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I agree with Big Bear, Why second guess those two hero's decision? Armchair quarterback is all this is. we can debate the effectiveness of the 5.56 vs. 7.62 or M16/M4 vs. M14 till our face turn blue, but as far as what Gordon and Shughart took into battle that day is unquestionable the most effective combo in their mind, and that is fine with me. A true hero, those two were.
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I doubt that you would feel that way if someone next to you in a fighting hole did it and saved your life. You may consider that scenario and insist that it still does not rate a medal and is a foolish thing to do. After all, you can't possibly be wrong. If it saves the life of an ungrateful ass, perhaps it is a foolish thing to do. Regardless, better men than you have determined that in fact, it does rate a medal up to and including the MOH. |
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Actually ITB at Ft Benning taught us to "Cook off" grenades when throwing them into bunkers or in a MOUT situation so that it cannot be returned to the original owner. They did mention to throw hard also, but cooking off was the point stressed |
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I've been to Benning (and several other) MOUT courses, but I've never been taught that. Personally, I don't trust grenade fuzes. They're mechanical/chemical, not electronic, and the variance in burn times is extreme. Personally, just knowing the nature of grenades makes my leary of even carrying them. |
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U.S. Army Basic Training, Ft Dix, NJ, Summer 1984. Yep we were taught to cook off the grenade when engaing a bunker. Matter of fact during the test if you DIDN'T cook it off you failed that stage. SJSAMPLE - were you one of those guys in class that was always being told to stand up at the back of the room because they were falling asleep or otherwise not paying attention? ;) |
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Feel free to do so at any time, Sukebe. I would urge any of you to review MOH citations as well as those for Bronze and Silver Stars, etc. Compare the valor and heroism of some of these citations with a single act of panic and stupidity and tell me that they are deserving of a MOH. My initial post was to be informative and give good advice. Once again, there is no reason to throw yourself on a grenade...unless you're Sukebe, of course. Take your insulting remark and cram it. |
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I was taught the cook-off technique at the ITB as well (C-2/54, June '88). That's not to say I'd DO it, but it was part of the curriculum. QS |
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I went through E 2/54 and it wasnt just the drill sgts who told us to do it, it was 29th inf Regt guys who were the Range Cadre. They were the ones who instructed us on cooking off. As if i would do it or not, i havent been put in that position yet, but i would probably give it a quick 1.5-2 count instead of the recommended 3 sec count. |
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I guess I can accept the concept, but the US Army buys grenades for around $8 each (last time I did a bunker inventory was in 1992). Something about them just makes me want to get rid of them, and QUICK. I do remember close in bunker exercises and seeing people cooking them off, but I don't remember being instructed to do so. IIRC, letting the spoon fly was a big NO GO. Thanks for the clarification. |
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Shugart didn't really have a choice. He had been carrying the M14 to engage 'appropriate' targets while he observed for Gordon who was using a .50 Barret while on the chopper. Dismounting into the city was far from their thoughts when they left that morning, unless they happened to crash, for which contingency Gordon was carrying a CAR of some variety as a backup. Having said that, Shugart DID use a M16 that day. He used at least one of of the crew chiefs M16's according to WO Durants statment. Possibly because he ran out of 7.62 but its hard to know for sure, he may have just traded to the quicker to load gun. There were 2 M16's on the chopper The problem with minigun power is a direct reason why the Marine Corps Super Stallions and Sea Knights carry heavy, slow, Browning M2's for door guns. If shot down and main power is lost the guns will still fire. They have nowhere near the volume of fire that the miniguns do when everything is working right but the Marines seem to have a sensitivity toward being killed without having a chance to shoot back... This whole affair was repeated again in the early hours of operation Anaconda in Afghanistan. This time everybody, including the pilots, had at least a M4. The lack of minigun power was again a problem, but in the end the 9000 rounds of 7.62 on the MH-47 served to keep the Rangers GPMG's going throughout the fight. |
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You're right, we can only speculate that they were carrying M4s (referred to as "CAR-15s" in the book) and not 11.5" guns. But M4s are more likely. The point is: even though Howe was complaining about the ammo, the performance of the ammo is DIRECTLY linked to the velocity imparted on it by the gun. Shorter barrels = less velocity = shorter fragmentation range. -Troy |
