I've decided that it's time for me to get a 1911 style .45.  Although at the upper end, these are still within my price range, so please withold any suggestions about anything more expensive.

which would you recommend?

Wilsons are great. But, I absolutely love Springfields. That would be my first and foremost choice hands down, personally.

Kimber Classic, Kimber Custom, Kimber Royal, Kimber Gold, Kimber CDP, Kimber Pro, etc, etc.

See a pattern here?

I had a Kimber classic Royal that out-shot my buddies $1600 Wilson

I've read a lot of posts where someone says to get a Kobra, but I've never read any articles from Gun Tests, G&A, etc... about the Kobra.  What kind of accuracy is it getting?  Anyone know of the reliability after 1K, 3k, 5k+ rounds?

Libertas an Mortis!!

Quoted: Find a used Les Baer TRS or a Ed Brown Kobra and you'll really be happy.

Those would be far better choice then the ones you are looking at.  Thunder ranch special represent value, workmanship and reliability, for 1600, it is a better choice then the Wilson CQB.  Besides the CQB's finsih do not last well.

SpringField is a great gun for a great price, I just find the teeth on the front strap at something like 20 or 30 lines per inch hurts my hand in a firm grip.  the TRS is much better at 40 lines per inch.

Quoted: Find a used Les Baer TRS or a Ed Brown Kobra and you'll really be happy.

Yep

Quoted: Quoted: Find a used Les Baer TRS or a Ed Brown Kobra and you'll really be happy. Those would be far better choice then the ones you are looking at.  Thunder ranch special represent value, workmanship and reliability, for 1600, it is a better choice then the Wilson CQB.  Besides the CQB's finsih do not last well. SpringField is a great gun for a great price, I just find the teeth on the front strap at something like 20 or 30 lines per inch hurts my hand in a firm grip.  the TRS is much better at 40 lines per inch.

According to the LesBaer website, the TRS has 30 lpi.

I appreciate the comments and suggestions from everyone.  This is one of those things where I've decided that it's time to get a nice 1911 style .45 "right now", but up until this point I haven't paid much attention to them.  

CaptainSanity what part of CA do you live in?

CaptainSanity what part of CA do you live in?

I looked into the Les Baer, Springfields and Wilson. I bought a Wilson CQB. The Les Baer uses out sourced parts is blued and is a fine pistol but has brake in issues. The Springfields quality seems to go up and down like a yo-yo but they are also a fine choice.. ie.. Springfield TRP.

The finish on the Wilson CQB is far better than any pistol I have seen. It will far out last you owning it. The Wilson CQB also will shoot same hole groups out to 35 yards ... I've done it! Out of the 2500 rounds I have not had any issues, jams, accuracy problems with different makes of ammo. It is equal to or better than any pistol I have owned, shot, or seen.

Also fit and finish are out of this world!

Sned, I'm in the San JOse area.

I was looking at a stainless TRP at Target Master's in Milpitas last night and really liked it, but wanted to do a little research instead of giving into impulse temptation.

It seemed a good deal compared to the others for about $1200.  I wanted to try to stay under 1400; I was confused about how much the cqb's are.

I'm also from San Jose. If you wish to try out a Valtro before buying one let me know, your welcome to put some rounds through mine.   Are you dead set on a 1911?  If not, you’re also welcome to try out my Sig 220 sport.

Sned, thanks for the offer.  I'll let you know if I'd like to take you up on it.

Where do you normally shoot?

hehe...no more sig sauers....my relatively young pistol collection needs some variety...already have a 229, 225, and 2340...thanks anyway

I shoot at Reed's indoor range.  Send me a email at [email protected] if you wish to try out the Valto some time.

Yep, buy a TR Special or Ed Brown Kobra. While I don't have any first hand knowledge about the Valtro I can say this about your other two options. Both the Wilson and the Springfield are overpriced for what you get in the gun. The Springfield is nothing more than a dressed up "Loaded" model that still comes with a poorly fitted two piece barrel and cast or MIM parts. Every TRP I have seen wasn't worth the $1200+ price tag especially when you consider that one can buy a Les Baer Premier 2 for about $200 more or a Concept 2 for less than $200 more. Now a Springfield TRP Pro Model... there's a Springfield to own!

