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Posted: 9/8/2002 8:21:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2002 11:36:41 AM EDT by Renn]
I'll be giving a breif entitled M16: Myths and Facts to a class of Army Intelligence officers in a week. Most of my class are West Pointers. I'd appreciate any material that would help me out i.e. pics, short vids, articles...
OK...for all you people that think I am a dumbass or to those who think officers are all encompassing about the standard infantry weapon I am looking for cool stuff like vids or facts that aren't generally known. I know enough about the development of the 16. I've been shooting HP for about 2 years and combat rifle for about 3. Been to Wilson once. The reason why I am asking here is that we are slowly dying from endless powerpoint presentations and I am searching for other interesting media or facts. The reason why I am giving this brief is because at that beginning of this course I was hearing things like "I can flex the barrel on the M16 with my hands" "I would trash my 16 and get an SKS" "The AKs are far superior" "the M16 jams too often" There are even some who interchange the term ACOG with ALL optics mounted on M16s and other weapons.
Now I hope those who flamed me get a better understanding
Thanks,
Renn
rennychee­@aol.com
Link Posted: 9/8/2002 10:09:11 PM EDT
Sounds sort of like giving a class on "How to fly a kite" to Neil Armstrong.

Not really trying to be a smart ass, but what sort of info are you supposed to be presenting?

For any modern relevance, I think I'd try to size it up with current mil issue rifles other nations use, either with us or against us.

An AK comparison for starters might be a decent place to start and then go on to the Brit's SA-80, the German G-36 and so on.

Possibly move in to the multiple platforms available that keep the M16 family viable after all these years. Look down the road some too....see if you can identify any mods(ie: the Land Warrior model...and beyond.) Personally, I think the Land Warrior system is the final stage in the M16's history.

Link Posted: 9/8/2002 10:53:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/9/2002 2:22:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2002 2:25:57 AM EDT by Tate]

Originally Posted By M4:
Sounds sort of like giving a class on "How to fly a kite" to Neil Armstrong.



M4 - if you think that all US Army officers or all West Pointers are small arms experts, you are **sadly** mistaken. 99% of army officers know less about M16s than the more estute members of this board. The army ain't full of Troys and Tweaks - not by a long shot.

Believe it.
Link Posted: 9/9/2002 4:37:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2002 5:37:42 AM EDT by 5subslr5]

"The Black Rifle" by Stevens and Ezell would be on my list of references.

If you have your briefing on paper and if the briefing is not classified, then post a link and we might be better able to help proof-read.

I have a rudimentary knowledge of the AR-15/M16 in the early stages from ArmaLite to Colts'. If you have any specific questions please post or email/IM me direct.

The beginning of the M16 was the AR-10 - that's where I would start. Then I would probably move to the SCHV program..................... .
The first .22 weapon designed by ArmaLite was a rifle called the "Stoppette" and was in .222 cal. Robert Enewold designed this gun. Almost certainly the ArmaLite designator was the AR-11.

Myths abound re the AR-15/M16. Most often Stoner is given credit for designing the AR-15/M16 but that's just not correct. Stoner never believed the 5.56mm cartridge was a correct caliber for military use and only designed two guns while at ArmaLite - the AR-10 and the AR-16 both in 7.62. (James Sullivan and Bob Fremont designed the AR-15.)

I believe I would cover the Army's tragic move from IMR powder - for which the gun was designed - to Ball powder to which the Army moved without notification to either ArmaLite or Colts' and the tragic loss of life that resulted from this move to our troops in Vietnam. Also the fact the chamber was not chromed and no cleaning kits were issued with the early M16's.

This is a fairly complex subject you've been assigned or chosen.


Edited to add: I've chosen to go back to the beginning but a more current fact that I believe MUST be addressed is the continual shortening of the M16 barrel and the wider deployment of these weapons. The M16 was designed to function with a 20" barrel (although we later learned that an 18.25" barrel is fine) and some of these M4 variants are down to 14.5" -11". Ammunition, bullet weight and barrel twist should also be discussed.

