck.

I once bought a brand new Honda Accord (in 1998). It had a variety of problems in the first year, and had to go back to the shop many times. Before that I had a Dodge Stratus that never had any problems. Do I frantically try to convince people that Dodge quality is superior to Honda?? NO, because I know (based on the experiences of millions of other consumers) that Dodge quality is crap and unreliable, and Honda quality is extremely good and reliable. My Honda was definitely crap, but that doesn't generalize to the entire population.

Nobody here is saying that AKs are not realiable. In fact, had you READ my entire post, you would have noticed that I am acknowledging that AK can be more reliable than ARs in really dirty conditions. But many of the ARs out there that jam a lot do so bacause they are poorly built, not because of a bad design. On the design - I will also admit that I like the piston design of the AK and M1 Garand/M1A much better.

I'm by no means trying to convince you that an AR is "better" somehow than an AK. Because (a) I honestly don't know the answer, and it depends on the criteria, and (b) I really could care less what some anonymous person on the internet thinks. I'm just trying to correct what I think is a common misunderstanding, which is that ARs jam a lot because of basic design flaws.




Some AR's do work great,but if you took the percentage that fail -VS- the AK the AR would be smoked.



Again, nobody is disagreeing with you there, just pointing out the the ARs that don't work great are almost always the frankenguns that yahoos slapped together in a garage and passed off as factory at guns-shows. Many people own these and do not even know that they are NOT factory guns.



I must return to my cave and clean my M1A,they also kick the AR's ass.



THAT we can agree on wholeheartedly - although some of it undoubtedly has to do with the more powerful cartridge. The M1 Garand/M1A design is a thing of beauty. I cannot tell you how much abuse I have put a Garand through, and still have it function flawlessly. I once used a Garand to pull myself through waist-deep mud, and when my squad got out, the rifles looked like longe pieces of firewood, covered in mud. you could not even tell there was a rifle in there - but they still fired and cycled!

Link Posted: 12/7/2002 8:17:34 AM EDT
I hate to break this to you rebel gray but david fortier is an idiot. I was reading an artical of his about AR's and ar accessories. First of he hates carry handles. Says if you use it the way its made to be used then your bound to point it at somone else. (I always use my carry handle and have never done anything so fuckin stupid thankyou very much) second off he was wining about poor accuracy in his AR. No wonder, he was using some of the worst .223 ammo ive ever seen. Wolf,PMC ect. Look if your into ak's and sks's and the like then im sure that your gonna fall in love with wolf ammo. But wolf is terrible in ar's your absolutely looking for trouble. Be ignorant as he is he blamed the inaccuracy and other problems on the gun. He didnt even have a single bit of good ammo. not winchester, not remington not even some dadburned military surplus. Yeah spend over $1200 on a gun and feed it full of corroded crap and see what happens.
Link Posted: 12/7/2002 9:07:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RebelGray:

Originally Posted By C_Brooks:
Most guys that are fans of commie guns are simple and don't think very much.

<snip>

Somebody that deals with guns like the SKS and AK should not build ARs on their own,it's like having to guy that works on weed-eaters fix your computer.



I started with "Commie guns", and I always come back to "Commie guns", ARs are nice rifles true, but for the very minor margin of accuracy they have in milspec shape over an inexpensive but well tuned AK or SKS isnt worth crowing about. If I spent the extra $1,000 on an SKS or an AK that folks spend on ARs to make them "one-hole-tackdrivers" I too could get that kind of accuracy. Like the F4 Phantom, you put enough behind anything and it'll fly.

I shoot with a large range of folks, and its been my personal experience that the biggest loud-mouth "'Merican Gun" and Blackrifle fans tend to be modestly educated blue-collar guys who like cheap beer and ugly whores with big tits. They like hanging out at the beach with their "big sonofabitch" boats and "bad-ass" trucks and grill enormous ammounts of cheap ground-beef and other "american delicasies". If they're over 35 they invariably have a beer gut and get fighting mad when they cannot come up with a logical, intellegent retort to a viewpoint they dont agree with. They tend to be either quietly non-religious, or blindly Christian, driving cars with bumperstickers bearing the words "REAL MEN LOVE JESUS" or the like. They think that a world where the US isnt the top dog is tantamount to hell, with any foreigner who is successfull but doesnt like the US as Satan. They tend to bitch endlessly about anything that isnt "processed-yellow-cheese" American. They have little understanding of things outside their own views, and dont care to.

