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Posted: 7/23/2002 12:11:35 PM EDT
Why wont someone make (well I haven't found anyone yet making such a thing) an AR15 type rifle like the 2nd generation SPR (The first one was in 5.56 and the second will be in 6.5 supposedly) with an 18 or 20 inch barrel as a sort of DMR (Designated Marksman Rifle). This is not a true sniper but rather a weapon to give a normal unit a long range weapon where 5.56mm rifles wouldn't be enough. Lets see: the 6mm is a .243 and the 6.5mm is a .270? And then the 6.8mm would be what? A .280? Anyway Armalite seems to have discontinued their .243 AR-10. One more imp thing for sucha rifle would be 10, 15, and 20 rd mags. 10 for Cali, 15 for Nj, and 20 for everyone else. Also: I would prefer a lighter rifle about 8 lb or maybe up to 8.5 lb. This would be great.

BTW: How did the SPR handle Afghanistan? I heard that it waws ok but that the 5.56mm was still ineffective at long ranges despite the 18 inch barrel. Why not use a heavy barreled M16A2 then?

Doggonit (The SIGer)
Link Posted: 7/23/2002 1:20:36 PM EDT
I'd love to have an SPR in 5.56.These things are trick.I'm trying to find more info on them.I have a special weapons mag that talks alittle about them.Says they're about 12#s.The ones I saw had a 18" barrel with about a 6" supressor on the end.The article mentioned that they were making pinpoint hits out to 600 yards.how effective they were I don't know.Think they're using a 77 grain match bullet.

I would dearly love to build one of these rifles,but its gonna take some time to save the cash.Every part on these rifles is primo,high dollar,high quality stuff.

I'd also like to know more about them if any one else has some info.
Link Posted: 7/23/2002 3:30:46 PM EDT
I was wondering how long it was going to take for people to start talking about these. I have the fall 2002 issue of "Special Weapons for Military & Police" which had a decent write up on it with a nice list of parts used. I am going to pick up a stainless bushmaster with A3 upper to start my project SPR. I'm building the rifle to fill the 0-600 yard ranges. I have bolt sticks for the farther distances.
Link Posted: 7/23/2002 3:37:30 PM EDT
I forgot to mention that in my Soldier of Fortune mag I saw an add for uppers chambered in 300wsm and a couple other calibers. I will look it up when I get home.

Scott


Link Posted: 7/23/2002 3:39:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/23/2002 3:39:34 PM EDT
I now both of you would like to start your own SPR projects but the key fact is that the 5.56 is no good for 600 yards or even 500 or 400. Even in a 20 inch vaminter it could be better. Therefore we need a .243 or a .270 or the yet unrealeased 6.8mm which will probably take at least 10 years to be de-militarized.

What's up with this wird SOCOM AR15 in .458 SOCOM or something? Yeah right, like SpecOps is going to use that heavy POS. Ridiculous firing a huge bullet from a tiny rifle.

Doggonit
Link Posted: 7/23/2002 4:31:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/23/2002 4:41:20 PM EDT by schapman43]

Originally Posted By Doggonit:
I now both of you would like to start your own SPR projects but the key fact is that the 5.56 is no good for 600 yards or even 500 or 400. Even in a 20 inch vaminter it could be better. Therefore we need a .243 or a .270 or the yet unrealeased 6.8mm which will probably take at least 10 years to be de-militarized.

What's up with this wird SOCOM AR15 in .458 SOCOM or something? Yeah right, like SpecOps is going to use that heavy POS. Ridiculous firing a huge bullet from a tiny rifle.

Doggonit



Where is your proof that the .223 round is no good out to 400 yards? Have you shot something at this distance and had it not work. Where are the reports that say the .223 is ineffective in Afghanistan?

My question is this. If you are worried about the .223 why not get an Armalite AR-10 in .308? Its a tried and proven round in a reliable rifle.

Armalite still shows the .243 as being still available on their online catalog.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 4:25:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Doggonit:
I now both of you would like to start your own SPR projects but the key fact is that the 5.56 is no good for 600 yards or even 500 or 400.

