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Posted: 11/5/2002 3:08:32 PM EDT
Please give me some pros and cons about these two autos.

One of these days I will some money again...I've been looking at 3 different items.

1. Sig 220 ST...I really like stainless.

2. USP 45 "variant" WTF is "variant"?

3. USP 45 Expert...I little more than I need?

I enjoy target shooting and may want to compete sometime...even if it is just for beer.

Thanks in advance!

Eric
Link Posted: 11/5/2002 4:05:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/5/2002 4:06:41 PM EDT by AMHsix]
Both are excellent pistols. I like the button mag release on the Sig better then lever on the the H&K, but both are on my "to get" list. Of course the Sig is at the top, basically the next gun I'll get. The H&K is number 13 on my list of 29 guns.

Pro for the H&K, it holds more rounds... and the variants (if your into a certain mode of operation).

As for the "variants":
Here's a pic from a H&K catalog:


You can read it easier here, but there is not pic:
user.icx.net/~jonesgil/USP.HTM
Scroll half way down the page.
Link Posted: 11/5/2002 5:29:29 PM EDT
I was asking myself this same question about a year ago. I researched both of them at the Sig and HK websites. No gripes at the HK site. The only gripe at the Sig sight was the finish on the gun. I bought the HK and love it. I think the Sig is a good gun, but I just love my USP. The only gripe I have with it is the $40 plus price for 10rd mags. Around a 1000rds through it with NO jams plus it out shoots my Kimber CC. Just my 2c.
Link Posted: 11/5/2002 5:42:09 PM EDT
This is exactly the kind of stuff I need to know...THANKS!
Link Posted: 11/5/2002 6:05:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/5/2002 9:47:45 PM EDT
I got a USP .45F with the DA trigger, safety, and decocker.

I got it because I liked the differnant options it gave me, and because it felt better.

I love the HK, but I'd go with what you feel comfortable with. Shoot them all if you can find somebody who has one.

What works for me, might not work for you.
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 4:03:11 AM EDT
I had a Sig P220 in .45 ACP. I really liked it.It always performed with never a problem.My only gripe was that it felt a little light for a large caliber handgun.Sold it and bought a Colt 1991A1 .45ACP.I like the Colt better!! HTH. Skullboy.
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 4:44:06 AM EDT
I have both. Basically, you will not go wrong with either gun. If you think you may want to CCW, the Sig is certainly more concealable. Sig is more suitable for small hands, although you can carry the variant 1 USP cocked and locked. (I do this with mine, but do not like the fact that the safety does not lock the slide closed ala the 1911...yes, I know some prefer this, but I ain't one of them)

Both are very accurate and reliable, the "edge" on toughness and reliability favors the H&K, but are you really going to be crawling through the sewers with either? H&K finish is better than the old Sig blue, for sure, but I don't know about the new dark finish currently offered...with the SS it is pretty much a non-issue. Sig mags easily found, but not cheap either...stay with the 7rd. Texas DPS found problems with the 8rd. after they stayed loaded a while. JMO, I think the USP Expert is waaay overpriced for the little extra you get over the standard models.

Either way you are not gonna lose...Hell, get 'em both!
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 5:53:13 AM EDT
Had both, love both.
Choosing between the two, get the USP.
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 6:22:20 AM EDT
I have a USP45 fullsize and USP45 compact. I have owned one or more of most every make of pistol out there and IMO, the HK's are the cream of the crop.
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 7:02:08 AM EDT
Well, I have a USP .45 Tac, and my 2 good shooting buddies/neigbors hae a USP .45F and a Sig P220ST. We bought them all at the same time:-).

Anyway, both are AWESOME guns. I'd like to get a P220ST some day as well. The USP DOES have a few advantages though. . .

For one, the extra 2-4 rounds capacity. Another, the ability to carry cocked + locked, etc. -I can't stand not having a manual safty (on p220). (mainly for caring cocked).

Both guns shoot awesome, though the USP's are generally a tad more accurate. The biggest thing is this: With the sig P220st, after firing around 250 rnds, the side doesn't quit go forward when chambering a new round. It get's to gunked up, and you have to clean and lube the feed ramp, chamber, and slide rails. Then it's fine again. Now, on my Tac, I've fired over 1000 rnds w/out cleaning it (multiple times), then decided to clean it simply on account of the fact that I hate to neglect a $1k gun. (or any for that matter). It was still working as well as the 1st round after cleaning. I've also fired all 3 in the snow, rain, etc. . never encountered any problems in adverse weather. . .

Last thing, try them on for size. . my friend with the p220ST bought it becaus the USP felt uncomfortable in his baby (err, I mean small) hands. . . I'f you can't shoot it comfortably, don't get it!

Later,
Justin
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 7:07:54 AM EDT
The 220 does not have a safety, it's a traditional DA/SA pistol. It does have a decocker. You can also order it DAO which doesn't even have the decocker.

All of the guns you have mentioned are great and I really think you need to get the one that feels best in your hands. None of them really have any weak points so your choice will have to be subjective.

But keep us posted.
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 10:11:00 AM EDT
I once owned both, I had the P-220 first. It would digest anything I fed it, never once jammed on me. Accuracy was less than acceptable which is why I sold it.

I now use my USP Compact S/S in .45acp as my carry gun. You simply will NOT believe the accuracy you'll get from a H&K!