In too many cases the HV component of SCHV has been removed and you have a .22 cal weapon that will only take a doer down inside 100 yds. Maybe around 60 yds.

Link Posted: 9/9/2002 6:07:24 AM EDT
Not to be a smart a$$, but you're TEACHING (or "brief" as you put it) a class on myths/facts of a particular topic and you're asking us for advice????

Doesn't that put you in a position of a lack of credibility for the students???? (i.e. a teacher who doesn't know what he's teaching???)

I'd say, you should have done your homework long before a week ago brother.

Good luck. Hopefully there won't be some student in the class the actually does know more about the topic better than you do. Maybe he can help ya out....
Link Posted: 9/9/2002 6:14:00 AM EDT


Hk, it has been my experience that often the brighter among us are most often the seekers of advice.

Sometimes advice is sought simply to confirm.
Link Posted: 9/9/2002 9:17:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2002 9:18:16 AM EDT by u-baddog]

Originally Posted By Hk45USP:
Not to be a smart a$$, but you're TEACHING (or "brief" as you put it) a class on myths/facts of a particular topic and you're asking us for advice????

Doesn't that put you in a position of a lack of credibility for the students???? (i.e. a teacher who doesn't know what he's teaching???)

I'd say, you should have done your homework long before a week ago brother.

Good luck. Hopefully there won't be some student in the class the actually does know more about the topic better than you do. Maybe he can help ya out....



I attend classes all the time were the instructor is not the most knowledgeable person in the class on any given subject. The point is the rest of the class is in real need of basic knowledge of the subject at hand. The instructor is there to teach the class, not the smartest person in the class.

If you knew everything about one single thing, you would be a genius. Not many out there, is there?

To not ask for help is the foolish thing.
Link Posted: 9/9/2002 9:55:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/9/2002 12:30:36 PM EDT by AR_Rifle]
Go here for AR15/M16 FAQs mainly dealt with Colt.

www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/

The saga of the M-16 in Vietnam.

www.jouster.com/articles30m1/index.html

A short history on the M-4

www.specialoperations.com/Weapons/Features/M4/Default.html

www.specialoperations.com/Weapons/M4.html

The Isreali Special Force Home page

www.isayeret.com/weapons/guide.htm
Link Posted: 9/9/2002 11:39:57 AM EDT
Thanks to all those links and words of advice...not only on my brief but on my continual search for knowledge.

Renny
Link Posted: 9/9/2002 2:46:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tate:

Originally Posted By M4:
Sounds sort of like giving a class on "How to fly a kite" to Neil Armstrong.



M4 - if you think that all US Army officers or all West Pointers are small arms experts, you are **sadly** mistaken. 99% of army officers know less about M16s than the more estute members of this board. The army ain't full of Troys and Tweaks - not by a long shot.

Believe it.



Good point....point taken.
Link Posted: 9/10/2002 1:08:50 AM EDT
Relax.....the way his question was worded, sounded like he was stress'n about a topic he knew little about.

I believe it would be better for a person that is tasked to teach something that doesn't know how to teach a particular topic, should admit it and tell the "boss", find someone more knowledgable on the topic.

My credibility is more respected when I admit that I'm not qualified to teach something I know little about. I don't try to "wing it" either. I'll seek out a more qualified instructor on a particular topic and have him/her present it to my students.

That way I learn and the students learn.

I say, Renn, stick to what you're good at teaching. Leave the questionable stuff to someone else that knows that particular subject.

(Now I know this is gonna pi$$ someone else off with a wicked response. Relax, it's only the internet!)
Link Posted: 9/10/2002 5:34:58 AM EDT
Your best source of information would be Col. Chuck Santose on the Yahoo groups AR15 list. groups.yahoo.com/group/AR15-L/
He will answer your questions without giving you a ration of shit, plus the answers will more than likely be geared for the "types" of people you are going to be presenting to.

To those who cut this fine American down I say shame on you. What is wrong for a person to "arm" themselves in order to be equipped for the "battle".
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