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Posted: 9/18/2002 8:07:13 AM EDT
When thinking of getting a 9mm AR I am hit in the face with the reality that an M1 Carbine may be a much better choice:

1. Firearm cost
9mm AR - $600 to $850 (kit only or whole gun)
M1Carbine - Commercial $300/USGI $450

2. Magazine cost
9mm AR - Mag Block + 10 used stens + loader is about $110
M1Carbine - 10 used 30's is about $110

3. Ammo
9mm is 1200 fps/380 muzzle energy
.30 is 2000fps/800 muzzle energy

4.Ammo cost
decent 9mm is $115 per case
.30 is $150

5. Preban status
Collapsible 9mm needs an $800 lower.
Collapsible M1 needs a $150 USGI stock

6. Scope mounting
Edge to the AR unless there is something I don't know

7. Accuracy is pretty much equal to 150 yards.

8. 9mm has edge in ammo selection unless you handload.

So I gotta know - Why would anyone take the AR 9mm over an M1? For me it just doesn't add up.

(Also posted in pistol caliber AR's)
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 8:33:06 AM EDT
Some whacktical-tactical types might argue that while most LEO's and former members of the military have been trained on the AR15/M16 weapons series, it is easier and cheaper to train someone to use a pistol caliber AR15/M16 than to start from scratch with an M1 carbine.

Personally I've never been smitten with the whole pistol caliber AR craze. I've considered putting one together, but I never took it further than a daydream.

The people who have them seem to love them though.

I think that some LEO/SWAT types tend to favor 9mm due to the fact that it will not penetrate as many residential type walls as a rifle round.

But I'm not an LEO/SWAT guy. Ergo, I never had a use for a 9mm carbine. I did, however, have my share of el cheapo M1 carbines and I enjoyed each and every one of them.
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 8:55:56 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 9:24:41 AM EDT
Since you posted this question in two places.......

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=15&t=139923
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 9:32:15 AM EDT


3. Ammo
9mm is 1200 fps/380 muzzle energy
.30 is 2000fps/800 muzzle energy



9mm is 1200fps out of a 5" barrel. I don't know what it is, but I think its a great deal faster out of a 16" barrel.

But then again, I'd personally want an M1 Carbine than a 9mm AR-15
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 9:33:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 556fiend:So I gotta know - Why would anyone take the AR 9mm over an M1? For me it just doesn't add up.


I wouldn't!

If it's an AR, it needs to be 5.56mm or larger. Otherwise it needs to be something else. The M1 Carbine is the perfect solution if you want a gun more compact and lightweight than the 16" AR carbines and the M1's .30 carbine load is certainly better than any 9mm out there, especially when you feed it JSP or HP ammo.

Perhaps a 9mm AR would be ok for plinking fun with cheap 9MM ammo, but for serious work stick to a serious caliber. Otherwise just keep your handgun as your primary weapon!
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 1:19:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 1:22:03 PM EDT
As noted in the twin thread .... one major reason to go with the 9mm upper is that it can be shot at most indoor ranges, while .30 Carbine isn't allowed.

For those of us who live where indoor ranges are far closer and more convenient, the 9mm upper translates to much more trigger time .... and the more you practice, the better you shoot.

As also noted, when the going gets serious, my 5.56 upper goes on ... but the practice with the 9mm upper still applies w/5.56 use.
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 2:39:24 PM EDT
I thought I read a post somewhere's stating that an M1 Carbine was singled out as not being an assult rifle. So it was legal to put a collapsible Wire Stock on them. I don't know for sure. Just wondering for my own info too.
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 2:44:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tony_k:
As noted in the twin thread .... one major reason to go with the 9mm upper is that it can be shot at most indoor ranges, while .30 Carbine isn't allowed.

For those of us who live where indoor ranges are far closer and more convenient, the 9mm upper translates to much more trigger time .... and the more you practice, the better you shoot.

As also noted, when the going gets serious, my 5.56 upper goes on ... but the practice with the 9mm upper still applies w/5.56 use.