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We MP, BT/AIT 11/83-4/84, were also told "cooking off" the grenade would be a good idea. However we were also warned that 5 second fuses, 3 second fuses, and 1.5 second fuses sometimes got mixed up during assembly......Smoke grenades use the 1.5 second fuse, frag grenades use the 5 second fuse. Also when we were throwing live grenades, no one was allowed to "cook off" anything. There it was grenade and spoon thrown together. At bunker killing it was training grenade "cook off", and throw. Think about that. If it's such a good idea why was it forbidden to "cook off" a live grenade in training? FYI Howe complains about a CAR-15, which will have 1/12 rifling and not stabilize M855. Also look at the Ranger/Delta casualties. Most of the killed were hit in the head or neck, were hit by RPG-7's, or died in helicopter crashes. 73 were wounded, and a some of them seems able to continue to fight, and some were certainly mobile. 1 Ranger got hit on the run back to safety, and the round bounced of his shoulder blade causing a "divot" and no disfunction. One guy got hit with an AK round in the forehead that penetrated his skull, and simply bandaged it and continued to fight. Even with rifles shot placement counts. I would also guess that some people that were hit but still able to move, would bleed out if they didn't seek medical treatment soon after being hit. Shugart and Gordon, didn't have a bunch of weapons at their disposal. They had weapons with them to perform aerial "sniping". The choice was to go in or not. They went. Let's just remember they would be more deadly with any weapon than most anyone else in the rest of the world, not because of what weapon they had, but because of who the weapon was being operated by. |
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Alright Troy, I'll buy that. Howe may have had a M4 but we don't know for sure. That question has been bantered about on this forum for years. Maybe DVDTracker will clear that up for us when he meets Paul Howe later this year. As you well know, the D-boys didn't have to stick with issue weapons... they could use any weapons platform they wanted... i.e. Randy Shugart's M14 and custom add-ons not available through the regular supply chain.
AND... putting aside Hollywood's notorious reputation for getting movie guns wrong... IIRC, in the movie Paul Howe had a very short barreled CAR, at least in one scene I remember. There were Delta and Ranger advisors on the set, some of them even playing parts in the movie, and it's possible that the movie was in some ways more accurate than the book. There are of course other factors too, like skinny human targets high on khat, but we've been down that road a hundred times here. |
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Cooking off grenades is in the 7-8 ARTEPs for many tasks: enter/clear room, knock out bunker, etc. If you never cooked off grenades, then you were never a "T". |
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Sir, For the record, he was using a 14.5" M4 with a masterkey shotgun attached. He did talk about the poor performance of the m855 not knocking down most of his targets and having to hit them 5, 6 times. He was disappointed that he was using the latest weapon system, and the latest ammunition and was very disappointed in both. Please read the footnotes at the end of the book. |
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Thank you for the reference. I read the book but I don't recall that part. I'll look it up in the footnotes and get back to you. If you're right, I'll stand corrected. Thanks again. Edited to add: If you are right I'm going to feel pretty stupid. That would have settled alot of debates over the last few years. |
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I get the idea the it's promoted. I just want to know how many people are actually cooking off live grenades in training or in combat? I've probably thrown 15 live grenades in my lifetime, and none of them were allowed to be cooked off. Sure, I cooked off trainers. Anyhow, it's not an incredibly exciting topic, but I appreciate the clarification by everyone. |
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To address the Minigun (M134) operation issue after an aircraft has been disabled:
I agree the downed aircraft's (helo ect.) weapons system should have the ability to function without it's main power source(ie host aircraft) in order to provide adequate protection for the downed aircrew. Yet, there should be a strong precaution not to let the enemy utilize the weapon system against us in an unfortunate event they are able to get the weapon in there custody. |