I agree that the Expert model may be more than you might want. "Need" has nothing to do with it. >gg<

IMO, the H&K wins over Sig hands down.
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 10:21:04 AM EDT
I HAVE HAD A USP40,USP45 COMPACT,USP45 AND A USP TACTICAL .45.I NOW CARRY A GLOCK 20 IN 10MM
AND YOU CAN KEEP YOUR H&K'S.MY TACTICAL BLEW IN HALF AFTER 500 ROUNDS. IT JAMMED ON A 200GR GOLDENSABER PUSHING THE BULLET DEEP IN THE CASE.
BOOM! MY HAND AND UNDERWEAR EVENTUALLY RECOVERED
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 10:29:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/6/2002 10:30:32 AM EDT by Hawkeye]

Originally Posted By akethan:
I HAVE HAD A USP40,USP45 COMPACT,USP45 AND A USP TACTICAL .45.I NOW CARRY A GLOCK 20 IN 10MM
AND YOU CAN KEEP YOUR H&K'S.MY TACTICAL BLEW IN HALF AFTER 500 ROUNDS. IT JAMMED ON A 200GR GOLDENSABER PUSHING THE BULLET DEEP IN THE CASE.
BOOM! MY HAND AND UNDERWEAR EVENTUALLY RECOVERED



That might explain part of your problem. Golden Sabers only come in 230gr, 185gr, & 185gr +P loads.

If you saw that the bullet was pushed into the case, why did you fire it?
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 10:34:57 AM EDT
Both are about equally good.......both are about as good as they can get. These are very well made, highly reliable, accurate semi-auto pistols. You can't go wrong with either.

I once spent 2 hours in a gunshop trying to pick between an H&K and a Sig. Finally after much debate I picked the Sig because I liked the way it felt in my hand better than the HK, I liked the sights better and the trigger also felt perfect. Brought it home and found the most accurate semi-auto pistol I ever had the pleasure of shooting. I'm hooked on Sig now and since bought another one. I now have the P-229 in .40 S&W and the P-220 in .45 ACP. I love them both.
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 10:39:50 AM EDT
Have not shot the hk. Have owned a p220 for over 15 years. It is the last gun I would sell. I have gone through several 1911 and 1 glock in .45

I am puzzled by the person who stated the p220 was less then accurate. I shoot IPSC match's with my bone stock p220 and the gun will out shoot me. I have yet to place behind any hk USP that I know of, we have had a few out there.

I have at LEAST 10,000 rounds through this gun. I have reloaded half of it. I have learned that as long as I get a primer,some powder and a bullet on top it will go though the gun. I have reloaded some crap and it will go right through.

In over 15 years I have had ONE problem that was a extractor broke. That was this year, partly my fault. You see I dont clean the gun much and the space behind the extractor was full of crap and would not allow it to move much anymore.

Find a range that rents and shoot both that is the best way to find out what fits you.
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 10:53:53 AM EDT
My first P220 was from back in 94/95. It was awesome. Great shooter, accurate, reliable, etc. I got rid of it not long ago, missed it, and got another one of current manufacture. Fr some reason, it wouldnt hit the broad side of a barn. It didnt stay with me more than about 2 weeks. All of my USP's of any flavor have been tackdrivers. I still think Sig is a great gun, period. But I think the newer manufactured ones lack just a tad compared to the ones of older make.
Link Posted: 11/7/2002 9:40:16 AM EDT
May as well check out a CZ97B also. Another big-hand gun like the USP. USP has better safety and mag controls, but I love the fine trigger and shooting of the CZ97B. If you like bright (stainless sig) see the superb blue that CZ has available.
Link Posted: 11/7/2002 2:03:48 PM EDT
I can't really add much to the praise you're reading about the USP. I love mine. My wife's compact 9mm is en route. If you look hard enough I'm sure you can find a NIB or LNIB stainless USP .45 Fullsize out there. They come up from time to time on Gunsamerica.com. HK discontinued the stainless fullsize models so get'em while you can.

You can also get an ambidextrous safety lever kit for the USP for about $50. My only gripe is that the accessory rail isn't "standard" like Glunks. This means if you want a light like the M3 you'll have to buy the HK UTL.

Well, I've got one other gripe. The double action trigger pull kinds sucks. You can buy a match trigger kit for about $100 but I don't think it's worth it. Keep it cocked and locked and you won't have to worry about it.
Link Posted: 11/8/2002 12:08:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/8/2002 12:09:37 PM EDT by DevL]
the HK Variant refers to its method of operation.

Variant 1 is a DA/SA with decock and safety right handed
Variant 2 is a DA/SA with decock and safety left handed
Variant 3 is a DA/SA with decock only right handed
Variant 4 is a Variant 3 but left handed etc

There are DA only versions etc. the list goes on...
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 2:48:14 AM EDT
I own the SIG 220ST. I like the added weight of the stainless. Makes for a soft-shooting, extremely accurate .45. Given a good break-in period and regular lube, it will run flawlessly for a long, long time.

Expensive, but I consider it the ultimate out-of-the-box .45. A good shooter can go a long way with this gun. The best short of custom jobs IMHO. Others prefer HK, of course.

Gov't model is a different story. The new 'bare-bones' Colt 1991A1 model will be my next purchase.
Link Posted: 11/10/2002 3:36:48 AM EDT
Had a USP 40 Compact, love the gun.
Big hands with small fingers loved the ambi mag release, the decocker, (a little dremel surgery) the serations on the trigger.
Hate the fact that you can't get hi-cap mags for it.
Now own a Glock 23.
If I could get hi-cap mags for the USP compact 40 I would sell the G-lock and get it.

At 6500 (aprox) rounds of nothing but factory ammo the trigger broke.
Sent it into H&K and they had it back in my grubby hands in less than a week.
Disconnector broke in less than 1,000 rounds later, sent it back in, K&K had it back to me in 4 days.
Put another 6000 plus rounds through it (this time using every cheap gun show and gun range reload) and never had a problem.
I added Trijicon night sights and that's it.


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