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Posted: 9/25/2002 12:00:28 PM EDT
I am testing for 6 different PD's in my area, and all of them have very similar choices for a personally owned duty weapon. The requirements for them are 9mm, .40S&W or .45ACP, double action (not DAO) or striker fired, and full size frame.

My requirements are the pistol must have a smaller counterpart that uses the same mags (i.e. Glock 22 and Glock 23 or 27), and be either .40S&W or .45ACP.

I am looking mainly at the HK USP45 and the Glock 21/22. SIG's are nice, but their .45 is a single stack (may or may not be a big problem). Anyway, just looking for opinions. Thanks,

Blackdog
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 12:50:58 PM EDT
People may laugh, but have you thought of the Para Ordnance P16-40 or P14-45 LDA models. DAO (kinda) and they have the P13 and P12 little brothers. I've had great luck with mine.



toast


if not, Glocks are very foolproof and hearty guns.
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 12:51:06 PM EDT
Sig.....in 357sig
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 12:58:48 PM EDT
Hard to fault your selections so far if they fit your hands well. Look for reliability, capability of use with one hand only, reliability, practical accuracy...how well YOU can hit with it, reliability, easy maintenence, rust resistance, and...did I say reliability?

Also, the USP compact will not take the mags from the full sized USP .45, it is a single stack.
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 1:04:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BlackandGreen:
Sig.....in 357sig



No can do .357SIG its not "qualified" for duty use.
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 1:08:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ikor:
Hard to fault your selections so far if they fit your hands well. Look for reliability, capability of use with one hand only, reliability, practical accuracy...how well YOU can hit with it, reliability, easy maintenence, rust resistance, and...did I say reliability?

Also, the USP compact will not take the mags from the full sized USP .45, it is a single stack.



Ok, thats a bummer! Is the USP40 a smaller frame than the USP45? Does the USP40 Compact use the same mags as the full size?
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 1:20:10 PM EDT
Can't go wrong with Glock. I have a G21 and G30 and I love them both. They are reliable, function under tough conditions and are in use by a lot of police agencies here in WA. The 21/30 tend to be rather large and awkward unless you have big hands. Although I don't own any gun in .40 it seems to be a good mix of power, and capacity for the Glock. A G22 will hold 15 or 15+2 with the extended base pads. The only reason I don't own a .40 is to limit myself to fewer handgun calibers. I already have .22, .32, 9mm, .38Spl, and .45ACP. While the 9mm is a good caliber and will stop a person with proper shot placement (as will a .22LR ) I think I would prefer the umph of something bigger.... and since the Glock 22 still gives you a full duty load of 15 rounds it is an excellent choice. Then you could pick up a G23 for off-duty/undercover carry, and a G27 for a back-up/off-duty gun. All will take the G22 mags.

My $0.02
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 1:31:28 PM EDT
A Glock in .40 is the only choice. I would go with the 35 or 22 as a duty pistol with the 23 as your off duty gun. I have a 27 that I'm not super fond of but it does fit well in the trauma plate pocket of a vest for "just in case". Don't let anyone steer you away from Glocks. I even earned an e-ticket (expert rating) signed by Cooper from Gunsite with a Glock.
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 1:39:58 PM EDT
Not sure about the other USP / USP Compacts and if mags will interchange, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that they will not. I believe H&K had to change the dimensions on the Compact mags to get the frames smaller. The USP .40 full size is built on a smaller frame than the .45, though.

I would not worry too much about the issue of a smaller model using the same mags, especially in .45 caliber. For off-duty, you may have a point, but for backup, it is not all that important that mags / calibers match.
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 1:51:41 PM EDT
Well I do carry/own the triumvirate of Glock 17/19/26 in WA as a CCW holder, so I am familiar with the Glock line. However I also own several 1911's, a Beretta 92FS, a SIG 220 in .45 and a SIG 225 and Glock 20 so I am very able to carry and learn with most any type of pistol. 9mm is fine to carry for CCW but I do not want to carry a 9mm for duty (if I make it!)
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 2:01:20 PM EDT
How about a 226 in .40 with the 229 as your secondary.........Or a 220 with a 245........ you see where I'm coming from....Sigs

Sig 228
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 3:04:03 PM EDT
o-k......sig in 40s/w......
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 6:30:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BlackandGreen:
o-k......sig in 40s/w......



