A good friend of mine is in a dilema over his next rifle purchase.  The rifle he wants is not available, atleast not int he claiber he first watned, and there is no telling when it will be available, could be quite a while.

He has found the same rifle for a good price, but in a .270 instead of .308 like he wanted.  This rifle will be used for deer hunting and range shooting.  He has asked me for advice on what I think he should do, but I really don't know anything about the .270.  He and his hunting buddy took down 3 deer last year with my .308, so he knows that he likes it.  And I know, the .270 would be fine deer round as well, but how about it's true accuracy?

Compared to the .308, how would the .270 match up in the accuracy department.  I know it depends on the gun somewhat, but figure out of the same gun (he's trying to buy the Steyr Pro Hunter, so it's definately a good gun).

Even though the rifle's main purpose is for hunting, he'd also like to take it to the range with us for some fun shooting too.  We've already checked, and could find no match ammo for the .270, so that's a minus.  Shoule he be able to keep up with a 700PSS and 10FP in .308?  Or do you think there would be a severe difference.  Shooting would be no further than 500 yards.

I have been thinking he should wait or find something else in .308 instead of settling with the .270.  But like I said, I really don't know much about the .270 above what the ballistic tables show, but they don't show real world accuracy.

Any info would much appreciated.

wait for the 308, its worth it. Why 308, because ammo is easy to find, its less expensive, therefore less expensive to practice with. There are plenty of military surplus 308 out there but I dont know of any armed forces using 270 so only ammo is those commercial ammo and they are expensive. Brass for 308 is extreamly popular. You could form a 270 from 30-06 brass if you want to use military brass but why bother? I basically want to stay away from "commerical" calibers now because I learned the hard way on a 7mm rem magnum, too dammed expensive to shoot, ammo cost 20-40 dollars a box and recoil is too strong so I cant shoot much without wanting to quit. No luck with military components cause US dont make 7mm balls... maybe some luck with surplus 7mm mausers but they are only available in complete ammo, not bullets. However if you dont care about availability or price by all means get the 270 win, its powerful enough for deers and stuff and its almost like a 30-06, or just buy a cheap remington 700 if 308 isnt available get the ADL in 30-06, 270, 243 and have a gunsmith true/rebarrel it to 308 with a match barrel.

I hear ya on the 7mm Mag....this same friend had a Savage110 in 7mm mag.  That thing was a punisher!!!  He sold it about 6 months ago..thank god!

All of your points about the .308 are some of the very same things I've been telling him too.  No one I know og is using the .270 for any precision work, that tells me that it's not up to par with the .308.  But does anyone have any info that will back that up?

I wish I could get him to look at the Remmington ADLs and such, but he is sold on   these Steyr rifles.  Steyr is supposedly just starting to get the assembly lines running again, but there is no idication of when the .308s will start hitting the states again.    Unfortunately, he has to make a purchase now, otherwise his wife is going to use the money elsewhere!!!

.270 is probably the second most popular sporting round in the U.S., so ammo availability won't be a problem.

Advantages:
flatter shooting, higher muzzle velocity.

Disadvantages:
Not quite as accurate as .308 can be, requires long action (.308 can be had in a short action), not as large a selection of bullets as .30 cal.

The "cheap .308 ammo" everyone is talking about is 7.62x51 NATO ammo, not .308 Winchester.  Small distinction, but a distinction nonetheless.  Some rifles chambered for .308 have problems shooting 7.62, and vice versa.

Commercial sporting .308 ammo is not appreciably cheaper than .270.  If your friend loads his own, there is virtually no difference in cost. As someone else stated, it's much easier to find match ammo for .308.

The .270 will get the job done, but if he wants the utmost in accuracy, hold out for the .308 (or get another brand of rifle, the Steyr is nothing special.)

I think a lot of the problem on my friend's Savage 7mm Mag was the Savage stock.  The stock was just so light, inconjuction with the thin light barrel, the gun absorbed zero recoil, it all went to the shoulder.  After a few times shooting it, and not being able to get through a box of ammo before the bruises started, we did fill the hollow buttstock with shot and Great Stuff insulation.  This weighted the stock, and we got it to where the gun was better balanced than when new.  This helped the recoil, and a slip on recoil pad helped too.  But it was still a puncher.  He had a problem flinching with that gun, so he never could get comfortable with it, so he sold it.

I completely agree, I too don't think he should "settle" for another round, and I keep telling him that.  It's just that, he held a Steyr Pro Hunter and fell in love with it.  Now, Steyr stopped their production line for a while, during their move, and now the .308s are very hard to find.  The ones we have found, have had their prices inflated about $200 just because now they are rare.  But this time next year, once the supply is back up, the prices will probably be back in the mid 500's again.  Hell, he can get a 700P for $650.  He'd be crazy to get the Steyr Pro Hunter for the $715 we've found it for (the .270 is $520....same gun, just different caliber).