Before someone gets their panties in a bunch, I'm not complaining about these guys. They were the rank and file of the grunts in every US conflict since WWII. They have been the muscle behind the iron that has made this country great, and they've been the guys that tilled our soil that fed the world for the last 100 years. They have just as much a right to be proud as anyone else and are "salt of the earth" Americans.

They do not generaly tend towards a high intellectual capacity however.

I am a four year degree holder with a minor in hard science (not too good with math though) and an IQ of between 136-148 depending on the test, but is none the less comfortably close enough to a genius ranking. I would be willing to establish this fact with any certified credible test in the world. I speak three languages, two passably, and am reasonably mechanicaly competent. I also consider myself sufficiently well versed in classical music, astronomy, environmental sciences, culinary arts and classical literature to not feel completely out of place in nearly any discussion I've ever run into. I have traveled to eight foreign countries on four continents for academic studies and have dug for everything from mineral deposits and dinausaur bones to ancient South American artifacts. I've never held one job for more than a year straight (but considering I just graduated college, thats not saying much), but I'm a certified private pilot and am going for my ATP upon completion of my military duties.

And I'm the most boaring, poorly educated, poorly traveled Com-Bloc fanatic I keep company with on a regular basis...in addition to two gentilemen I know off the top of my head who are published gun writers and active pro-Civil Rights advocates for our little cause, are also well educated extremely intellegent individuals. Namely the photographer Oleg Volk and David Fortier.

So you know a few misinformed Bubbas with AKs.

I, along with all the other AK fans I'm sure are around here, dont appriciate your demeaning and poorly educated comments.




So what your getting at is that you are an elitist know-it-all. Any know it all worth his salt can tell you that you can fill your AKs reciver with rocks and it will still dump a mag.
Link Posted: 12/7/2002 9:35:06 AM EDT
I've had an AR (Colt) and an AK at the same time. In twenty some years I have never had my AR jam, not once. Yes I clean it after every use. But I am not fanatical. I guess I'm just the only lucky one although I doubt it.

My AK was also a great gun and a lot of fun to shoot. It jammed once. I never found out why and it never did it again. I later sold it to get a guitar.

Contrary to rehashed 40 year old stories and tales of poor reliability from questionable home builds, The AR 15 is an outstanding weapons system and one of the most accurate box stock semi auto rifles you can buy.
Link Posted: 12/7/2002 9:58:24 AM EDT
With so many fine American weapons available I never found the need to buy any commie ones. Might have something to do with spending half my life watching them pointed back at me.

I did manage to put an Austrian FAL into the pile after finding the need for another rifle for .308, I think I have an Italian shotgun (my wife's) too.

Don't really hate SKS/AK's just never found a need for them - the AR fills that role so much better.

A jam in an AR is either a poorly built rifle using sub standard parts, bad ammo, or an act of God. I haven't had a single jam in any of my six AR's in the last 18 months .

(have­n't fired a single round in my AR's in the last 18 months)
Link Posted: 12/7/2002 10:08:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By C_Brooks:
Most guys that are fans of commie guns are simple and don't think very much.
If they can't pick it up and make it work right away it's crap to them,same guys that buy Jap cars if something they don't understand happens they get flipped out about it.

---snip---



Don't mistake my anger if something goes wrong with one of my Japanese or German cars. It's not that I don't know what's wrong with it at all. It's that it even happened to begin with. When you run a car six or eight years and never have anything go wrong at all you just simply get use to it.