What's wrong with SIG's in 40S&W?
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 7:44:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2002 9:17:42 PM EDT by Duke76]
The full sized HK USP and compacts will not share mags so I don't know if this will work for you. My choice however would be the HK over your other selections. The controls on the HK USP's and compacts are larger and easier to manipulate with gloves. Re-loads on the USP are much faster than the other selections, i.e.-after dropping your empty mag with your slide locked back you can firmly slam a new mag into the mag well which will engage the slide mech. and chamber the first round. Most other semi-auto pistols need you to operate the slide release after inserting the fresh mag to preform this function (USP = universal self loading pistol). If you have a USP and didn't know about this function you may want to try it, it can save valuable time during emergency reloads when getting back on target quickly is necessary. During some recent training, we were doing some malfunction and emergency reload drills. The re-load time for people using HK USP's and this technique was much faster than any other guns at the training.





Link Posted: 9/25/2002 8:30:03 PM EDT
Call the Ohio State PD. They came up with the America's toughest testing procedures. They tested just about all modern semi-autos; Glocks, SIG's, HK's, S&W, Ruger ect. They put thousands of rounds through all guns, tested in ALL types of situations, weather. They tested for reliability, accuracy and a dozen other factors.

After months & months of testing, there were a few surprises [like them or not]. I believe #1 gun was a Sig P226 in .40 followed by Sig P229 also in .40 cal. I'm not sure but I remember the HK full size USP-40 doing quite well. I believe after the test they adopted the P226 as issue firearm.

I hate to say it because I'm a Glock lover but the G23 came up short in a lot of respects. Also the HK compacts failed to perform all that well.

From what I read they it was quite a brutal test and a few companies wrote scathing reports about biased testing procedures. They were published about a year ago in a gun-mag, I forget which one.

By the way, too bad about you requirement to have interchangeable magazines, you're missing on a bunch of great choices.
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 9:11:15 PM EDT
I have heard that LORCIN and JENNINGS are great for duty (drop) weapons.
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 9:11:58 PM EDT
This is easy...A Sig 229 40 cal. Not a compact, not full size. Thus easy to control and small enough to carry off duty....NEVER any problems with ours.........
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 9:23:47 PM EDT
Ohio State PD???????????????? You mean the Ohio State Highway Patrol!!!!!! You were right about one thing..They did do an exhaustive amount of research when they dumped their Beretta 96D's a couple of years ago. They had some problems with the Beretta's slides cycling properly. They had a special finish that was made specially for OSP. The ONLY thing they were allowed to clean them with was mineral spirits...Then lubed with CLP. The troops carry the 226, and the plainclothes carry the 239. Personally, I'll take my 229 over either....I'm not sure if it meets all your criteria though..I have experience with all three....
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 9:25:35 PM EDT
1. A quality 1911. Nothing wrong with a single stack, but I carry a Limited Edition Para-Ord P13-.45, and it works just fine with all sorts of loads.

2. A Sig. My 226 was the most boring pistol I ever had. It always hit where I aimed and it fired every time without any foul ups. It is difficult to go wrong with a Sig. Good luck getting mags. Even LEOs have a hard time getting them. And there really is nothing wrong with having a .40 instead of a .45.

3. Glock. I have a personal problem with a weapon that has no external safety. Others don't have this problem, so take that for what it is worth. I will say that I am impressed with any weapon that has a frame that will withstand 450,000+ rounds. That is a weapon that your descendents might be using on the moon someday if handed down from father to son.
Link Posted: 9/25/2002 9:45:24 PM EDT
Love my Browning P-35 Hi-Power
Trust My Sig P220... 45acp
Link Posted: 9/26/2002 4:12:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BlackDog714:

Originally Posted By BlackandGreen:
o-k......sig in 40s/w......



What's wrong with SIG's in 40S&W?