The Wilson is a better deal than the Springfield but is still sold with an MIM ignition system and a spray on bake on finish. $1800 and you don't even get tool steel parts or a better finish like Black T or hard chrome. Hell, Wilson doesn't even finish cutting the top beavertail radius on the frame tangs. Wilson's customer service is top notch though and they do produce one helluva product but their guns are nowhere near as nicely fished as either the Baer or the Brown.

For $1620 you can buy a TR Special that will have better parts and have a better fit and finish than the CQB or the TRP... $1820 for one in hard chrome. Or for about $300 more than a blue TRS (or about $120 more than a CQB) you can buy a stainless Kobra and be able to choose for yourself what sights you want in the gun. On top of that the Kobra that I had a chance to inspect had the best barrel I have ever seen in a semi-custom 1911. Both the TRS and Kobra are leaps and bounds better than the CQB or TRP... better parts, better finish, better fit, and on and on.

Though I agree with AJohnston the TR is a great 1911 I don't get the better fit and finish thing. (ie Blued and many outsourced parts beyond tolerance)

This parts debate has been ran over I don't know how many times on the Wilson board. The differences between Wilsons $1700 CQB, $2500 and $3500 model Wilson 1911s show no real differences in performance; though the "better" parts thing always comes out. My CQB does and can make one hole out to 35 yards. The other new Wilson models do the same. From what I can gather many CQB owners with over 50 to 60,000 rounds have not replaced any parts.

When talking about these grade of 1911s you start getting into how many angels can dance on the tip of needle. So while I think the Les Baer pistols are a good choice I would say it would be silly to say they were better.

How about Rock River Arms?  Used to work for Les Baer, so you're getting the same quality without coughing up the $$ for a name like Baer or Brown or Wilson.  Whenever I think of getting a good 1911, its still the Rock River that I look to.

Are you positive you want a 1911...crack is cheaper and you will make more friends ;) No really welcome to the dark side 1911's just have a certain thing about them that keeps people comming back for more ammo. I just looked at a few LBC 1911's and was not impressed at all my dad has an older TR and it is very nice I think that they are having issues with quality now for whatever reason. The Springfield is very nice and is from their custom shop. I have seen a few used for 900 well worth it IMO but at 1200-1300 you would be better off getting a stock Kimber or SA and finding a 1911 smith. Ed Brown is hands down the ideal that I think 1911's should aspire to. The Bob tail kobra is beyond reproach in fit, finish and accuracy. Did I mention finish....blueing like no other. Kimber is the best bang for the buck period. I like wilson and have a huge respect for what he has done for the forward progression and evolution of the 1911 but I think ED is better for the $$. A 1911 should be what you want it to be anything off the shelf will be what somebody else thinks you want it to be. Do it right the first time decide on a frame and slide and read articals and handle as many top end guns as possible. Get a brownells and find the components you like and can afford. Then give the bag O goodies to a reputable and trusted crack dealer (er I mean gunsmith) and own a gun tailored for your wants and needs. Contrary to popular opinion you do not have to spend and arm and a leg. My first custom was a new SA ($550.00) that I had worked over by D&V custom ($700.00). Total cost $1250.00 who was it built for ME!!
Unfortunatly I had only intended on owning one high end 1911 two and a half guns later and a second job to support my addiction...I regret not saying yes to drugs and saving the $$$

Hope you decide on the right 1911 for you. Let us know what you decide on. I would post pics of my SA, Kobra and STI but I wont spend $200.00 on a digi-cam ,thats a new Briley barrel :)  

Alright, I don't have the time right now to address everyone's comments, but I appreciate them all.

The number of reputed gunsmiths out there is daunting.  Being new to this arena, I think my best bet on my first one would be to get a semi-custom in the 1k-2k price range to start out with, and move on from there once I learn more about them. That way I could learn more about the gun by actually handling it rather than trying to research and decide which of all the competing opinions is the correct one concerning what parts to get and who to use. I also want to get one sooner than later, so months and months of waiting isn't really appealing either.

