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Posted: 11/2/2002 9:12:20 AM EDT
I've read a lot of threads about the quality of Wolf ammo and its effects on guns, etc. Quite honestly, a lot of them involve folks saying, "I heard that..." or "I think...", but not much in the way of "I've got actual experience...".
I just returned from Defensive Handgun 2 at Thunder Ranch and have a few data points. I was shooting my Glock 34, 9mm, and my Kimber 1911 .45 ACP, both with Wolf ammo. I shot 350 rounds through the .45 (all I had) and around 1,500 rounds through the Glock. At the previous Handgun 1 class I shot over 1,000 rounds of Wolf.
One of the instructors looked at my ammo and said "That stuff is going to break your extractor." I asked him if he had actually seen Wolf break extractors and he said he had seen it on a couple of 1911 pistols. I asked if he had seen other ammo do the same and he said yes. I made it a point to ask a couple of other instructors the same question as they see a lot of ammo burned up, and they had not seen any problems, but one said "I heard..."etc.
The bottom line....I 've shot a lot of Wolf. Its dirty, and maybe not as accurate as high priced ammo, but I have not had any problems. My buddy and just pulled my extractor from the Glock for a good cleaning, and it shows no wear.
I have also attached a photo of a Winchester .40 cartridge from a neighboring shooter at Thunder Ranch that he gave me. You will notice that it has no primer. The powder was in there, but no primer. Now we all know Winchester is good ammo, but even they can have a problem. He had two of these in 1,500 rounds.
I'm sure my comments will finalize this question for all time. It was my pleasure to put the lid on it.


Link Posted: 11/2/2002 9:21:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/2/2002 9:23:02 AM EDT by Grock]
Winchester ammo sucks- specifically the "white box" crap every shop seems to push. Its the dirtiest junk I think I've ever used.
And there will never be a "last word" on Wolf. My AK loves it, and it has never caused a problem of any kind. Even its accuracy is not too bad considering the weapon (SAR1).
On the other hand, the ARs get brass cased ammo, either SA or LC. I think its just a matter of care and feeding of the differnt species.
For cheap plinking in handguns I have used Blazer for years. It too runs great, and is gentle on the hardware.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 10:12:16 AM EDT
One more last word topic for the millionth time.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 10:56:27 AM EDT
For whatever reason, a lot of firearms instructors generally will comment that your ammo (or gun or flashlight, etc.) sucks if its not the brand that they use. Once you've heard that line once or twice it gets stale.

The bottom line on ammo is, does it run in my gun? For training classes where you blow through 1,000-2000 rounds in a few days, the gun just needs to run. And for me, the cheaper the better. Do I carry Wolf for defense ammo? No. But for practice and blasting its generally sufficient.

The Wolf runs fine in my AR's and I don't think it's any dirtier than some factory reloads I've picked up. My HK USP .40 does not like Wolf, so I started loading my own practice ammo. I dialed down the powder until I got a load that would do three things: cycle the action, burn completely, minimize flash and recoil. I considered doing teh same thing with .223, but I just don't know if I can realisitcally come up with anything cheaper than Wolf.



Link Posted: 11/2/2002 11:23:46 AM EDT
Actually, TWIRE, the instructors ar Thunder Ranch do not criticize your equipment. They will give opinions on what they think is best if you ask, but they will teach you to work with anything you bring. The only restriction is 9mm or greater. And a couple of them were carrying Glocks.
They didn't say I shouldn't use Wolf, one just told me that, in his experience, it was hard on extractors. But he then readily agreed that it was cheaper than anything else and seemed to work fine for me.
One thing about Thunder Ranch, they don't try to sell you anything but training.

Link Posted: 11/2/2002 11:26:56 AM EDT
Go ahead and use wolf with an AR... Those gas tubes LOVE to have all those little red crystals of laquer in them..

After I fire about 200 rnds of wolf through my AK, I take the gun home and blast it out internally with an air compressor. POOF!!!! Red dust, red crystals, red scrapings!!!

Garbage in, garbage out. I don't care about my AK. I DO care about my AR. I DO care about my Les Baer.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 2:18:30 PM EDT
I completed LFI-I a couple of months ago and all I shot was the evil russian ammo through my Glock 22. Mas made a comment about the ammo in the beginning of the class, but since there were more malfunctions witht he .45's shooting brass cased ammo he couldn't say much when I completed the course without one malfunction and I shot a 297 out of 300.

There will never be a last word on this issue, and you will always here don't use the Wolf mainly from the guys who state that they will never use the ammo in there guns. Of course they can't explain why the ammo sucks because they haven't personally tried it. If it works for you just keep blazing away and take the money you save and buy another gun.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 2:33:34 PM EDT
My take on Wolf is as follows: It works flawlessly in every gun I have except one of my AR's. It welds itself into the chamber after about the 100th round every time I use it. Consequently I don't use Wolf in my AR's. One of them is a match gun so I wouldn't use it in that one anyway.

