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Posted: 7/24/2002 10:52:30 AM EDT
A guy I work with was in the Army in Vietnam. He was telling us that some things our military in combat was that they would get cases of 7.62X39 ammo which came from some communist nation (Soviets, Chinese etc...) The ammo was then brought into one of our military bases, which my buddy believed it may have been from Fort Irwin in CA.

What he said the U.S. military "propellar heads" would take these 7.62x39 rounds, open them up and remove the gun powder. They would replace the powder with some type of explosive. He wasn't sure if it was like C4 or deta sheet (spell?) or whatever. Then the Army would seat the bullets back into the cases, and close up the wooden ammo cases. Then the ammo cases would go to special American military units in Vietnam where they would then be secretly placed in selected areas of enemy camps etc...

The enemy wouldn't know what happened when they'd open up boxes of the 7.62x39mm ammo and used it in their weapons. KA-BOOOMMMM!!!! The guns would be destroyed and some of the gooks would be severely injured, if not out of the fight all together.

I laughed so hard when I heard that story. Pretty neat eh???
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 1:00:28 PM EDT
Operation Eldest Son....
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 1:02:52 PM EDT
Viet Nam urban legend, never happened...
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 1:03:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/24/2002 1:31:44 PM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 1:12:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/24/2002 1:17:14 PM EDT by mr_camera_man]
ahem... isn't C4 electrically detonated? I don't think a rifle primer would be enough to touch it off.

I've heard debate on this issue before, and I seem to recall that the 7.62x39 cases were filled to capacity with Bullseye or some other fast pistol powder, and then the spiked ammo was returned to enemy supply lines.

EDIT: I think this has come up on rec.guns a couple of times, but don't have a chance to research it right now...
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 1:18:33 PM EDT
If i recall correctly, it was PETN.
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 1:20:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tuukka:
If i recall correctly, it was PETN.



That's what I heard as well.
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 1:21:21 PM EDT
My training is 13 years old now BUT… C4 needs heat, spark, and compression to explode. It can detonated by an electronic or traditional (fuse type) blasting cap. In the case of an electrical blasting cap, it’s the cap exploding that detonates the C4, not the electricity. I sure as hell would not fire a round packed with C4. The booby trap seams plausible too me. I’d like to meet the Combat Engineer who came up with that idea! As Combat Engineers know; booby traps are only limited by the imagination.
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 1:25:41 PM EDT
I think it would launch the bolt out of the top of the AK into the eye socket of the gook holding it.
Ow.
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 1:27:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CactusJack:
Viet Nam urban legend, never happened...


You cant prove a negative.
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 1:36:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Valkyre:

Originally Posted By CactusJack:
Viet Nam urban legend, never happened...


You cant prove a negative.


===============================================

vry true !!!

but i doubt if any one can prove it's true either, i have heard this story for over 30 years & talked to many vets & none of them ever participated in the actual sabotage, did any one here have a hand in it ??

Link Posted: 7/24/2002 1:40:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CactusJack:
but i doubt if any one can prove it's true either, i have heard this story for over 30 years & talked to many vets & none of them ever participated in the actual sabotage, did any one here have a hand in it ??




i could say i did
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 1:55:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CactusJack: "but i doubt if any one can prove it's true either, i have heard this story for over 30 years & talked to many vets & none of them ever participated in the actual sabotage, did any one here have a hand in it ??"

I seem to recall the EXACT same story Re Iraqi weapons & ammo during the Gulf War. I wouldn't be suprised if the same story made the rounds during Korea,WW2 or even WW1..."don't use any captured German guns or ammo, I heard the OSS booby trapped a bunch of rounds with HE just to lower morale among the Nazi's..." If they could sneak boobytrapped ammo into an enemy camp just to play mind games & destroy the guns they'd could have just as easily snuck in satchel charges or called in a precise artillery strike & killed many times more. Why firk about causing mischief with explosive ammo? More likely the story was propaganda to keep GI's from picking up & using enemy weapons (which wouldn't get turned back in like issued weapons).
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 1:58:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/24/2002 2:01:23 PM EDT by EOD_Guy]
There were many different type of boobytrapped equipment and munitions that were made by the US to be placed in NVA and VC supply areas. They included rifles and magazines which detonated when the top round was stripped, binoculars that detonated when you tried to focus them, grenades with no delay, cameras that detonated when you snapped the shutter or opened the back, and small arms ammuntion that was explosive filled. Various fillers were tried, including mercury fulminate and lead azide.
These items were not supposed to be used in any American operational areas, but were to be planted in enemy areas by SEALS, Special Forces, CIA operatives, etc.