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I am not inclined to beleave Sgt. Howes statements. Most shooting in Mogadishu took place well within the ranges you have posted in the ammo FAQ that M855 should still fragment, even from a 14.5in barrel. And this has not been followed by any similar reports of problems from Afghanistan, where ranges are much longer, and where they should be operating beyond fragmentation range for not only the carbine but also the rifle and SAW... I think we have one of two things. 1. The soldiers were missing more people than they want to admit. 2. In Mogadishu, we were shooting soo many people in such a short time that you actually got to SEE what you can normally glean only from statistics- NO small arm/ammo combination has 100% fool proof stopping power. That one or two out of every 10 people you shoot in the torso are going to get up again is pretty much a given-unless you hit them with something powerful enough to cause them to be dismembered. Sgt Howe and his people probably dropped 9 men stone dead for every one they saw take hits and keep fighting. Its just that the ones that got up quite naturally scared the hell out of them, thats not someting they expected or was in their experience. The last time we had been in street fighting like this, in Panama four years earlier we simply never shot anywhere near this many people in the entire campaign, much less at one place. In the Gulf, most US personnal never fired their personal weapons and only a few real firefights took place as aircraft, artillery, and AFV guns were almost always present to crush resistnace. As a result even our experenced carrier soldiers on the scene had simply not seen enough people get shot to notice that things like this DO happen. The death ray weapon does not yet exist. |
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Are the marine corps helos using ammocans attached to their m2's or using the electric feeding system. I think the black hawks would have had the same problem with m60's not working because the feeding from the body of the helo didnt have power. They carry 4000 rounds for each minigun and i believe belts being pulled cant keep up with it, they need to be helped along |
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The USMC Super Stallion that pulled Scott O'Grady out of Bosnia was using miniguns at each side door and an M2 on the rear ramp. Is this SOP or has it changed?
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First and foremost all the men who served are heros. Second of all if you were not there to recieve the opord and actually going on the mission then you probably don't have much right to second guess their choices made on weapons selection and or how they engaged their targets. We can all sit back and play arm chair QB and use the scenario for after action review and lessons learned value but to say they made bad choices thats a hard one to stomach as they were the operators who were there on that mission so they made the choices they thought would best serve them and there teams. Third of all I was continually taught to cook off grenades and M-25's as well during all the training. We had to pull the pin and let the spoon fly then we had to throw the grenades and like someone else stated on certain stages especially if we didn't cook them off we didn't qualify. I do agree it is dangerous as the fuses are not 100% reliable and accurate in their timing but then again walking across the road can be dangerous or each time you put a round downrange it could blow up in your face. I am a firm believer in the train like you fight because you will fight like you train. Anyone who knows understands the importance of stress induced training at the highest and hardest levels to best prepare you for whatever situations you may encounter so that you can return to your loved ones when its all over.
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Ones I saw had M2's, that is the normal equipment for CH-53E's like in the O'Grady rescue. Unlike AF Pave Low Stallions the Marines Super Stallions don't have perminently installed weaponry. The miniguns, their wireing, and their ammo tanks are a 'semi-perminent' instillation. The M2's and their flex shutes and their cans of ammo go in or out in a couple of minutes. |
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Actually, there have been LOTS of similar (i.e., bad) reports of M855 from M4s in Afghanistan, according to several sources, including Dr. Gary Roberts, who is currently one of the lead folks working on ammo issues for the Army. He has access to full after-action reports, so he knows what he's talking about. And, there were plenty of shots in the Mog that exceeded the 50 yard fragmentation range of M855 from an M4. It is also of note that Dr. Roberts has found that there is enough variation in construction of the SS-109 bullet that, when fragmentation does occur, the large channel can take anywhere between 5"-9" to begin, depending on the bullet lot. And lower velocities tend to make that problem worse. Few Somalis were 9" thick... With the information now available to us from real, reproducable scientific testing, none of the reported problems should be any surprise. In fact, they are exactly what I expect. Note that you didn't hear complaints about M855 from SAW gunners or those carrying 20" M16s, where the fragmentation range is more like 150 yards. These folks generally reported that their weapons and ammo performed very well. The complaints are coming from the M4 (i.e., short barrel) users... -Troy |
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The whole "AR" system - rifle/bullet - was designed to be used with a 20" barrel. (Although by 1963, it had been determined that an 18" barrel would also suffice nicely.) 14.5" barreled weapons are for CQB. (duh) Wish someone would 'bronze' Troy's statement. |
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I was an infantryman at Ft Benning, GA when the whole thing happened. I will not allow my personal feeling to be represented here. I will only say that there is only one person to blame and that is the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States, who, at the time was Bill Clinton.