All I can say from my experience is to try it out and if it works for you great, if not then don't use it, but don't tell those of us that have had problems with it that we are crazy or are getting our information from "someone who knows someone". It's insulting.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 4:31:16 PM EDT
Here also. AK loves it, AR hates it. Sticks in the AR on hot days. Will continue using it in my AK, but wont run it in my AR anymore. Never tried their pistol ammo.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 4:40:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/2/2002 4:41:42 PM EDT by Old_Painless]
Re:
"All I can say from my experience is to try it out and if it works for you great, if not then don't use it, but don't tell those of us that have had problems with it that we are crazy or are getting our information from "someone who knows someone". It's insulting."

Sorry, JTW2, I didn't mean to insult. Didn't say you were crazy. Just passing along some data.

And the title "Last Word ... etc." was a joke. I know its not the last word.


Link Posted: 11/2/2002 5:56:22 PM EDT
I've only shot Wolf 7.62x54 in my mosin nagant but it worked fine. also it wasn't the lacquered greenish colored case, it had brass colored cases
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 5:56:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mugzilla:
Go ahead and use wolf with an AR... Those gas tubes LOVE to have all those little red crystals of laquer in them..

After I fire about 200 rnds of wolf through my AK, I take the gun home and blast it out internally with an air compressor. POOF!!!! Red dust, red crystals, red scrapings!!!

Garbage in, garbage out. I don't care about my AK. I DO care about my AR. I DO care about my Les Baer.



After serveral thousands of rounds of Wolf my extractors are in perfect shape and my rifles are clean. I used a bellows atachment to take a picture about 10x of the claw of one of my AR's. After running several hundred rounds of ammo I compared the photo to the extractor though a 20x jeweler's loop and didn't see a bit of difference.

Any mechanical engineering want to work out the pressure difference between brass and steel casings on an extractor?
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 6:08:55 PM EDT
I can honestly say that I had WOLF ammo (9mm) blow up a NEW CZ-75 combat IN MY HANDS!! Gun had 250 rounds ran through it, it appeared that the cause was a case rupture,bottom of case ruptured and blew saftey levers off and blew the bottom of the mag off,Blew extractor off,To this day I think the lacquer on the case was the cause of the problem, possibly built up enough to not allow the case to fully chamber, first 100 rounds were brass cases reloads that worked perfectly,(shot the weekend before, and yes, the gun was clean when this happened) Wolf's american distributor did make it right and replaced my pistol, But, they never sent me the results of their inspection of the pistol, although they promised they would send me a written report as soon as they found out,Hmmmmm, I'm still waiting...Anyway, I for one, will not use wolf in anything but a Soviet designed rifle or pistol,You guys wanna use it in your AR's go ahead, I won't touch it with a ten foot pole.....
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 6:09:38 PM EDT
Hooray, someone finally said it! I run into WAY too many people who HEARD that something sucks. It's kind of like keyboard commandos who could have taken the sniper singlehandedly with a dull #2 pencil. I have used Wolf in BOTH of my AR's my .223 AK, and my bolt gun. Not one problem. When (if)I have a problem, I will certainly compare my experience with other "quality" ammo I have used BEFORE I cry wolf.(Hey, a pun!) Kudos to you buddy for finally saying it. Just cause you heard it doesn't necessarily mean it's so. I remember buying my first Glock back in 89-90 and having the guy tell me "You don't want that ugly thing, I wouldn't trust it..."

Link Posted: 11/2/2002 6:51:11 PM EDT
I've run two cases of Wolf .223 through my M16 with no problems that weren't related to a worn mag catch. Out of 2000 rounds (1K per outing) there were about 10 FTF malfunctions, all mag or mag catch related. My mag catch was REALLY worn out. It was the original junky Sendra piece.

Just to be 100% clear about things, generally it was fired in the "one mag one burst" mode at the rate of 1000 rounds in two and a half hours.

My upper is a Bushy 11.5". I've seen Wolf stick in two different ARs. One has an Oly "5.56" stainless barrel that I suspect is a little on the tight side considering it won't close on some reloads. The other is a no-name garbage upper that doesn't have a chrome lined bore.

I don't buy that "hard on extractor" mumbo jumbo for a second. First off, AR extractors are too cheap to not have a spare or two on hand. Secondly, if the extractor is hardened correctly I just can't see it wearing much more quickly than with brass ammo. I know of three different UZIs (real ones, not the semi-auto ones) that have close to 10K rounds of Wolf 9mm through each of them with only the nominal 5K-7K extractor breakage on them.