I got involved when someone fouled up and starting planting items in friendly operational areas. I helped write the EOD manuals on the items and we wrote and distributed the manuals on an emergency basis in order to get the pubs into the field as soon as possible.
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 2:15:02 PM EDT
EOD_Guy,

very interesting !!!!! what more can you tell us about these "dirty tricks"...?
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 3:27:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RiffRandall:
Originally Posted By CactusJack: "but i doubt if any one can prove it's true either, i have heard this story for over 30 years & talked to many vets & none of them ever participated in the actual sabotage, did any one here have a hand in it ??"

I seem to recall the EXACT same story Re Iraqi weapons & ammo during the Gulf War. I wouldn't be suprised if the same story made the rounds during Korea,WW2 or even WW1..."don't use any captured German guns or ammo, I heard the OSS booby trapped a bunch of rounds with HE just to lower morale among the Nazi's..." If they could sneak boobytrapped ammo into an enemy camp just to play mind games & destroy the guns they'd could have just as easily snuck in satchel charges or called in a precise artillery strike & killed many times more. Why firk about causing mischief with explosive ammo? More likely the story was propaganda to keep GI's from picking up & using enemy weapons (which wouldn't get turned back in like issued weapons).



My favorite ("true") story is about the barge that washes up on the coast of France in the latter years of WWII after a storm.

The barge is filled with precision milled ball bearings. By this time the Nazi's are really low on bearings, because of a very effective bearing bombing campaign by the B17s.

They suck these things right into the system and manufacture a good deal of material using them.

Surprise, no moving part packed with these bearings lasts more than 60 days. (They were all intentionally imbalanced).

Wonderful sabotage operation by the OSS. Funny. No one thought to ask why the British were making bearings in metric units back then. Need has a great way of blinding common sense.
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 3:45:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/24/2002 3:46:42 PM EDT by Valkyre]
I heard that guys would have an AK mag (with the explosive round in the top, just one, and then some regular) somewhere in a pouch or something and if they got chased they would drop that pack as a diversion. If the gooks stopped to check out the pack, the good guys gained some ground. The gook who got the mag shoots at good guys, reloads using the mag he found in the pack, and gets the bolt carrier stuck in his eye socket.
Doom on him.


(edited to add all in parenthesis)
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 3:53:45 PM EDT
used to work with an ex green beret, two Nam tours,wrote several manuals for the army,mans name is ( hope he don't mind)Bill McClure,lots of very interesting stories,one was finding VC ammo dumps,getting some of the ammo,pull the bullet,dump the powder than push the case thru a cake of C-4,bullet back in ,return all to normal and move on. jwr
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 5:55:49 PM EDT
Heard told that c4 wasn't used but it was grenade powder.

Link Posted: 7/24/2002 7:11:01 PM EDT
CactusJack,

I can't tell you a hell of a lot about the stuff. It was used after I left Vietnam and I never encountered any of it in the field. The only items I actually handled were AK47 magazines, the binoculars and some M18 Claymores with anti-disturbance circuits. There were marks on the items that identified them as being booby trapped. I can't remember exactly what they were but I couldn't say any how since it was classified.
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 7:25:14 PM EDT
Don't know if it is true but good idea. GI "drops a grenade with a smoke grenade fuse instead of standard fuse. VC picks up grenade, pulls pin, throws, boom.
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 8:00:40 PM EDT
EOD_Guy,

aaaaahh the ol classified material, i know what you mean, when i went thru the "dirty deeds & nasty tricks" training i was exposed to a lot of thyngs.., which i really can not recall the details on, but i do not ever recall the ammo sabotage trick unless it was a local thyng, i knew about the grenade trick, mortar rounds were also made instant KaBlooey !!
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 8:11:38 PM EDT
LRRP soldiers who carried sterile AK's would only load from fresh cases of ammo shipped into base camp to avoid sabotaged ammo discovered in the field.
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 9:11:18 PM EDT
I can tell you for a fact that the South African Defence Force and Police did that. If they found a stash of weapons and ammo, or land and limpet mines, these would be booby trapped to the hilt. Mines were rigged to explode immediately instead of on a time delay or when picked up, ammo would be loaded with some explosive charge, rifles would have their firing pins shortened or bores obstructed. The Rhodesians had a lot of dirty tricks up their sleeves as well, they would coat denim jeans with some form of contact poison, and leave them in remote little stores likely to be broken into by terrorist gangs.
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 10:33:25 PM EDT
I don't see how breaking guns is "funny".
Link Posted: 7/24/2002 10:51:06 PM EDT
I've heard funnier... This one may be a legend too, but I don't know...