Ken, point well taken.  I don't think the cost of plinking ammo is of any real concern.  I don't use the mil surp in my .308 long gun, and I doubt he would either.  I know I can get .308 and .270 soft point hunting ammo for about $14 a box at Wally World.  So that's not too bad for just basic ammo, or for hunting ammo.  It is dicouraging that he would not be able to get "match" type ammo in .270.  Unfortunately, none of us roll our own, so that's out too.

I think everyone agrees, that the .270 is not going to be as accuarte as the .308 can be.  But how much of a difference do you think we're actually talking...1 MOA, 2 MOA, I have no idea.

Also, Ken, you say the Steyr's arenothing special.  Is there something you don't like about them inparticular.  I've just never heard anything bad about Steyr rifles, just curious.

I have been hunting deer with a Winchester .270 for twenty years. It is a fine deer gun. But here is some food for thought. This is my next purchase. Tikka Whitetail Hunter Synthetic in .308 it can be had for less than 500 dollars.


www.tikka.fi/frontpage.html

Hmmm. I've heard of Tikka, but never anything about 'em.  Whats drawing you to them?

Quoted:Ken, point well taken.  I don't think the cost of plinking ammo is of any real concern.  I don't use the mil surp in my .308 long gun, and I doubt he would either.  I know I can get .308 and .270 soft point hunting ammo for about $14 a box at Wally World.  So that's not too bad for just basic ammo, or for hunting ammo.  It is dicouraging that he would not be able to get "match" type ammo in .270.  Unfortunately, none of us roll our own, so that's out too. I think everyone agrees, that the .270 is not going to be as accuarte as the .308 can be.  But how much of a difference do you think we're actually talking...1 MOA, 2 MOA, I have no idea.

Nothing that dramatic.  More like 1 MOA vs. 1.2 MOA.  For what it's worth, the best group I've ever shot in my life was about .5 MOA, from a friend's new Remington Sendero at 100 yards in, yep, .270.

If you're not a benchrest or Palma competitor, I doubt that the accuracy difference between the two calibers are ever going to be an issue.  There are many more factors to overcome (stock bedding, scope mounting, trigger pull, shooter ability, etc.) before the rifle is sound enough for the inherent accuracy difference becomes a factor.

Also, Ken, you say the Steyr's are nothing special.  Is there something you don't like about them inparticular.  I've just never heard anything bad about Steyr rifles, just curious.

Steyr hammer forges their barrels, which means that the finished barrel is left with a lot of internal stresses that will act on the barrel as it heats up.  This is the biggest problem I have with Steyr rifles.

Other than that, they are OK, but not appreciably better than Remington, Winchester, etc., from an accuracy standpoint.

The U.S. military has been using the Remington 700 and Winchester 70 platforms for sniper rifles for many years; this should say something.

Also, there are many, many more ways to improve a Remington or Winchester's accuracy (read: aftermarket products) than the Steyr.  

It sounds like somebody has been swayed by Steyr's marketing.

I beg to differ on the 270 not being as accurate as the 308. I have owned 3, Win M70 Ranger(Walley World special), Ruger M77, Ruger #1. The least accurate of these was the M77 and it would group 1.5 moa with factory premium ammo. The M70, I replaced the stock with a McMillan trade in, rebedded the action, did a trigger job, free floated the barrel, lapped the lugs, and worked up a good handload for it using Nosler 130gr Ballistic Tips. It would shoot .5 moa out to 300yrds (longest of range used). Had a total of $463 into it minus scope. So don't believe that it is not an accurate round. The 308 has all the work of the military behind it making it so popular.

270.......Best deer cartridge overall......

Stumbled across this resource: www.huntingmag.com/dynamic.asp?intSectionID=325

Not sure about the .270. But the .243 Winchester, 7mm-08 are both based on the same case: .308 Winchester. That means that their actions and bolts should all be similar. In many cases a caliber change is a barrel swap away--at least that's what Weatherby claims.

Tikka is owned by Sako and distributed by Berrata here. I've got my eyes on a Sako 75 Finnlight in .308 Win. Compact. Light. Very smooth bolt. The Sauer 202 has a nice bolt too. Both rifles retail over $1,000 though.

Edited to add:
Today I got a look at Steyr Prohunter Mountain in .308 Win. They had just received it. The salesman did a quick cleaning and assembled the rifle for me. The bolt on it was rough. Could've been the packing grease like the salesman claimed, but I couldn't see myself trying to get off a quick second shot without metal to metal gouging. The price on it was two hundred less than either the Sako or Sauer.

The 270 will be flatter shooting and is plenty accurate. I've had two and both would do MOA or better. The 308's biggest advantage, IMHO, is being a short action round. If he wants a 308 that's probably what will make him happy.