I know of no range in my area, indoor or outdoor, that prohibits any rifle caliber, including the .30 carbine.
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 5:59:04 PM EDT
Many good points have been made here..... I won't argue ballistcs, velocity or ammo prices with you. But when it comes down to it, you must admit that the AR-15 .9mm has the cool factor going on. Not knowing the caliber, the enemy will see you approaching with this awesome looking black carbine and hopefully bow out of the fight even before it begins!

If you won't buy my reasoning.... then I will leave you with this thought : it's dependable, accurate, lightweight, wicked looking and totally fun to shoot!

Go Colt though....

http://www.printroom.com/_vti_bin/ViewImage.dll?userid=DUKE76&album_id=99164&image_id=1&courtesy=1
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 8:34:00 PM EDT
Tell me where I can find orig M1 carbines for 450.00! And new 30 round orig mags are about 19.00. But they are what they are,short range combat long pistols!

But you just got to love em!

Bob
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 10:56:16 PM EDT
Funny thing, I just happend to have come across this post earlier this evening:
64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000084.html

Goes into how the .30 Carbine is quite impressive still with good ammo.

Where do you guys live that USGI carbines are $450 bucks? Thats insane, in less its some sort of limited edition. $250 is about right-if its in good condition.
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 11:03:01 PM EDT
Please give me the name of the place that Has M1 carbines in the $250 dollar range.
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 11:03:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
Only original M1A1 Carbines, or M1 Carbines that you can show had the stock installed before 9/13/94 (or were otherwise configured as AWs) can have folding stocks now.
-Troy



Excuse me? Are you saying that the WW2 era guns cannot have a repo wire stock installed on it? This is Federal or CA law?
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 11:22:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/18/2002 11:23:14 PM EDT by Sixgun357]
Is what he is saying is, If the gun has collapsing stock it is an Assualt rifle, and it must have been a completed assualt rifle before 9/94. Despite what some people believe you can not take a stripped lower that was made before 9/94 and make it into a complete assualt rifle with all the evil features.


old.ar15.com/legal/preORpost.asp
Link Posted: 9/18/2002 11:53:54 PM EDT
Thats what makes those early para-trooper M1 carbines so expensive!

Bob
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 12:01:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2002 12:03:13 AM EDT by NORTH556]
I've owned several M-1 Carbines, Stick with GI carbines, I owned an Iver Johnson mfg'd in the 80's that was a POS, lots of problems with feeding (mags worked with all the other carbines I owned).

Stick with the GI 15rd mags, extremely reliable, plentiful, and relatively cheap. For the most part, 30rd mags are problematic. Most 30rd mags floating around are after market, as the 30rd mags were designed for the select fire M-2 Carbine.

As far as ammo selection, 9mm offers a plethora of choices vs the Carbine's rather limited bullet selection. Due to the .30 cal Carbine's velocity, energy, and bullet construction- the round is a notorious for over penetrating in humans, however, it is a rather effective round for penetrating light cover such as doors, glass, light sheet metal, soft ballistic vests, etc.... For antipersonnel use, go with the 110gr jacketed soft point.

Finally, since all the cool kids have one, it is much easier to accessorize your AR. Good luck
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 12:22:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NORTH556:
I've owned several M-1 Carbines, Stick with GI carbines, I owned an Iver Johnson mfg'd in the 80's that was a POS, lots of problems with feeding (mags worked with all the other carbines I owned).

Stick with the GI 15rd mags, extremely reliable, plentiful, and relatively cheap. For the most part, 30rd mags are problematic. Most 30rd mags floating around are after market, as the 30rd mags were designed for the select fire M-2 Carbine.

As far as ammo selection, 9mm offers a plethora of choices vs the Carbine's rather limited bullet selection. Due to the .30 cal Carbine's velocity, energy, and bullet construction- the round is a notorious for over penetrating in humans, however, it is a rather effective round for penetrating light cover such as doors, glass, light sheet metal, soft ballistic vests, etc.... For antipersonnel use, go with the 110gr jacketed soft point.