I haven't built many of my own cars over the last 25 years of driving them but have worked on a number of them. In 200,000 miles of Japanese car ownership spanning 15 years I've bought one battery (replacing a ten year old one), a fuel pump (someone ripped mine off in Australia), some windshield wipers (Australian and Southern California sun, Washington State rain), and three sets of tires. Things just don't break on them.

Sort of like buying a Bushmaster and having to replace the barrel every 8-10,000 rounds or so you do expect normal parts to wear out. But breakage, no.
Link Posted: 12/7/2002 3:14:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By --BATMAN--:
<snip> Mine's in history, a minor in music, and the juris doctor from law school will arrive in May assuming I do my part.



Not ment to be a flame. See further down.

Military history major with an emphasis on irregular units in warfare from the 1870s to the present. I tend to be interested in the "Under-dogs". Zulu riflemen, some of the South American revolutions, the Franco Prussian war, the Span-Am War (TR is my hero), the Allied involvement in the Russian Revolution, the US campaigns in Centeral America between WWI and WWII. It goes on...how 'bout you?

WolfAR15

The comment about the carry handle is one I have heard from DIs and range instructors before, and not all of them were anywhere close to what I'd term as idiots. As for the wolf ammo, it makes a point too, ever had wolf FTF in an AK? Ever had ANY ammo FTF in an AK? AR historians acknowledge that the early AR had trouble with buildup from "the wrong kind of powder", its my contention that you could probably shoot pyrodex or pistol powder in an AK and it'd still function OK.

Incidently Fortier's article in Shotgun News about AR accessories was chopped pretty badly, I suggest you track down the original text and read it. Magazines are a pretty crappy place to read a man's work.

JU88

Your accusing me of being an eliteist?

It wasnt me who posted saying that any fans of Com-Block weapons were idiot hill-billies. IMHO if you post that kind of jerk-minded generalization you are putting yourself up for the world to prove you wrong. If you dont like me, dont talk to me, but consider this; I left my ROTC slot in college and a sure-thing butter-bar slot at $25,000 a year to be a PFC making less than half that because I didnt like the crystal-tower mentality of my ROTC detachment officers and fellow cadets.

My own wife comes from the affore-mentioned redneck stock, and is very close to her family. Her mother appears in the dictionary next to the words "Mountain-mother", having never seen a doctor or dentist in her 67 years, and popping out nine reasonably normal, successful children, a number of whom own a lot of ARs, drive big rigs, drink cheap beer, like ugly chicks with big tits, and go off about "far-in-ers" and "far-in craaap".

I love to spend time my in-laws and wouldnt trade them for the world, but I still call it as I see it.

People who like Com-Bloc or any other foreign guns that "poo-poo'ed" by "the masses" tend to be better educated and more open minded than those who automaticaly assume just because its American its superior or right.

Link Posted: 12/7/2002 4:14:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RebelGray:People who like Com-Bloc or any other foreign guns that "poo-poo'ed" by "the masses" tend to be better educated and more open minded than those who automaticaly assume just because its American its superior or right.




Why do you accuse people of automatic assumption and them make them your self?

AR type weapons are not better because they are American or Canadian or used by the Israelis or any of the others who use them,they are American because they are better or we would use something eles.

You say your and "under dog" type of guy,well from my time in university I can say with full confidence that it's due to a need to win and be right.
People who are compelled to take up lost causes most often suffer from a lack of self-esteem and have a need to brag(My IQ is bla bla)

the fact is that all anything ever needs to be in order to be better is American,thats what we do here.
And yes people that are fans of lesser things like AKs don't think alot.
They don't want to take the time to work on something better they will just get by with bone headed ideas like "my gun can shoot with rocks in it" something no gun will ever have to do.

You are a smart ass and you feel better if you can talk down to other and thats ok,maybe your mom did not hug you that much or maybe you have a small ding dong I don't care but don't trash,and yes you did trash the good folks who eat "american delicasies" and have "Real men love Jesus" bumperstickers somehow they have done things better than the rest of the world for a very long time now.

Guys like you can go your hole lives and never now what "smart" is.