My current status is:

Went back and looked at the Springfield TRP.  Decided that the 20 lpi checkering on the frontstrap is too severe (thanks SMGLee) when holding it with a firm grip.  Does the TRP Pro have the same lpi, or is it finer?

I would tend to prefer a stainless or hardchrome finish, so guns that are only offered in blue or offered in other finishes for an extra premium are weighed down a bit.  

So far, every review I've read about the Valtro has been quite positive, save for the "buy an American gun" crowd.  I understand the sentiment, but if this gun can compete with one costing twice as much, the choice is pretty obvious.  As far as I know it's only available blue, and the one I've seen at the gunstore (sold 24 hours later when I went back to look at it) didn't have night sites.  I really want fixed night sites.  Its price is quite attractive considering how well it's supposed to perform.

I want to like the CQB.  Every time I see a picture of one I dig it.  I like the green frame/black slide color combo, but have seen gray/black ones for sale on gunsamerica.com that looked nice also.  Seems that any pistol that guarantees 1" groups at 25 yards is a competent performer.  I've also noticed that the de facto standard in 1911 magazines seems to be the ones from Wilson.  It doesn't seem to me that they would only be able to turn out magazines well.  For every 2 good comments, I read one negative about them.  Not having any experience with them, I can't tell which are justified and which are coming from the "Oh, nice mercedes, but everyone knows bmw's are better" types.

Ed Brown guns.  Being new to the 1911 world, I'd never heard the name.  I checked out his site, and his guns do look really nice, but unfortunately they're not certified for sale here in California.  Unless I found a use one, it's not worth considering.  I'm not interested in scouring the state for the *one* person willing to part with his, and that's because it's seen 75,000 rounds and oh yeah he also accidentally ran it over with his truck.

Les Baer.  These get the best ratio of positive to negative comments out of anything on the good side of $2500, other than Ed Brown.  Other than the rumblings mentioned here about current tolerances not meeting past standards, I haven't seen any serious complaints about them.  What is bad abut outsourced parts?  Is he the only one who buys parts from others?  I thought Wilson buys their frames from Kimber?

Kimber.  I think they have the worst ratio of positive to negative comments.  Probably close to 1:1.  I don't know why, but I don't have a good impression of them, and am not seriously considering it.  They also have too many models.  It would take forever to try to decide which one I wanted.

So, as of right now, my choices have changed a bit.  The Valtro and Les Baer TRS are the front runners.  The CQB won't get out of my mind, and I've also thought about the springfield TRP Pro if I can find it at or under $2k.

Why not just find an old GI 1911? You can find them for fairly cheap (compared to the custom jobs out there), odds are they've seen actual combat and worked when they needed to...and hey, it's history. No one will mistake it for something it's not.

*Shrug* My $0.02...

Ed

I really like the Valtro, I don't have one, yet.

I only wish it came in stainless.

Captain - I'm mulling over some of the same choices now myself. Feed back I have gathered from others that are local shooters - Baer / Wilson - either, or doesn't much matter both great.

Other route esp if you already own a Kimber - Dane Burns. He will turn your Kimber into a Custom gun for a low of $950 to a high of (sky is the limit).


www.burnscustom.com/

Whomever compared 1911's to crack - hit it on the head!

CaptainSanity

I find it ironic that you would suggest with your online moniker that you are a pillar of rational thought when your desire to purchase evil baby and cop killing weapons so obviously demonstrates the exact opposite.  

I've observed your past posts on this board about desiring to leave our great state; as the cliche goes, don't let the door hit you on the way out.  We have no need or desire for your kind here.

Hey Stokes where you get the Kimber / Wilson thing? I find nothing on CNC outsourcing from 3 different sources for parts on that. I do however get S&W CNC parts for Kimber. I also have found Wilson making parts for some of the folks you mentioned.

That would be really stupid for someone to run a company through two middlemen. Cmon ...

I too have fired many of the firearms you mention.. I am 99.9 % sure someone here has another motive..