I would have chosen neither the M14 or the M4. I am a big believer in belt fed- a SAW or chopped M60 would have been preferred. |
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Memory can be tricky, but I seem to remember that when I went through Infantry OSUT training at Ft. Benning in 1990, that we were required to cook off one live grenade before we threw it. I distinctly remember the severe pucker factor involved in taking a live hand grenade in hand, removing the safety clip, pulling the pin, releasing the spoon and counting "1 thousand, 2 thousand" before throwing the thing, all the while remembering that the frag has a "3-5 second fuze." I also remember watching the intent looks on the range instructor's faces while they supervised other would-be soldiers in this drill. I don;t remember the look on the face of my own instructor since I was so intent on the grenades themselves.
As to throwing one's self on a grenade, the primary detractor of the practice in this thread, evidently has NO military experience at all, because anyone who does, and who was trained in the high-pressure style, knows that in combat, and even simulated combat conditions, your thought process CANNOT keep up with the action. When a grenade lands at your feet, you DON'T HAVE TIME to think through a list of four options and weight them out, you either act, or you don't and you do so RIGHT NOW. Acts of heroism don't necessarily reflect the best decision possible, heck the decision may have been downright stupid, but what MOH activities generally have in common is an overwhelming concern for the lives of other soldiers, a concern so deeply ingrained and sincerely felt that the person puts themselves in harm's way in an attempt to save the lives of others, even when the odds are stacked 90-10 against them, they go because they love their fellow soldiers as brothers. That's why we award the MOH, not because the action is tactically brilliant. If you cannot understand that, you are missing the WHOLE point. "greater love hath no man than he lay down his life for a friend..." Jesus Christ won the ultimate MOH since he died for everyone ever born and who would ever be born. I think, since I was not there, my opinion on the tactics and weapons employed by Shughart and Gordon is moot. |
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Name one basic training course that teaches the soldier or marine to let the spoon fly and count down the fuze? Army Basic Training, Ft. Dix NJ 1986... Grenade qualification course... When engaging a bunker, Pull pin, release spoon, count 1000, 2000, 3000 and throw the grenade through the firing port... hit the ground and aim rifle at the bunker's exit to engage fleeing enemy. As I was told, "As long as your American fuse was not made on a Monday or a Friday you are probably OK" |
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LOL. Next time I do a bunker audit I'll check the fuzes for date codes. I cannot imagine the pucker factor of cooking off a live one, but thanks for the clarification. |
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Imagine what ONE PASS by an AC-130 would have done to that crowd. JUST ONE. And then think about the President who wouldn't allow the 130 or the Armor to be part of that raid.
But yet gave tanks to the ATF and FBI to burn down what some would call a church. |
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Looking back at the movie. One of the guys had a M-14 with awhat looked like a dot sight of some sort. How realistic is that to see someting like that at that time. If He was a sniper I would think he would have a regular scope. I dont know it just got me thinkin.
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I often times thought of mounting a red dot on my duty sniper rifles as an LEO sniper.