Doggonit



I was at Camp Perry Ohio yesterday and there are a whole lot of people there that can make you eat those words from the 1000yd line, including the Army's AMU, the guys who built the SPR.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 7:44:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By schapman43:
Where is your proof that the .223 round is no good out to 400 yards?



Q. At what range will M193 fragment? How about M855?

Beyond it's fragmentation range, the 5.56 isn't all that useful, IMO. It's not something I would want to be shot by, but it's the fragmentation that makes it such a dangerous round.

There are new designs of bullets being designed right now that should make the 5.56 effective at longer ranges than currently offered. Until that time, I will stick with my HK91 for any targets beyond 150m or so.
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 8:08:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By davkenrem:

Originally Posted By Doggonit:
I now both of you would like to start your own SPR projects but the key fact is that the 5.56 is no good for 600 yards or even 500 or 400.

Doggonit



I was at Camp Perry Ohio yesterday and there are a whole lot of people there that can make you eat those words from the 1000yd line, including the Army's AMU, the guys who built the SPR.




It can make a hole in paper at 1000yrds, but can it take a man down?
Link Posted: 7/28/2002 8:09:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/28/2002 8:10:44 AM EDT by Doggonit]

Originally Posted By sesat_ram:

Originally Posted By davkenrem:

Originally Posted By Doggonit:
I now both of you would like to start your own SPR projects but the key fact is that the 5.56 is no good for 600 yards or even 500 or 400.

Doggonit



I was at Camp Perry Ohio yesterday and there are a whole lot of people there that can make you eat those words from the 1000yd line, including the Army's AMU, the guys who built the SPR.




It can make a hole in paper at 1000yrds, but can it take a man down?



My point sir. All these people who claim it can shoot 1000 yards forget what Brouhaha and you just said.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 5:20:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/29/2002 5:21:33 PM EDT by davkenrem]
Would you like to stand on the 1000 yard line and see how well it works? You could report back with some empirical data on the effectiveness and terminal ballistics of an 80gr HPBT. Allot of those shooters at Camp Perry can hit a head sized target all day long.
Should be interesting.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 6:20:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Doggonit:
Why wont someone make (well I haven't found anyone yet making such a thing) an AR15 type rifle like the 2nd generation SPR (The first one was in 5.56 and the second will be in 6.5 supposedly) with an 18 or 20 inch barrel as a sort of DMR (Designated Marksman Rifle). This is not a true sniper but rather a weapon to give a normal unit a long range weapon where 5.56mm rifles wouldn't be enough. Lets see: the 6mm is a .243 and the 6.5mm is a .270? And then the 6.8mm would be what? A .280? Anyway Armalite seems to have discontinued their .243 AR-10. One more imp thing for sucha rifle would be 10, 15, and 20 rd mags. 10 for Cali, 15 for Nj, and 20 for everyone else. Also: I would prefer a lighter rifle about 8 lb or maybe up to 8.5 lb. This would be great.

BTW: How did the SPR handle Afghanistan? I heard that it waws ok but that the 5.56mm was still ineffective at long ranges despite the 18 inch barrel. Why not use a heavy barreled M16A2 then?

Doggonit (The SIGer)



There are a couple of guys who convert AR10's to 6.5-08 and 7-08. Call Armalite and they'll put you onto them.

Armalite keeps promising an AR10 chambered for .300 Rem SAUM. I REALLY WANT one of those.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 6:33:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/29/2002 6:34:06 PM EDT by tatjana]

Originally Posted By schapman43:

Originally Posted By Doggonit:
I now both of you would like to start your own SPR projects but the key fact is that the 5.56 is no good for 600 yards or even 500 or 400. Even in a 20 inch vaminter it could be better. Therefore we need a .243 or a .270 or the yet unrealeased 6.8mm which will probably take at least 10 years to be de-militarized.

What's up with this wird SOCOM AR15 in .458 SOCOM or something? Yeah right, like SpecOps is going to use that heavy POS. Ridiculous firing a huge bullet from a tiny rifle.