As for being hard on handgun extractors, I call BS on it being hard on 1911 extractors for two reasons. One, if you know how a 1911 cycles you know that the rim slides up the breech face into the extractor. The extractor NEVER snaps over a rim. If you drop a round in a 1911 chamber and let the slide slam, you're destroying your 1911. Two, steel cased .45ACP was produced for WWII and used quite a lot in 1911s, or so says two of my grandfathers with first hand experience.

Most pistols don't snap the extractor over the case rim during normal cycling.

With Wolf ammo I have only one concern.

KABOOM

That's a concern with any ammo. Who do you think is more likely to help replace a lower?
Wolf or Praetoria Metal Pressings/Denel?
AFAIK, all the SA surplus is brought in by various importers who probably don't even try to give you any kind of guarantee or give a rat crap about a kaboom.

The one thing I really don't like about Wolf ammo is the filth. Since I like the price more than I dislike the filth, I'll keep buying and shooting it.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 7:28:11 PM EDT
Just ran about 900 rounds of Wolf thru my Bushy today...Had one FTF..No other problems. For punching paper YES, for protection NO.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 7:40:55 PM EDT
... My AR's digest Wolf ammo better than any other brand.

... They cycle it all day long narry a FTF. I clean my AR's on a "fairly regular" basis and have had no signs of wear outside of norm.

... Accurate well within expectations.

... Can't beat the price.

... Big difference between you and me: I run my firearms like I run my 4X4; Hard and without reproach. If Wolf gave me even one reason not to shoot it I wouldn't.
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 8:04:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/2/2002 8:11:31 PM EDT by USNJoe]
Good God People,
You don't know about Wolf ammo?

The steel cases will wear out your extractor and firing pin.

The steel bullets with the copper wash will wear out your barrel.

The powder is corrosive.

The laquer on the cases will gum up the bolt, carrier, recoil spring, chamber.

It won't extract when it gets hot and it won't fire if it's cold.

The red coloring will cause the gas tube to get clogged up.

Wolf ammo is responsible for warm beer.

It causes warts.

It makes small children cry.

It is responsible for the price of gasoline.

It is responsible for NAFTA.

It made Monica Lewinsky spit.

Wolf ammo spent the night in the Lincolin Bedroom at the whitehouse during Bill Clintons Presidency.

Wolf ammo causes traffic jams on the LA freeways.

It makes the US Post Office lose mail.

Wolf ammo made the crops fail and the great dust bowl of the 1930's.

Wolf ammo causes red algee blooms.

It is responsible for teenage pregnancy.

It caused the divorce of Sonny and Cher.

Wolf ammo is responsible for the Blue Screen Of Death.

It is made of pure steel melted down from unused Soviet aircraft carriers.

It contains depleted uranium.

It's filled with the same stuff that Twinkies are.



Sheese. Get real people.


Link Posted: 11/2/2002 8:09:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USNJoe:

It is made of pure steel melted down from unused Soviet aricraft carriers.



... All the more reason to cycle it!
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 8:23:57 PM EDT


It caused the divorce of Sonny and Cher.

Did it really?
Link Posted: 11/2/2002 9:02:30 PM EDT
Wolf ammo killed Kenny. YOU BASTARD!
Link Posted: 11/3/2002 5:21:20 AM EDT
Wolf 7.62x54R cycles just fine in my Mosin-Nagant M91-30 :)
Link Posted: 11/3/2002 5:29:37 AM EDT
This debate has been going on for a long time. It's very boring.
Link Posted: 11/3/2002 5:39:25 AM EDT
........Same material as twinkies???......that means we can deep fry it????......[:\]
Link Posted: 11/3/2002 5:53:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
One of the instructors looked at my ammo and said "That stuff is going to break your extractor."



And even if it did, replacing an extractor on a 1911 takes, umm, like 3 minutes.
Link Posted: 11/3/2002 6:55:58 AM EDT
Simple answer here. I shoot wolf in everything. If you don't like wolf please by all means don't buy it. More for me. BTW after my savings from using wolf over the summer I took what was left over in my ammo budget and bought a Yugo sks and another case of wolf to go with it. Oh, and I just finished cleaning and inspecting my bushy after finishing another case of Wolf. Nothing unusual and no complaints.
Link Posted: 11/3/2002 9:41:07 AM EDT
Just one more observation; the red stuff everyone talks about is the primer sealer the Russians put on the primers. Almost all military ammo has primer sealer to protect the primers from water or oils. It is a plus, not a negative. The red color does no harm. It cleans right up with no problem in my experience.
Thanks for all the good comments.