Oh by the way if (which they don't) Kimber made the Wilson frames that would make Kimber a bunch of idiots .. my CQB shoots groups 5 times tighter than any Kimber I have seen, shot, or has been graced with a test in the gun rags. In that scenario I suppose they couldn't put together a handgun of the same caliber.. Huh?

What about a Llama? They have an excellent cost-to-weight ratio.

My understanding is that Kimber and Wilson buy their frames from the same place, not that Kimber or Wilson buy them from one another.  Hey, anything beats that (what is it Brazillian?) piece of shit that Springfield starts out with.

One hole at 35 yards is 5 times greater than 1.5" or 2.5" with a Kimber at 25 yards.

Or to help you with it about the same size as your favorite farm yard animals backdoor inlet.  Ah I just had to... You were the one that started Bigfoot Stories.

I'm not going to suggest any gun for you, the which gun is better debate always goes nowhere. I like Wilsons, and as a dealer when I decided which high end 1911 I would stock it was Wilson hands down. My personal carry gun is a Protector Compact, identical to a CQB compact except it's black and has a FLGR. If I was buying a full size it would be a CQB. They shoot great, the finish lasts and they look great. I have never had an unsatisfied Wilson customer. I suggest shooting different 1911s if you can and pick the one YOU like best. Ignore the advise, because it's totally subjective. All I will say is that Wilsons customer service is first rate. Also, any 1911 you buy will have to be Cal legal if thats where you live. FInd a Wilson, a Baer and all the others on your short list and try them out. Then you can't go wrong. Just remember the "other guys gun syndrome". You always seem to shoot better with somebody elses gun than your own. Don't know why but always seems to be the case.

Ah .. Stokes ... let's kiss and makeup... I was just giving you a jab.... I like all the 1911s (Except those made not in the US) and I was just trying to give you a hard time for your cracks on Wilson. My CQB actually does make a one hole out of 3 rounds at 35 yards and I can't imagine a better 1911. Though I know there are alot of ones equal out there.

So can you forgive a right wing gun nut with a twisted sense of humor?

Oh and I fully understand your margin statements.

Hey .. when I think about it.. maybe it was your Bill Clinton picture over your name that got me rampaging.  

Quoted: As a side note, Wilson does make a good good gun.  I believe that the reason more dealers stock Wilson than Baer or Brown is simple.  Wilson has high production output, better  marketing, and higher dealer margins.  More people know the Wilson name, so it's easier for dealers to sell.  When you add in that Wilsons margins are better it's really a good program compared to the to others.  This has nothing to do with the quality of the guns, only on how much return the dealer with have with them.  Gun stores don't sell guns because they are the best guns made, they sell them because they make money with them.

Stokes, I gotta tell you that your info here is incorrect. The suggested markup on Wilsons in 20%, as opposed to 30-35% for Glocks, S&W ect. Plus, most Wilson dealers like me tack on much less. We sell Wilson because we like em, they don't make us much. Plus, it takes months for Wilson to fill CQB orders. They sometimes have KZs, shotguns and ARs in stock, but very few 1911s. Here in Tucson, I am the only stocking Wilson dealer. None of the big stores stock them because of the low margin. They make you special order them and they tack on a bunch so most folks get em on Gunbroker or Gunsamerica. Anyway, I just wanted to clarify the margin issue. Hate to think anyone would even dream I made a living selling guns! Thank God it's only a sideline for me!

So Clinton... I mean Stokes... We friends still?

Hey... Larry you carry Wilson mags, parts, etc.?.

Quoted: So Clinton... I mean Stokes... We friends still? Hey... Larry you carry Wilson mags, parts, etc.?.

Just the guns for now. I just ordered a full size CQB in black. Delivery is probably around late November, and I'm gonna probably keep it. I sold a full size recently and decided I need one. I like my compact for carry, but I was surprised how nice the full size shot and how the extra lenghth was so easy to carry.

NADDAH.  Bill Wilson did use kimber frames when he started his business. I have video tape of him stating this fact.  He now only models his after the Kimbers, and MFG his own at this time. But HE DID USE KIMBER FRAMES FOR ALL HIS GUNS WHEN HE STARTED HIS FULL HOUSE CUSTOM GUNS!