PS:No people who like Com-Bloc....whatever are not better educated and more open minded 90% of the time they just want to be some type of rebel but nobody cares.
Link Posted: 12/7/2002 4:39:56 PM EDT
i couldnt resist with my name...so you all think only poor underedjucated fools have commie guns? so when i go to the range and pull out my Hi-Point carbine (gee i must have bad range safety), then shoot my SKS (now i'm stupid) then get out my $500 homebuilt AR which has never jammed/failed to feed (don't shoot my bushy too much), then get out my $1800 M1A, what do you think? where am i in your sterotype?

A little advice, variety is the spice of life.

28 guns later i still like my SKS, but the two guns i keep loaded in my bedroom are my home built 16"AR w/red dot and my 12 gauge pump.

does this mean i dont trust my life to any of my commie weapons? no, it just means my shorty AR and my 18" 870 are better suited for grabbing in the night.

my dad tought me one thing, always use the right tool for the job.

Link Posted: 12/7/2002 6:38:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2002 9:26:11 PM EDT by C_Brooks]
"A little advice, variety is the spice of life."


Some of you people are as dumb as you think I think your are.

People that FAVER commie guns over more refined and advaced guns are bone heads not the people who have some of each.

You know this is why we have this fight five times a week on this site,any time you post on this topic you have to come back ten times and make your self clear.

Now if you had said that your SKS is a better weapon that our AR or M1A then you would be a total butt head.

Link Posted: 12/7/2002 6:42:19 PM EDT
I like AK's, SKS's and AR's, I just like AR's and M1A's better.

My AR's don't jam often at all. I think it is just bad publicity, like how Springfield slammed the Norinco M1A's available.
Link Posted: 12/7/2002 6:59:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2002 7:02:13 PM EDT by ShamusMcOI]

Originally Posted By RebelGray:

Originally Posted By --BATMAN--:
<snip> Mine's in history, a minor in music, and the juris doctor from law school will arrive in May assuming I do my part.



Not ment to be a flame. See further down.

Military history major with an emphasis on irregular units in warfare from the 1870s to the present. I tend to be interested in the "Under-dogs". Zulu riflemen, some of the South American revolutions, the Franco Prussian war, the Span-Am War (TR is my hero), the Allied involvement in the Russian Revolution, the US campaigns in Centeral America between WWI and WWII. It goes on...how 'bout you?

WolfAR15

The comment about the carry handle is one I have heard from DIs and range instructors before, and not all of them were anywhere close to what I'd term as idiots. As for the wolf ammo, it makes a point too, ever had wolf FTF in an AK? Ever had ANY ammo FTF in an AK? AR historians acknowledge that the early AR had trouble with buildup from "the wrong kind of powder", its my contention that you could probably shoot pyrodex or pistol powder in an AK and it'd still function OK.

Incidently Fortier's article in Shotgun News about AR accessories was chopped pretty badly, I suggest you track down the original text and read it. Magazines are a pretty crappy place to read a man's work.

JU88

Your accusing me of being an eliteist?

It wasnt me who posted saying that any fans of Com-Block weapons were idiot hill-billies. IMHO if you post that kind of jerk-minded generalization you are putting yourself up for the world to prove you wrong. If you dont like me, dont talk to me, but consider this; I left my ROTC slot in college and a sure-thing butter-bar slot at $25,000 a year to be a PFC making less than half that because I didnt like the crystal-tower mentality of my ROTC detachment officers and fellow cadets.

My own wife comes from the affore-mentioned redneck stock, and is very close to her family. Her mother appears in the dictionary next to the words "Mountain-mother", having never seen a doctor or dentist in her 67 years, and popping out nine reasonably normal, successful children, a number of whom own a lot of ARs, drive big rigs, drink cheap beer, like ugly chicks with big tits, and go off about "far-in-ers" and "far-in craaap".

I love to spend time my in-laws and wouldnt trade them for the world, but I still call it as I see it.

People who like Com-Bloc or any other foreign guns that "poo-poo'ed" by "the masses" tend to be better educated and more open minded than those who automaticaly assume just because its American its superior or right.