What do you mean "wrong"?.......if you can`t carry 357sig....then get a sig in 40.....or even 45.........
Link Posted: 9/26/2002 4:17:19 AM EDT
Duke76;

All double column magazine pistols will "jump" the slide catch occasionally if you slam a mag in hard enough...try it. It is not something designed into them.

Mayday;

There are all kinds of reasons why agencies change weapons and "tests" can be designed to "prove" almost anything you want to prove. Often such "tests" are conducted after the winner has been pre-determined. Let's just say that the Ohio State Police PR line is not the whole story. No doubt, however, that the 226 was / is a good choice.

BlackDog714;

Bottom line is...get a good gun, load it with good ammo, learn to shoot it well, then work on OODA and tactics, etc. THAT is what will get you home safe. Don't get too caught up in the minor details. Do you really think it matters much which clubs Tiger Woods uses?
Link Posted: 9/26/2002 6:57:57 AM EDT
ikor,

Thanks for the info. I've never had this happen with any of my other weapons however, in retrospect I guess I never really tested for it. I do know that when I got my USP's several years ago I was pleased to discover this reload technique. As far as slamming the magazine in hard, the USP just requires a quick and firm motion to cycle the slide forward. I wouldn't consider it to be described as hard.
Link Posted: 9/27/2002 5:51:39 PM EDT
Whatever pistol you go with the idea is to stay uniform. I chose to carry a Glock and as a result I own six of them (19,27,17,34,35 and Advantage 22 LR) and sold all my other pistols. The trigger pull is different enough that I don't want to shoot or train with anything different. All of my Glocks are set up the same way with the same night sights, even my Glock with the .22 LR conversion.

If you want to go with a double action then choose the Sig line and stick with it. The USP line has a bunch of issues (I never will forget the cringe that the Gunsite instructors gave when they learned that someone had brought a USP type 1 variant to the class) and Berettas and Rugers are out of the question.

If single action is your choice then go with a 1911. The Kimber is hard to beat. Get a compact officer's model for off duty.

Just my $.02.
Link Posted: 9/27/2002 6:25:49 PM EDT
innocent_bystander:

Why do you say the Beretta is out of the question?
I thought about the Beretta line and see that the 8040/8045 Cougar F and 8040/8045 Mini Cougar F would be available in .40 and .45, respectively, plus fit the requirements of a large/small counterpart and magazine interchangability.
That would be MY choice, because I like Beretta pistols.

Another Beretta choice could be the 96 FS Compact, to fill both on/off duty roles.

The 92/96 series will interchange magazines with the new 9000 series, but, in keeping with the wise advice of staying uniform in operational characteristics, the safeties work opposite ways...unless DAO were an option, and, in this case, it isn't.

Ruger doesn't make smaller pistols, so they're out of the question, as you said.

My take on this thread is: Go GLOCK! You've got'em already and only need the .40 series to enhance the experience.
Good Luck.
Link Posted: 9/28/2002 9:36:11 AM EDT
Personal opinion although it is shared by numerous people, "Any pistol with slide mounted controls is not worthy of defensive use."

As far as the USP variant one goes. The double action pull is one of the worst out there so many people resort to carrying it cocked and locked. When you're in a hurry and knock the safety down from the cocked and locked position you will sometimes knock it dowm hard enough to decock it. I have also seen a bunch of people unintentionally drop magazines out of USPs as a result of how the mag release is set up.

I'm not just go Glock. I also like 1911s and Sigs. I just don't own any because the controls are too different from that of my carry gun which is a Glock.
Link Posted: 9/28/2002 9:55:06 AM EDT
Get yourself a Sig-Sauer P226/229 or a Glock 22, all in .40 caliber. You can't go wrong with either of these two.

Also, don't limit yourself by requiring a back-up that accepts the same mags as your primary. The back-up is secondary to your primary....remember that. With that said, it wouldn't be advisable to pass up a better quality gun for another of perhaps less quality just because you can use it's mags in a back-up.