Doggonit



Where is your proof that the .223 round is no good out to 400 yards? Have you shot something at this distance and had it not work. Where are the reports that say the .223 is ineffective in Afghanistan?



You should probably read: www.ammo-oracle.com
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 7:09:11 PM EDT
Anyone who believes the 5.56 is ineffective once the projectile is outside its fragmentation envelope is living in lala land. Same thing goes for anyone who believes the drivel Major whats his nuts USMC (Ret) said about the rounds sticking in the targets at 500 yds. Let me assure you, every round that flew over my head at that distance was still supersonic and had no trouble fully penetrating 6-8 inches of seasoned pine on the target frame. I am not saying the 5.56 NATO is equal to, or better then, a 7.62 NATO. It is not! But the 5.56 will get the job done against flack jackets, helmets, and the flesh in between at 600m. Out to that distance at least, a round that lands in the diamond, (navel, nipples, throat), or cranium, will deliver the desired effect. If you seriously think you would just shrug off a 5.56 that hits large bone, major organs, or major arteries at 1000 yds, then you need a severe reality check. If it is just an "ice pick" wound that can be handled by two band aids, why not show us all just how tough you are by running that ice pick through your inner thigh / bicep, or chest, apply your band aids, and then sprint 1000 yds with 35 lbs of gear strapped to your body.

Having said all that, I would prefer a 6-6.5mm 100-120 grain projectile at a muzzle velocity of 2600-2800 fps since targets generally seek cover, and if they are lined up just right you could get 3 or 4 with one round.

Link Posted: 7/29/2002 9:31:09 PM EDT
There is not going to be a new cartridge in the US Army.

A new bullet for the 5.56, probably, but not a new chambering.

Whoever told you otherwise doggonit is on crack.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 9:46:46 PM EDT
Just a reminder on effective ranges, it seems most of what I've read refers to military rounds, which by international law are FMJ. I'd like to test some 55 gr Nosler ballistic tips at longer, say 600 - 800 yd, ranges and see how they do. Ballistic tips have a reputation for violently fragmenting when they hit. I just think it would be interesting to see how well they fragment a good ways out.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 9:41:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2002 9:43:01 AM EDT by sesat_ram]

Originally Posted By davkenrem:
Would you like to stand on the 1000 yard line and see how well it works? You could report back with some empirical data on the effectiveness and terminal ballistics of an 80gr HPBT. Allot of those shooters at Camp Perry can hit a head sized target all day long.
Should be interesting.hr


This "would you like to stand on the 1000yrd line and see how well it works" line is the childish sorta thing I see here off an on. Look, we both don't trust a 22LR to take someone down (other than a headshot), but I sure doubt you'd volunteer to let me shoot one at your crotch.

I'd grant the best of the best at Perry perhaps could get that eighty grainer into my head at 1000yrds, but these are the best of the best, and thats a nonmoving target at fixed distances.

Factor in the need for less skilled people to Do The Deed, targets in mountains that move and need to be ranged each time, and I end up asking myself... why the hell bother trying to get an AR-15 to do what it isn't designed to do?

Considering the cost of the fancy rifle the Perry guys use, the talent and training the Perry guys have, and these long bullets that may not fit in the magazine... well geez, you might as well hand a crappy shooter like me a simple Remington 700 and simple 308 SMK's for simple torso shots at 1k.


Damn, I love my AR-15 as much as the next guy, and I think the AR-15 weapon family is just swell; but call me old fashioned for wanting to use the right tool for the job!

I can understand the desire to keep things light and simple, but is it to much to expect a small squad to carry M4's (albeit I'd prefer 16"bbls) with one or two guys having a M24 slung over their shoulder?
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 11:11:14 AM EDT
sesat_ram,

Try this website,Soldiers For The Truth www.sftt.org You will find comments on this topic there. Also try this link,

http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:cgFHJUKEvrYC:www.squad-leader.com/LessonsLearnedinAfghanistan21.ppt+lessons+learned+in+afghanistan&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Details reports on lessons learned in Afghanistan.