Just never did do it. Makes sense for that (BHD) mission. Those two knew they only had so much ammo and had to make every shot count. They train that way anyway. A couple of full auto bursts and they would have been out. Being a sniper myself, I am a firm believer in controlled, single round, aimed fire. Sometimes though, you just have to do it quickly. That's where the red dot would come in. For the cop, especially the cop sniper, every single round has a law suit attached to it. Am I making sense ? |
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What do you think we should discuss then? Maybe color coordinating a summer picnic? Hell, this is a gunboard. We talk primarily about military style weapons here. The site is filled with men, many of us are current or ex-military. This is one of the most appropriate discussions I've seen around here for some time. Nobody here has said anything that is disrespectful to the men who fought in Somalia. Quite the contrary. I think we all have a great deal of respect for them all. As for not having enough time to make decisions in combat, that is what training is all about. You become prepared to react without deep thought, and hopefully are trained to react appropriately. I'll spare you the neurologic reasons for why such training works. |
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He started the day shooting from a moving helicopter. That does cause some changes to normal sniper equipment. A dot sight with no magnification is probably the best thing for shooting from a moving heilo at targets that are also running in various directions. Its not what he would of used in a normal ground sniper role. |
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A) The M113 (what was used at Waco, IIRC) is hardly a 'tank'. It doesn't even have an integrated weapons system. It's an APC, and an ancient one at that! B) That 'church' contained pepole wanted for federal crimes, and armed with weapons that could have killed that 'tank'. Also, tinfoil hat theories aside, it's still very likely that the BDs blew themselves up. Flashbangs and tear gas grenades don't cause that kind of blaze (unless the occupants help it along, by storing flammables near likely grenade entry points). The only way for the feds to make the building go up like that would be flamethrowers, WP/incinedrary artillery rounds, or air-surface weapons (napalm). An M113 doesn't carry any of the above (unless the occupants have FTs). I cant' stand Clinton any more than the rest of you, but I'm not going to side with 'Aliens landed at Roswell', 'The UN is going to take over the WORLD' (yeah right, them and who's army? Certainly not ours, and we make up most of their 'peacekeeping' forces...), or 'The feds blew up Waco'. |
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Uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the feds pump the building FULL of flammable CS? FOR HOURS? Sems to me a wooden structure, punctured at strategic points by that injection nozzle, full of flammable CS, on a breezy day.... And didn't the hostage negotiator ask how many fire extinguishers were in there, then joke "somebody better have fire insurance"?? And weren't incendiary CS grenade rounds found despite what the feds claimed... And if YOU had something to kill those tanks, wouldn't you, especially if you were surrounded and "crazy," as they were? Then why didn't they??? Wait, that's crazy talk. |
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Well, comenting on the stupidity of insufficient fire-supression equipment (espeically if you're preparing for 'doomsday') in a wood building isn't intent to burn it down. CS (tear gas, IIRC) grenades are only 'incinedrary' in that the bursting charge can start a fire. If that charge was capable of igniting the gas, then that would defeat the purpose of tear gas. And this isn't the only time that tear gas has been used in preparation for a raid. Filling the building with it would have been preferable to hallway-by-hallway fighting. The logic would have been that the BDs would bail out or retreat to another part of the compound, not that they would do something to ignite the gas. Finally, I never referred to the BDs as 'crazy', just 'reported to posess weapons capable of killing an M113' (.50cal rifles, IIRC). There had been a firefight, and the FBI had reason to believe that the BDs would use whatever they had. That justified the APC. |
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Im sorry, it was not M113s, there were M2 Bradleys from the 1st Cav there. You see them clearly in all the videos of the action. |
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I've had some CS training as well, but I never trained to mount a nozzle on an APC and shoot it into a building for 4 hours. And I didn't say CS was flammable "in and of itself," I said the way they deployed it was flammable. I don't know if the CS is flammable or whether it is another ingredient in the type used that day. As to CS itself, it IS flammable: www.waco93.com/detcs.pdf Flashpoint is 197 degrees. According to what I've read, the method of insertion and the volume made it EXTREMELY flammable. I SAW the Congressional hearings, both as they occurred and on the Waco tape, where several CS experts testified as to how flammable it is inside a structure. Fire cheifs, CS specialists, etc. Remember, they pumped it in for several hours, we're not talking a couple ferrets here. Quote from Janet Reno seems to belie your position: "JANET RENO (US Attorney General) I am very, very troubled by the information I received this week suggesting that pyrotechnic devices may have been used in the early morning hours of April the 19th, 1993 at Waco." -Taken from the Waco official site. Why would she care if it's not flammable. It's so flammable when used this way that the feds initially denied using the 651 rounds, that is until somebody found one there. In fact, you're the FIRST person I've ever heard say it's not flammable, why didn't the feds think of that during the hearings? |
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In that situation I would go with a M14. The reason is range, stopping power, rate of fire. Its easy to unload with a M16A2 or M4. The muzzle of a M14 goes up faster then a M4. The power from a M14 makes you time your shots and aim. A .308 goes further and with better accuracy. Have you ever shot a steel plate with a .308? Nice punch to the steel. Image a line or group of skinnies!!