Of course if you choose the Glock, you can always get the model 27 as a back-up, and it will use the larger mags if need be.
Link Posted: 9/28/2002 10:22:11 AM EDT
I am a 6 year law enforcement officer, serving first as a Washington DC cop, and now a deputy in Virginia. I am also a nationally certifed police firearms instructor. Having said that, my two cents is this:
In DC we carried Glock 17's as the duty gun. I had both a 19 and 26 for Vice/off duty/deep concealment use. Aside from that, I have owned 7 Glocks over the years and find them to be outstanding guns. I have never had a malfunction with ANY of mine, that was not due to faulty reloads, or cheap magazines. Stick to the Glock 22/23 combo and you'll be wel equipt.

In my current agency, we carry the SIG 229 in .40 cal. Good guns but way too high maintenence for street cops. I don't have a problem, butI'm a gun enthsiast cop. Most cops are not shooters. You will find that once you start making arrests and going to court, in-service training, specialty training, overtime details, and the like, your free time will be very, very limitted. The SIG requires much more maintenence and lubrication to have it run smoothly. The more lube, the more dirt and dust it attracts,hence the greater likelyhood for a malfunction.
There is a very good reason/s why the Glock is the most widely used Police gun in North America today. It is simple, it is utterly reliable, it is accurate, it is less expensive than other high quality Euro-guns, and it offers high capacity and iterchangability that the SIG does not. Of course, if I had it my way, I'd be carrying my good old 1911!!!!!
Link Posted: 9/28/2002 2:47:10 PM EDT
A revolver in .38 Special.

That's what ALL police should be armed with.



(Ok, maybe .41 Magnum...)
Link Posted: 9/28/2002 4:11:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/28/2002 10:13:35 PM EDT by Maynard]
Ya Arm the police with only .38's maybe they will be more polite knowing THE PEOPLE have all kinds of one up's on them.


They wanted me to become a POLICEMAN when i EAS'd from the Marines Ya right you would have seen the worlds most worthless cop.

Officer usmc0311 at the local Dunkin Donuts.

{disspatcher}...sshh...We have a 187,repeat a 187 on Whilshire Blvd...shhh.

{usmc0311}...sshh...You have a 187 repeat a 187...I have a Bearclaw and a chocolate milk...shhh.

{disspatcher}...shshsh...Officer usmc0311...you will procede to the area immediatly...shshsh...you have a brother officer down...shshsh.

{usmc0311}...shshshsh...No it sounds like a being at the wrong place at the wrong time scenerio...and its such a nice day i dont want to get shot...shshsh.

{disspatcher}...shshshsh...Officer usmc0311 the Chief says you have been fired!!!...shshsh.

{smc0311}...shsh..Okay...shsh.

Edit for maturity level
Link Posted: 9/29/2002 5:49:54 AM EDT
......easy on yourself dude........
Link Posted: 9/29/2002 5:52:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rifle-cop624:
I am a 6 year law enforcement officer, serving first as a Washington DC cop, and now a deputy in Virginia. I am also a nationally certifed police firearms instructor. Having said that, my two cents is this:
In DC we carried Glock 17's as the duty gun. I had both a 19 and 26 for Vice/off duty/deep concealment use. Aside from that, I have owned 7 Glocks over the years and find them to be outstanding guns. I have never had a malfunction with ANY of mine, that was not due to faulty reloads, or cheap magazines. Stick to the Glock 22/23 combo and you'll be wel equipt.

In my current agency, we carry the SIG 229 in .40 cal. Good guns but way too high maintenence for street cops. I don't have a problem, butI'm a gun enthsiast cop. Most cops are not shooters. You will find that once you start making arrests and going to court, in-service training, specialty training, overtime details, and the like, your free time will be very, very limitted. The SIG requires much more maintenence and lubrication to have it run smoothly. The more lube, the more dirt and dust it attracts,hence the greater likelyhood for a malfunction.
There is a very good reason/s why the Glock is the most widely used Police gun in North America today. It is simple, it is utterly reliable, it is accurate, it is less expensive than other high quality Euro-guns, and it offers high capacity and iterchangability that the SIG does not.[/ Of course, if I had it my way, I'd be carrying my good old 1911!!!!!]

it`s the last line I like......spoken by a man with experience...........
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