Ken:

"....If you're not a benchrest or Palma competitor, I doubt that the accuracy difference between the two calibers are ever going to be an issue. There are many more factors to overcome..."

Yeah, your definately right about that.  I doubt I am getting the most accuarcy capable out of any of my weapons...but it sure is fun trying.

"..It sounds like somebody has been swayed by Steyr's marketing..."

Well, I do admit, I handled one of these rifles too, and I was impressed with it.  I wouldn't pay PSS money for it, but the feel of the gun was really good.  I liked the adjustable stock, I wonder about the reliability of the detachable magazine though.

I hadn't heard anything bad about the hammer forging barrels before, but I guess I really can't think of any of the big rifles that are using that method.  That might tell you something.




EKrutz64 and BlackandGreen and ipschoser1:

 Thanks for the input.  Glad to hear you've been able to get the .270 to work so well.  Just wish there was good quality match type factory ammo out there for the .270.  Might have to break down and tryout handloading someday.  I don't think the long action would bother him really.  The 7mm Mag he had before was LA, but it is something else to think about.



talbalos:

 Thanks for the link.  So you saw the Mountain for around $800?  Good grief, that is robbery.  See what I mean about the price inflating?  I don't remember exactly how the bolt was on the one I saw with my friend (it was last fall).  But I don't remember thinking anything bad about it, will have to try and check one out again before he makes a decision.  I felt the Pro Hunter was a very nice rifle, with some neat features, but more of a $500 rifle, IMO.

Recommend .270 WSM, even better.....

My Dad has a .308win Rem 700adl...
I have a Browning abolt hunter .270win

With His gun I have dropped four deer,
haven't had the oppourtunity to drop one big enough with mine yet....

My .270 with my handloads can do 9/16 of an inch at 100 yards...
My Dad's .308 does 1.25" at 100 yds (also been shot a heck of a lot more, could be Barrel Life? 7000+ rounds) with His Handloads

The .270 is a very accurate caliber... I love mine... For the small Ga deer I use hornady 110gr V-max IMR 4831 powder 58.4grs, fed gold match primers, 9/16", 3225fps 2504FtLbsE, not Bad for a browning!

By the Way the Last Time I Checked, The Shop I worked for HAS A STYER SBS IN .308 if you wanted to have it Transfered, I think they Charge $40.00 shipping/tranfers $659.95
Georgia Range and Guns (404)-366-7861
Give Paul a Call and ask about it...
-Chuck

Quoted: talbalos:  Thanks for the link.  So you saw the Mountain for around $800?  Good grief, that is robbery.  See what I mean about the price inflating?  I don't remember exactly how the bolt was on the one I saw with my friend (it was last fall).  But I don't remember thinking anything bad about it, will have to try and check one out again before he makes a decision.  I felt the Pro Hunter was a very nice rifle, with some neat features, but more of a $500 rifle, IMO.

Yeah, I thought $800 was overpriced. Then again, I'm in the San Francisco/San Jose, California area.Even gun show prices are high compared to the rest of the country. I've seen them on www.gunbroker.com for $500. Problem is that gunshops don't seem to be doing well in the SF/San Jose area: steep commercial rents; combined city, state and fed regulations; general shrinkage of the customer base. Two gunshops have gone out of business in the last year. The best stocked shop is over 20 miles from me. To the gun store owners credit, they have to pay the rent somehow. Unfortunately I can't always afford to do business with them.

My $.02 worth...I have a Ruger M77R in .270 that I bought new in 1977 and this thing is STILL a real shooter. At 100 yds, I usually shoot at the target manufacturers logo (2.5 X 7 scope). I read plenty about folks spending money on accurizing their weapons, but I honestly have a hard time believing there is something that can be done to make this gun more accurate. IMHO, I don't need it. Also, the .270 is a real pleasure to just shoot-doesn't punish you like other calibers (re: 30-06). Example: My girlfriend shoots and deer hunts with my .270. The .270 will also drop anything up to and including elk. Sure, there's likely a shitload of surplus ammo out there for .308, but I rarely shoot more than 2 boxes of ammo anytime I take it out. I guess it's not hard to tell that I'm a REAL fan of the .270. Do it.

I've had about a half dozen .270's, every one was very accurate all would do sub MOA.  The .270 shoot's much flatter than a .308, performance on deer sized game or varmit's is far better than .308.  Recoil is very close, in my part of the country commercial ammo is easier to find in .270, it is far more popular for hunting.  If you want cheap surplus, or AP, then the .308 is the only choice.

Thank you all for your help.  At this moment I don't know what he is going to end up doing, but I think he does feel a bit more comfortable about the .270.  He did just learn last night that the .270 Steyr he was considering is only a 20" barrel, which isn't exactly what he was wanting.  He would prefer more of a 23"-25" barrel.  So who knows what's going to happen.