This involves the Russians trying to hire a Japanese company to build a computer-control system for one of their later series fighters (since Russia was never really good at high-tech aircraft controls, although they did make some very impressive planes despite the control systems).

According to the story, the CIA convinced them to take the contract, but had them hard-wire an RF-activated 'off switch' into the computer so we could 'turn off' the computer at will (thus destroying the plane)...

Russia bit, and built a whole bunch of fighters before they found out. Of course, a few of those had been exported, but the rest were fixed...

And a few years later, in DS, an EF111 Raven gets a 'maneuver kill' (read 'he flew the Iraqi into the ground) vs a MiG 29... Interesting...

Link Posted: 7/24/2002 11:09:00 PM EDT
thats like the story of the SR-71. we needed titanium to build it and at the time russia was about the only major source of it. so the CIA set up a dummy corporation to buy titanium on the european market. next thing you know we're taking pictures of Ivan using his own raw materiels against him! classic
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 5:20:54 AM EDT
Got to agree with Cactus Jack on this one.
Furthermore, all the people I know of who claim to have been involved in such clandestine operations proved to be phonies.
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 5:30:42 PM EDT
Bermshot and Cactus Jack,

It doesn't really matter that much to me if you think I'm a phoney. I know what I did and I know what I saw. The publication I helped write was a TM 60 series joint service EOD publication that was written at the Naval EOD Facility at Indian Head, Maryland, in 1970. My reference to classified information may seem like a cop out but it is a real concern. All publications containing EOD render safe procedures are classified. As I stated, I can't remember the marks on the actual items. The classification is irrelevent.

Sorry I took so long to answer. I was at a ball game. (Damned Giants lost!)
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 5:43:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By EOD_Guy:
Bermshot and Cactus Jack,

It doesn't really matter that much to me if you think I'm a phoney. I know what I did and I know what I saw. The publication I helped write was a TM 60 series joint service EOD publication that was written at the Naval EOD Facility at Indian Head, Maryland, in 1970. My reference to classified information may seem like a cop out but it is a real concern. All publications containing EOD render safe procedures are classified. As I stated, I can't remember the marks on the actual items. The classification is irrelevent.

Sorry I took so long to answer. I was at a ball game. (Damned Giants lost!)



I work with several former EOD guys, you sound legit to me. After woking with these guys I determined that I would never sleep with an EOD guys wife or daughter. They just have too many ways to get even.
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 6:04:50 PM EDT
Along these lines is why the 346 tail fuze was developed.
The VC would use any of our un-exploded ordnance against us. Our bomb fuzes at that time were not extremely reliable. So after a bombing run there would always be a few dud weapons. The VC would go out, remove the fuze, cut the casing and use the explosive filler for satchel charges or mines. So, the basement boys built a fuze that could not be removed easily and contained a clock which could be set to explode the weapon after a predetermined time. A few bombs with these fuzes would be loaded and dropped during a run. Thinking that they had found a gold mine, Mr/Mrs VC would set about trying to remove the fuze and then they would get a big suprise as it went off. Broke them from sucking eggs!
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 6:15:40 PM EDT
EKrutz64,

Fuzes along that line have been around for a long time. Chemical long delay booby trap fuzes were developed in WWII, using acetone to dissolve a plastic washer holding a striker. The Germans also had clockwork delay fuzes with booby trap adapters (The ZUS 40). The ones today with electronic circuits are a lot more sophisticated.

JIMBEAM,

Thanks for the support. However, the smoke grenade fuze would not work in an HE grenade. The smoke grenade fuze has an ignitor, not a detonator.
Link Posted: 7/25/2002 6:23:11 PM EDT
Yes I am aware of that fact. But this fuze was developed for this reason only. Let me rephrase that, use by the Navy was for that reason only. By the way EOD, you get to do your job if I do mine wrong. IYAOYAS
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