From the report:
(Speaking of the M4 carbine)

89% reported confidence in the weapon.

Soldiers asked for a weapon with a larger round, “So it will drop a man with one shot.”

hope that helps
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 2:19:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sesat_ram:

I'd grant the best of the best at Perry perhaps could get that eighty grainer into my head at 1000yrds, but these are the best of the best, and thats a nonmoving target at fixed distances.

Factor in the need for less skilled people to Do The Deed, targets in mountains that move and need to be ranged each time, and I end up asking myself... why the hell bother trying to get an AR-15 to do what it isn't designed to do?

Considering the cost of the fancy rifle the Perry guys use, the talent and training the Perry guys have, and these long bullets that may not fit in the magazine... well geez, you might as well hand a crappy shooter like me a simple Remington 700 and simple 308 SMK's for simple torso shots at 1k.


quote]



1st off, the shooters at Perry are the best of the best, but the troops being issued SPR are also. These rifles are not going to line troops but only SOCOM personel. Secondly, SPR is not designed to take 1000yrd shots. It will definatly loft a bullet that far. But realistically, SPR is most probably being used as an intermediate range sharpshooting weapon. The guys issued these weapons have access to any sniper weapon they want. SPR and .223cal is not what one would want shooting humaniod targets at ranges greater than 600yds. But at 600yds and in, I'm sure it is deadly. Any military sniper could send an 80gr. bullet ring a steel plate all day long at 1000yds with a SPR, but they probably arent shoot enemy troops at those ranges. The M24s stated effective range is only 875 yards!
The point I was making in the first post is that 1000yrd kills are not immposible with an SPR-type rifle.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 7:33:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2002 7:38:19 PM EDT by DPeacher]

Originally Posted By sesat_ram:




I'd grant the best of the best at Perry perhaps could get that eighty grainer into my head at 1000yrds, but these are the best of the best, and thats a nonmoving target at fixed distances.


Those folks are the best. And it is still a difficult task for them to perform even under such sterile conditions.


Factor in the need for less skilled people to Do The Deed, targets in mountains that move and need to be ranged each time, and I end up asking myself... why the hell bother trying to get an AR-15 to do what it isn't designed to do?


Keeping in mind the difficulties the top shooters have on a KD course, just exactley how would arming a less skilled person with a round that produces several degrees more recoil aid in their ability to achieve centered hits under the conditions described above?


Considering the cost of the fancy rifle the Perry guys use, the talent and training the Perry guys have, and these long bullets that may not fit in the magazine... well geez, you might as well hand a crappy shooter like me a simple Remington 700 and simple 308 SMK's for simple torso shots at 1k.


How is a "crappy" shooter supposed to make a "simple" torso shot at 1k in the field with a "simple" Rem 700 and "simple" 308 SMK's if the best in the business armed with all the bells and whistles are challenged on a "simple" KD course?


Here is what it all boils down to. A gifted and experienced rifleman armed with a reliable and accurate (.5 MOA) rifle/ammo combo will achieve the same kills to rounds fired ratio regardless of whether the chambering is 7.62 NATO or 5.56 NATO.

It does not matter what caliber round a "crappy" shooter goes to the field with because a miss, is a miss, is a miss.

A hit in the diamond formed by the navel, nipples, and throat, OR a hit in the cranium, OR the severing of any major arteries, OR the penetration of any major organ, by either of the rounds in this discussion will achieve the same results, at least out to the "Holy distance of 1000 yards".
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 8:21:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DPeacher:

How is a "crappy" shooter supposed to make a "simple" torso shot at 1k in the field with a "simple" Rem 700 and "simple" 308 SMK's if the best in the business armed with all the bells and whistles are challenged on a "simple" KD course?





Would you be able to hit tin cans at 100yrds better with a plinkin' grade AR-15 beater, or a totally tricked-out custom-made fully-loaded match-grade 1911?

See where I'm going here?