Thanks again, you've all been a big help.

Polyak - I take it your friend is looking at one of the CDNN guns for $500?  Try and see if there is someone that own's one of these that can let him shoot it; I don't think he will be that impressed.  The stock is typical Steyr.  In a word, "junk"; very light weight(more recoil), and too much flex.  From what I've seen of them, he won't be impressed by their accuracy in any caliber.  Don't get me wrong, I love Steyr's.  My precision rifle is an Steyr/Mcmillan SSG, and it holds it's own against the best of them.  I think he should shop around, there are better rifles available.

I have seen pretty good accuracy from 270s, and recently read some articles about a couple of world class shooters using a 270 based carteridge for 300-600 target shooting.  One of my uncles out in Oregon used to do trick shooting with a 270, and took many a deer with a 270.  

I think if you reload, which will really help make your rifle more accurate anyways, a flat shooting rifle that is larger than 6mm will do the job nicely.  

I was a little bummed to hear about the recoil of a 7mm Rem Mag in the 110 Savage.  I just picked on up yesterday for $290 with scope, a 110 Savage bolt gun.  (it has the cheap black plastic stock and a Simmons 3X9 cheapy scope)  While I have not shot a 7mm Mag, I have shot 3 inch 1 1/4 oz slugs through my Mossburg and I can't imagine anything worse.  The Mossburg does not fit me very well at all, and thus I think that is the reason it beats me up so bad.  Recoil problems are usually a result of poor fit!  and as they say recoil is subjective.

Don't shy away from .270 WIN!  It's a caliber that's available at every hardware store in deer hunting areas, and if its primary purpose is hunting, then there plenty of really good choices in ammo out there.

I read an article last year in some shooting magazine, that the .270 was looked at hard when choosing a sniper weapon for the military years, ago.  Some shooting guru's thought it wouls make a much better round than the .308, but they also wanted to minimize calibers used, so ended up with the .308.  I wish I could find it.  I know I have it around here somewhere.

Another alternative is the SIG SHR970.  SIG Arms, is not importing the rifle anymore, but you can still find them.  They are gauranteed 1 MOA or better out of the box, and have an interchangeable barel system.  I own two of them, a .280 Rem, and a .270.  I have a 7mmRem Mag barrel, and have .308 barrel coming, also.  I am considering picking up another one, as they are running about $425.00 delivered.

Hard to go wrong with the .270, .308, or any of the other calibers mentioned, and if you're not wanting to shoot surplus through it, then that is not a factor.

Yeah Rabbit9, you are correct.  The .270 he was considering was from CDNN.  The ones our local shop used to have are gone, and they dont know know how long it will take to get any more in any caliber.  I do appreciate the honest opinions of the Steyrs.  I think I have him talked into waiting till atleast this weekend to make a decision.  This weekend he's going to take another look at the 700PSS and see if that might work for him hunting or not.  The price of the 700PSS is only $650 right now, which is cheaper than the .308 Steyrs he's found, and only $150 more than the CDNN .270 Steyr.


P226:  To tell you the truth, my friends Savage 7mm Mag, was the first magnum type rifle I had shot.  The recoil was pretty intense, but I think you could get used to it after a while.  The treatments we did to his stock worked extremely well.  I can't reccomend enough for you to try it out.  Adding a little bit of shot to the buttstock mixed in with the Great Stuff foam did quite a number on that rifle.


BigGuns:  I'll pass the info along to him, might have to check out one those SIGs.  I don't think I've ever seen one actually.

BigGuns - How does the barrel swap work on the SIG SHR970 going from long action(.270/7mm) to short action(.308)?

Polyak:
I've heard that RWS, the new Steyr importer/distributor in the US has begun shipping to dealers. Now I wish I'd looked closely at that Steyr Prohunter Mountain to see whether it was imported by RWS or GSI.

Quoted: Stumbled across this resource: www.huntingmag.com/dynamic.asp?intSectionID=325 Not sure about the .270. But the .243 Winchester, 7mm-08 are both based on the same case: .308 Winchester. That means that their actions and bolts should all be similar. In many cases a caliber change is a barrel swap away--at least that's what Weatherby claims. Tikka is owned by Sako and distributed by Berrata here. I've got my eyes on a Sako 75 Finnlight in .308 Win. Compact. Light. Very smooth bolt. The Sauer 202 has a nice bolt too. Both rifles retail over $1,000 though.

The .270 is based on the 30-06 case.

I have a Sauer 200, which is the model previous to the 202. Mine is in .308 and is a left handed action. It is very accurate. I have shot several 3/8" groups at 100 yards with handloads  loaded with Sierra 168 gr. match bullets and W-748. It is a very nice rifle. the best part about it is that I only paid $500 for it when a place was closing them out back in about 1989.