Ummmmmmmmm......Why I have actually seen an AK jam because of an ammo issue. Again, not to turn this into a AK vs. AR thread, but just needed to clarify that.



One of my favorite range stories of SKS dorks at the range (and there are many) involves some long haired dirtbag hippy looking trailer trash dork who showed up with an SKS and a .38. It wasn't long before it was obvious he was a dumbass.

Me and a friend were seated at the next bench, and of course being polite unfortunately ended up speaking with this derilict.

Needless to say he started talking about AR's and SKS's and how great his SKS was. He went on and on about this super accurate 7.62X39 ammo that the Germans were manufacturing (IIRC it was AP) and that his SKS was just as accurate as an AR. Hell, just the other week he was busting watermelons at 1000 yards with iron sites.

Needless to say I was impressed, and ran away before he flipped out and ninjafied me with his bare hands.
Link Posted: 12/7/2002 11:18:09 PM EDT
my $.02

Reb, we're all very proud of you for graduating college. and we're all equally proud of you for being so bright. obviously you considered this an "Affirmation" thread. it is not. so before we all start scanning our bachelors degrees, DD214s, BTRs, Mensa cards, and passport entries to show you aren't the superstar you percieve yourself to be we should clearly delineate a few accepted facts before this thread degenerates into a pissing match.

1. I love my AKs but like anything produced by communists...its crap. it works, but its crap. as long as communist doctrine refuses to acknowledge the value of individual life they will always issue crappy rifles, build crappy vehicles and flood their client states with inferior technology. (name for me one great Russian invention. chess and balet do not count)

2. Fortier is a tool

3. the AR is a superior weapon. properly built, firing quality ammunition it is the equal of any AK in terms of reliability. factor in accuracy, weight, ergonomics, and controllability and it is cleary superior.

4. any attempt to classify a shooter by what he takes to the range that day, or his socio/economic standing is foolish, immature and quite frankly absurd. i'm sure on days ive felt goofy and packed the 22's the AKs and the mil-surps, put on a flannel shirt and went to the range there have been yahoos or wannabes who probably make less money or are less educated than i who look down their nose at me and continue playing with their handloads. thats fine. some days i pack the ARs and HKs and wear work clothes with a fresh medium-reg. gives a completely different impression to a man small enough to make a judgement. but i am the same man regardless of the clothes wear, or the guns i have.

i mean lets face it. AKs are great because theyre reliable, fun to shoot and cheap to feed. its no deeper than that.


flame ON!
Link Posted: 12/8/2002 8:51:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RebelGray:


....tend to like... cheap beer and ugly whores with big tits.




All beer is cheap.

And what do YOU have against women with big tits? I suppose you like them with small tits?
Link Posted: 12/8/2002 12:01:37 PM EDT
SKS Boy, Devil Dog, sorry guys I stand corrected. I retract my previous statement. Thanks for putting me in my place.

RebelGray: I did a bit of military history but did alot more social history. For my "capstone" project in undergrad school I took nearly a year to write an oral history of the Vietnam War, which the faculty wanted me to publish but I didn't. Did alot of study of 19th and 20th century history around the world, Africa, China, Eastern Europe (depressing as hell!).

Let's see, after I graduated from undergrad, I spent a year in Jefferson City, MO as an intern at the capitol building, where I got to see how the sausage gets made. Working with those people every day did more to turn me into the rabid libertarian gun nut I am today than any other experience in my life. I started to buy guns like crazy, convinced that with these people in charge, the SHTF would happen sooner rather than later. I've since mellowed out quite a bit, but that's because I don't pay such close attention to politics anymore. In politics, if you aren't panicking and pissed off, you probably aren't paying attention.

I finish my 5th semester at Mizzou's law school a week from tomorrow. If everything goes as planned I'll get my law degree in May, take the bar exam in July, and if I don't have a real job by a year from now I'll be selling everything I own just to make rent!
Link Posted: 12/8/2002 1:04:51 PM EDT
where is the love?
Link Posted: 12/8/2002 5:03:46 PM EDT
Anybody seen my dog?
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