Finally, since all the cool kids have one, it is much easier to accessorize your AR. Good luck




Thats just my game I wany to hit bone then break it splinter it and make many exit wounds,only use hollow points in my 10mm just to make it slow down to do the above! If I want to pussy whip you and piss you off I would shoot you with my PT-22! But hell that could be deadly too!

Bob ]:D]
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 12:36:18 AM EDT
I too would like to know where to get my hands on a USGI M1 Carbine for 450 bucks or less. All the ones that I have seen, except for the reproductions (IAI doesn't look THAT bad) have been 500+ bucks. I am in the market for one, though.

-Gloftoe
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 1:47:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2002 2:25:15 AM EDT by NORTH556]

Let me clarify. Based on the available data, (such as testing using calibrated ballistic gelatin, review of actual shootings using .30 Carbine, and based on personal observation), it is my opinion that the 9mm using a good, proven expanding hollow point fired from a rifle length barrel is far more likely to do more tissue and bone damage than a non-expanding .30 Carbine FMJ.

Hypothetically, (provided that they are of similar bullet construction and weight), if two rounds (.30 cal and a .38 cal) have identical muzzle velocities and muzzle energies, the smaller caliber of the two will have greater penetration. Now when compared to the 9mmx19mm round, if one factors in the higher velocity of the .30 Carbine round, smaller diameter (smaller frontal area), greater muzzle energy (more than double), and the use of a non expanding bullet design, all equates a round that is great for penetration, yet some what lacking for tissue damage/disruption.

Ballistically, the .30 Carbine doesn't have the velocity to create a large temporary wound cavity due to hydraulic pressure, due to the round's design- it doesn't usually fragment, that in combination with the higher velocity and energy (compared to the 9mm), the .30 Carbine's permanent wound channel tends to be relatively small, yet penetration is typically far greater than pistol rounds such as 9mm JHP or even 9mm FMJ.

Bone is extremely resilient and somewhat flexible when alive. The fragmentation of bone and the dependence on the bone fragments as effective secondary projectiles for tissue damage can not be depended upon. If you look at an adult human skeleton (frontal view), the ribs, cartilage, clavicle, and 3 bones that make up the sternum compose a relatively small area when compared to the entire frontal area of an adult human.

Assuming you are aiming at center of mass, if you hit a rib, one of the bones of the sternum, or the cartilage that supports the ribs and sternum with a pistol or low velocity rifle round, typically very little damage is done to the bone structure, as bones do not tend to shatter. Typically, when a projectile that passes through living bone, such as a human rib, the projectile tends to make a jagged hole about the same diameter of the round with splintering being exhibited around the edges of the hole on the exit side of the bone.

Based on available data and personal observation; while the .30 Carbine Jacked Soft Points tend to expand slightly and penetrate less than the FMJ round in calibrated ballistic gelatin, I would choose the 9mm over the .30 Carbine, at least until better designed expanding rounds become available.


Link Posted: 9/19/2002 5:42:01 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 6:36:07 AM EDT
I geuss it depends on where you live that determines how much USGI M1's are. Kinda like Pre-Ban Ar's go from $1000-$1500 generally. I have seen USGI M1's in the $400-$550 range, but they may be higher in other regions.

Yes, "new" M1 30's are more than used ones, just like "new" sten mags are more than the used ones I quoted.

As far as lightweight, the M1 weighes less than the AR by a few POUNDS.

I geuss reliability would be similar(???) because both do not have a gas system.

You are not limited to only using .30 FMJ. There are .30 cal hollowpoints, softpoints, etc. You are probably limited to 5-10 choices in .30 versus 40+ choices in 9mm.

It sounds to me like the "it looks cool" factor is the one that seals it for most people. The best argument I have heard is "one less caliber to keep up with." I have really wanted a 9mm AR bad, especially with the stens. But even if you lay the money issue aside, it looks like they are very closely matched. Personally, I would go M1, but would be happy with either really.