Link Posted: 11/3/2002 11:01:59 AM EDT
My personal technical analysis on Wolf ammo is as follows:

Pistols: Since in a properly working semi-auto pistol, the cartridge slides up "under" the extracter, a steel case case should not affect the extractor in the slightest. Now repeatedly drop the slide on a cartridge already in the barrel and make the extractor ride over the rim of the case and you might have problems over time. This even applies to brass cases, especially with extractors like on a 1911 which does not have a seperate spring. Thusly, the "drop slide on loaded mag, pull mag and top off" line of thought.

AR type rifle:
Since the extractor rides over the rim of the case every time, having steel impact steel would be more likely to cause extractor failures. Also figure that steel cases are harder than brass, the impact of the extractor riding over the steel rim would also cause more "bounce" of the extractor which might cause premature wear and failure on a sub-par extractor that would normally work fine with brass cases. Steel bounces off of steel harder than steel on brass due to steel's resistance to deformity. If the extractor is imperfectly heat treated, is more likely to fail.

Since the steel case is stronger than the brass, any sticky cases in the chamber are also more likely to break the extractor, as opposed to easily ripping off the rim on a brass case.

That said, if I was to design an AR excusively for steel case ammo, I would use a fluted chamber like an HK has, especially since you cant reload steel cases anyway and the fluting would give room for any varnish buildup in the chamber without making the cases stick.
Link Posted: 11/4/2002 11:05:30 AM EDT
what if:

someone with an industry "hook-up" cryo-treats a batch of extractors and offers them at a reasonable mark-up Or, one of the 3rd party parts manufacturers/distributers has a batch of extractors made from something like D2 tool steel, high speed steel, AUS-8 etc. even a $10-$20 extractor still puts you money ahead after a few cases of Wolf.

opinions?


i recently started shooting it and have 2k rds through a J&T kit carbine. its dirty but its cheap and fun. just like a good woman.
Link Posted: 11/4/2002 11:40:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/4/2002 11:45:36 AM EDT by Waldo]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ [:\] I don't have any issues with it other than the fact that it is dirty. I run it in all my ARs except the DCM. My 7.62X39 and 9mm uppers have never seen brass cased ammo. Never changed an extractor because of it either. Most of my friends are shooting it in their subguns now. They are all transferable, so they are worth big $$, and they just don't have a problem with it (except for the MP5s, fluted chambers) YMMV.
Link Posted: 11/4/2002 9:23:36 PM EDT
You want something to be scared of,well be scared very scared of S&B.

S&B won't even fire in my Tek-nine,wolf justs goes in and out like grease through a goose!

Yeh its dirty but not corrosive!

S&B is noted for many KABOOMS in many rifles,AR/15,M1A1,40 S&W,.45 acp just too many too mention!

You get what you pay for(and then some)!

Wolfs Okay by me if used in a non SHTF situation!

Just my .02 cents worth(DITTO TO THE ABOVE POSTS)

Bob
Link Posted: 11/8/2002 6:13:25 AM EDT
Wolf 9mm. Glock 17.

Was at the range and had a case fail to eject after firing. Tried to force the slide and couldn't get it to go anywhere. Went inside to ask one of the more knowledgable guys for a hand. Slide is closed and he has just come in and has no idea what I am shooting. He takes a look at the Glock, tries to move the slide and asks, "Wolf ammo?".

Apparently he has seen it quite a bit. I haven't used it since. YMMV.
Link Posted: 11/8/2002 10:51:07 AM EDT
I've had pretty good luck with Wolf in my 9mms. Have fired over 8,000 rounds without a problem. It has proven to be as reliable and accurate as anything else I've used.

Put a couple thousand rounds of 223 Wolf through 3 different AR uppers without a problem. That includes one session when I shot 500 rounds as fast as I could put the mags into the gun.

Couldn't get Wolf 45s to function in any of my 1911s. 2 out of 3 ain't bad.
Link Posted: 11/8/2002 2:58:10 PM EDT
As I indicated in my original post, I shot 350 rounds through my Kimber .45 ACP with no problems. I did notice that it was as hot as military ammo, i.e., it had a pretty good recoil.
But at TR, you do a lot of clearing drills and I found that the unfired rounds were right on the verge of being too long to cycle through the pistol. But it fired just fine.
Accuracy was fine too. On one drill, we were to draw, move backwards, and fire three rounds to the A zone. I did so, and the three rounds went into the same hole. One of the instructors was standing behind me and said, "Damn, Don!" I didn't tell him, but it was mostly luck.

Link Posted: 11/8/2002 7:53:36 PM EDT
Didn't someone on the board heat up some wolf cases and come to the conclusion that you could not get an AR hot enough for the lacquer to melt?

My Bushmaster loves it. Just shot an Oly with a colt barrel that would FTF every four or five round with it. This particular batch of ammo seemed to be under powered.
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