I only have about 3,000 rnds thru my CQB. I talked with another CQB owner who has some 60,000 rnds thru his. He has stated that his accuracy went from about 1/2" to approx. 1" over the period of 60,000 rounds. Hey Larry you know if there is a discount if you want to buy 60 shok buffs at once. Also the 47D mags are fantastic... I was thinking perhaps you could go onto the Wilson Forum over at their site and or this one and do a group purchase for mags and other items... Do you think this would fly?

I knew back in the day he was a pistolsmith "fixing" issues with Colts and others ... but okay... thanks Joe.

Anybody out there have any additional info on the Kimber?  I have used a buddy's CQB for a couple of months and found it to be very accurate.  I did notice that the Armor-Tuff finish was chipping off a bit.  I am assuming that this is a rarity based on how other have praised the finish.  

I have also used another friends Springfield TRP Operator.  That firearm has extrodinarily tight tolerances and is every bit as accurate as the Wilson CQB.

I shot a Dawson Precision Tactical Advantage.  Another amazingly accurate gun.

Then I had an afternoon with a Kimber Gold Combat II.  This gun shot very accurate groups, similar to the aforementioned 1911s.  

Wilson CQB, w/ light rail & speed-chute: $2085.00
TRP Operator, light rail & magwell: $1475.00
Dawson Precision Tac Adv, light rail, magwell, optioned out: $2405.00
Kimber Gold Combat II, no rail, magwell:  $1675.00

I cannot get the TRP, because my very best friend owns one and that would be copying. he
The CQB w/ rail is a great choice, but...I can get the Kimber for $1255.00, have GG&G put a light rail & Teflon S finish on it for another $325.00  .  That means $1580.00 for a .45 with all the custom stuff you want for $500 less than a CQB(which nobody here will cut a deal on)

My shooting skills are more focused on tactical drills such as room clearing, low light, transitions, etc..  Not IDPA or IPSC competition levels, so any sub 1" @ 25yrd capable pistol is good enough for my skill level.

Any comments?


-Fuji

Kimber bought Jericho, so now Wilson gets his slides and frames from Kimber.  Wilson makes very few (if any) of his own parts, instead paying vendors to do it for him, then putting his name on them along with a nice markup.  Many companies do this, it's just business.  Many of Wilson's products, like his barrels, are outstanding, but Bill don't make 'em.

As far as Wilson now actually making his own slides and frames, I don't believe it.  At the very most he buys almost-finished pieces and machines his own slide and frame rails (thus becoming the 'manufacturer'), but I seriously doubt he even does that much.  It would be cost prohibitive and foolish, given the quality parts already being manufactured by folks who already have the machinery.

The reason your CQB can outshoot most Kimbers is that the CQB has a better, more precisely fit barrel.  As it should, costing on the average twice as much (higher-end Kimbers excepted, of course).  Slide to frame fit has very little to do with accuracy.

Wilson makes nice guns, they're just not worth what he wants for them.  Basically they're Kimbers with varying degrees of hand work and some higher-quality parts on the inside.  For the money I'd go with Ed Brown- if you look around you can probably find a good used one close to your price range.

Okay, Ed Brown's name keeps showing up over and over again as "the best" in the not-quite-truly-custom-quality category.

His site lists an all stainless Kobra for $2k.  That's doable, but just barely.  

The problem is that I'm a subject of the PRK, and can't buy one of these new.  I'm not opposed to getting a used one with low mileage, but where would I find one here in my state?

Gunbroker.com has one Kobra, and it's in Florida, so I can't have it transferred here.  I found a few on gunsamerica.com, but they're all from dealers who are obviously out of state.

Any CA residents reading this forum know where I could find one?  Know a shop that has one used?  Know someone who wants to sell theirs?