How does one prove the date the stock was added? Receipts? Sounds awfully difficult to authenticate, and one could be easily ripped off with a fake.
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 7:17:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2002 7:32:15 AM EDT by NORTH556]
_____________________________________________
I geuss reliability would be similar(???) because both do not have a gas system.
_____________________________________________
Not trying to nit pick, but the
M1 Carbine is not blow back operated.
The M1 Carbine is Gas Operated,with a rotary bolt lock up. It uses a short stroke gas piston connected to the charging handle that is similar to the M14/M1A design. Original GI M1's are extremely reliable, provided that you use the 15 rd mags, and good FMJ ammo (it was designed to feed FMJ's, not all M1's will reliably feed JSP's or JHP's).


Link Posted: 9/19/2002 9:47:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2002 9:55:16 AM EDT by cybersniper]
As far as the collapsing stock question goes on a M1 carbine, wasn't Inland the only company to produce the M1A1 from the factory? Therefore as long as you have an Inland in the serial number range that the M1A1 was produced, you could put on a repo M1A1 stock as a replacement part.

556fiend- Ive been looking into the same question myself as I've been looking for a smaller less expensive rifle to leave at my cabin. Dont want to leave a $700 AR. I looked at sub caliber rifles including the Kel-Tec 2000 in .40S&W. However, I already own a few M1 carbines and with handloaded HP's or JSP's I beleive the results will be what I'm looking for. I agree with above as far as the lack of sighting options/mounts go, but its only a 100-150yard gun anyway. Unless you have bad vison the peep sight should be fine.
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 10:41:46 AM EDT
You forget, USGI M1's have a bayo lug. So they are bre-ban assault weapons.
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 10:51:16 AM EDT
At the last gun show I was at I over heard one dealer saying that his suppler was working on a 30 carbine upper for AR's. He was selling Oly uppers, so I think he was talking about OLY.

I remember reading that 30 carbine is similar ballistically to 38 spl. And that the M1 carbine was intended to replace pistols for most non frontline troops. So the 30 carbine is a pistol for troops that are trained with rifles. Personally id pick a 9mm AR with +P ammo over a M1 carbine any day.
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 11:50:26 AM EDT
Only late production and reworked USGI carbines had the bayo lug. With out it you could add another evil feature.
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 11:50:58 AM EDT
Troy,

Since I never took a certified picture in 1992 when I put a Choate folder on my Universal it is an illegal assault weapon? The ATF has to prove that it was not installed before 9/1994, My Universal M1 was made in the 50's or 60's and the folder was made in the early 90's before 1994, I but the rifle in the stock in 1992.
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 12:00:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2002 12:01:38 PM EDT by Coax]
Troy,

Since I never took a certified picture in 1992 when I put a Choate folder on my Universal it is an illegal assault weapon? The ATF has to prove that it was not installed before 9/1994, My Universal M1 was made in the 50's or 60's and the folder was made in the early 90's before 1994, I put the rifle in the stock in 1992.
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 3:14:40 PM EDT
I'm with Coax on this one, except I'm coming from a buyers perspective. How can someone "prove" to me that the collapsible stock on their M1 was installed before the '94 ban? Should I even worry about this because it is an unenforcable law?

I agree that 9mm gives many more options in ammo selection, but even in a 16 inch carbine the .30 has much more power.
Link Posted: 9/19/2002 4:27:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/20/2002 12:43:38 AM EDT
An AR, in any caliber, has much better ergonomics than the M1 Carbine.
Link Posted: 9/20/2002 3:41:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
An AR, in any caliber, has much better ergonomics than the M1 Carbine.



Ar15fan,

You may want to consider the following two time honored principles and a new third principle in reaching a final decision:

(1) Select the cartridge first, the firearm second.

(2) Never take a pistol to a gunfight.

(3) Never take a pistol cartridge to a gunfight (new principle).
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