I'd bet there a whole bunch of good shooters who'll hit the tin cans every time with their 1911's, but do you see my perspective why it may be wiser to arm people with something more idiot-proof when battling tin cans?
Link Posted: 8/2/2002 1:53:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sesat_ram:

Originally Posted By DPeacher:

How is a "crappy" shooter supposed to make a "simple" torso shot at 1k in the field with a "simple" Rem 700 and "simple" 308 SMK's if the best in the business armed with all the bells and whistles are challenged on a "simple" KD course?





Would you be able to hit tin cans at 100yrds better with a plinkin' grade AR-15 beater, or a totally tricked-out custom-made fully-loaded match-grade 1911?

See where I'm going here?

I'd bet there a whole bunch of good shooters who'll hit the tin cans every time with their 1911's, but do you see my perspective why it may be wiser to arm people with something more idiot-proof when battling tin cans?



No, I don't see where you are going, and I have my doubts if you even know where you are going.

I was issued my first M16A1 in 1984 at MCRD San Diego. My heart sank as the armorer passed what appeared to be an abused wreck through the opening in the chainlink fence. Upon further inspection I discovered the rifle had been taken apart and put back together, slammed on the deck, and beaten so badly by hundreds of recruits that the upper and lower receivers had enough slop to allow the muzzle 1/4" play in any direction. The rifling in the bore was almost non existant and there was a large nick in the top of the front sight post. I just knew that rifle would never be able to hit the broad side of a barn at 50 feet.

At the 25m LFT range, from the prone position, I fired three 3 rnd groups. Each group could be covered with a dime. At the KD range, from the 200m line my first 3 rounds were covered by a single 3 inch spotter.

For tin cans at 100yds, I'll take a beat up POS AR15 beater over your tricked out 1911 any day.
Link Posted: 8/2/2002 2:31:28 PM EDT
Seat-ram

I'm also having trouble seeing were your argument is going.

As stated before these weapons are not being issued to just any troops but the most skilled,that I'm sure relise the limitations of their weapon.

Second,this is not just any semiauto chambered for 5.56,or a well used M4.Its specially built, longrange, sniper type weapon,built with the best parts money can buy.

So you see, they aren't just taking a rifle and cartridge and asking it to do the impossible.They are using a custom built rifle,built for the purposes they're using it for.

Plus they use heavy match ammo for the job.

In effect,I guess you could say they are maximizing the effectiveness of the cartridge.
Link Posted: 8/2/2002 4:37:07 PM EDT

I can understand the desire to keep things light and simple, but is it to much to expect a small squad to carry M4's (albeit I'd prefer 16"bbls) with one or two guys having a M24 slung over their shoulder?


Yes it is too much!

They are already carrying too much shit as it is. That is why no one in the line units has given up their M4, they wont go to anything heavier as long as they are also being asked to hump mortar rounds, AT launchers, and GMPG belts or be pack mules for the M2's and Mk19's-which no commander will give up, they are worth their weight in gold.

Until they solve the transport shortage at company and lower levels, and stop requiring troops to hump 120+ pounds a piece-more than half of which is NOT the soldiers personal gear, but belongs to heavy support weapons that they also cannot do without.

The only units that have the luxury to carry special purpose rifles are special operators, who can expect to be flown back to base after a short time to change gear for the next mission, and the Mech infantry, who have vheicles to carry them- and who don't really need longer, heavier personal weapons anyways as their vheicles have more than enough long range firepower.

The Army is not going to play around with boutique cartriges. They will probably change the cartridge fired by the M4 and M16 to one with a heavier bullet, check the ammo FAQ. At the most extreme they MIGHT cut back on the M4 useage and go back to the M16A2 or order M16A4's.

No one in this day and age is going to give up on the advantages of a compact, six and a half pound rifle if they can help it. If they can make it work at all, they will do so. You should note that the complanints about the M4 is that when the targets are hit, they aren't falling, NOT that they cant reach or hit any target that they can actually see.. so the Army has very good reason that with a change in ammo they can make it good enough that they won't have to sacrifice its size and weight advantage.
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