 Captain I looked all over the web came up with nothing in CA. I am not shure exactly what the whole CA leagal thing is all about other than a series of testing. From what I have gathered the 1911 style guns that are CA leagal have a series 80 type disconnector safety gizmo. Question is this why would you want a top end 1911 with a shitty trigger? ED Brown is the way to go. I believe his guns certainly qualify as "custom" given that you are the one who orders it. The gun will be made to your specifications...1ts a 1911 you only really have three choices Govt,Comm and Officer's. The rest is just bell's and whistles based on user preference. Just because new guns from ED Brown,Wilson and LBC are on dealer shelves does not mean they were not custon. Dealers who stock these pistols usally order the guns as described in the catalog. All three offer different options that must be requested when ordering for no or little additional charge. Examples are trigger length, sights, LPI of the checkering, front cocking serrations, yada,yada,yada. I have shot plenty of 1911's in various combinations. I have shot a varity of guns from various Manufacturers and gunsmiths. All in all Mr. Brownings design was exepmt from MAJOR flaws. If there were no refinements to be made then there would be no reason for 1911 smiths to exist. Thus far I have yet to fire a 1911 that was in safe working order that could not perform in the its intended role. Worst case I have seen so far is 12" group of 8rnds at 25' all things considered no its not a head shot but it is still 8rnds of 45ACP to the chest.
Where am I going with this rant? $1500-2k for a gun is a shit load of cash for most of us ,me at least. I know you are in PRK but do you have family or freinds in other states that can order a ED Brown to your request and sell it to you as a private party X-fer? I have bought custom 1911's made for others and overall they started as good deals but the $500 I save off the new retail cost was later reinvested into parts and services to get the guns the way I wanted them. I have thus learned to resist the temptation and start from ground up. Even if the gun is $500 less than SRP with 150 rnds through it it is a custom gun not made for you. I hope you know what you do and dont like and can find one at a good price. If not than hold off and figure out a way to get one in Kali. My first 1911 was a SA "loaded" Govt. $550 NIB. Well i liked the look and durability of the moly type coatings($150). I also wanted a crisp 3.5lb trigger long length ($75+$20=95). SA uses carbon steel barrels with a cut out in the hood to show if the chamber was loaded...that had to go...SS Kart NM barrel and bushing($120+30=150). SA also features a safty lock in the cast MS housing that locks with cute little keys...that as well had to go ($40). Frontstrap checkering,frame to slide fit,Novak tritium,yada, yada, ya. All total $1150 gun+parts and service. Did I get a bad ass gun yes would I do that again NO. I would have looked for a used gun in good shape and had a "Package" done on it. Most custom smiths have "pakages" offered for a set price that include all parts and labor of the most requested 1911 mod's and enhancements...even Wilson, Brown and LBC will do this on a customer suplied gun.
To me the attention to detail that goes into a custom 1911 is what demmands the price asked. If accuracy and reliability is your only concern, then you can make most 1911's do that for not a lot $$$. If you want an object that shows crftsman ship and elegance the go as all out as your budget permits. The first thing I always look at is the beaver tail safety. I depress it and look at how well it is blended to the frame IMHO there should be only a faint hairline between the two peices other than that it should look as if it were one chunk of steel. Second is trigger, 3.5 for carry smooth take up, no creep with just enough take up to be safe for carry and properly adjusted overtravel.
I will keep looking for an ED Brown on the IPSC and IDPA sites and let you know if I find one.

DC1

Well, after thinking about it some, and not finding anything close to what I wanted at the SAn JOse gun show this weekend, I decided to get a springfield milspec operator.

The reasons for that are such:

1.) Easy to find.  Valtros are on waiting lists everywhere I hear.  Don't want to order a damn TRS and wait months, nor did I really want to deal wtih finding one on gunsamerica.com or something and have it shipped

2.) LIght rail.  I wanted my next pistol to have a lightrail for easy mounting of a light for quicker response because this is to be my things that go bump in the dark gun.  Right now I keep a surefire M2 right next to my sig 229, but it would be bother easier and quicker to grab a gun that already has the light attached.  

3.) The fun of learning about it and getting it customized to my tastes.  I know that I'm going to want to get this thing worked on. Should be interesting and rewarding when it's done.  I also thought that this way I could get it worked on by a gunsmith such as Ed Brown or others whose production guns aren't certified for sale here in the PRK.  


Thanks for the help and comments everyone.