Size: M4-29.8in to 33in + M14-44 1/3in - Barrel: M4-.223-14.5in - M14-.308-22in + Mag cap: M4-30rd + M14-20rd - Fire Selection: M4-Safe,Semi,Auto(depends of varient) + M14-Safe,Semi,Auto + The M4 wins on specs, but the M14 kicks ass. |
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No there were M113's there, about a half dozen, they arrived first. THEN they sent for a couple borrowed, unarmed Bradleys from Ft. Hood, were afraid that .50 cal would penetrate the M113's. The M113's came from the TX ANG. Texas DPS also owns a couple M113's of their own, painted blue, that showed up at the "Republic of Texas" standoff. |
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Yes the both the initial raid and the assault on the Davidians were bad ideas. I would like to add that the Davidians could have avoided the entire situation if they hadn't fired on the ATF agents serving the warrant. They also could have surrendered at any time before or during the final assault. Their leader was bent on a final showdown and he got it.
Personally, I would rather take my changes in a court of law instead of shooting it out with armed ATF agents or the Police. |
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I had friends in the Waco incident. Several were shot. Some killed. They are fathers, brothers, and husbands. They are and were good agents.
They were not what many on this site paint them to be. Their mission was a no win from the start. Koresh was a monster. Jimbeam got it right. |
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actually i have video footage of it. Here it is: and another: |
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I said I wasn't going to comment on this any further, but this was pretty compelling. The main tactical problem was that there were only two of them to cover a perimeter of 360 degrees with a very small cleared area around it and lots of entrances into that area. So a lot of targets could show up real fast and from all directions. Second, they only had a limited amount of ammunition available to them and they could only carry a small amount of ammunition on them from their LZ to the crash site (remember they had to infiltrate on foot because the helicopter couldn't get real close.) Hosing down the crowd on full auto would have been a profligate waste of ammo and left them high and dry pretty quick. It also would have caused the local militia commander to up the ante with RPG's and such pretty darn quickly. The SAW, being a hefty, bulky weapon, is pretty slow to bring to bear, even for a tough guy like Deltas are reputed to be. Switching from a target at 0 degrees, to another at 90 degrees and back again, perhaps dodging the weapon around cover along the way is going to be pretty exhausting. When you are two guys against a mob, fast transitions between targets is CRITICAL. The basic problem is simple numbers and time. If you've got 100 sammy militia firing weapons at you at once with a 1% hit ratio, sooner or later the luck of the draw is going to fall to them, even if you have a 100% hit ratio. Why, because for each shot you get off, they get off 10-20 at you. Sooner or later you are going to pop up into their bullet and then the game is over. You may fight awhile longer, but your effectiveness just went way down. So the interval between the last lucky shot and the next will get narrower and unless help arrives real soon, you are screwed. As it turns out, time was WAAAY against Durant, Shugart and Gordon. No one could get to that crash site in force for hours, and while they might have been the best of the best, they had a limited amount of ammo and energy to fight with while the sammys had thousands of potential militia to throw at them. Sooner or later, even with a 100% hit ratio and no wounds, sooner or later they would have run out of ammo and the sammy's would have gotten them, or just gotten frustrated and slammed them with another RPG. Game over. No weapon choice Shugart and Gordon could have made, would have amounted to a hill of beans in their survival. The ONLY thing that would have mattered is if relief in force could have gotten to them quickly. I'm talking about a platoon of Rangers or 10th Mountain infantrymen, either rammed in in APCs or dropped in by a ballsy group of chopper pilots. Enough guys to hold and extend the perimeter and enough ammunition to hold for a couple hours under heavy contact. No one could provide that in a timely manner, so Shugart and Gordon , despite incredible training, ability and incredible bravery, were doomed from the moment their feet touched the dirt and the chopper lifted out. No weapon in anyone's inventory, under the conditions that existed, would have made any difference at all, they simply ran out of time. |
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This is to the people that say there wern't tanks used in the Dividian compound.
It doesn't pertain to the thread but I get tired of wrong details. Several M728 Combat Engineer Vehicles were used. The CEV's mount a 165mm main gun, have a large "A" frame boom mounted to the turret along with a bull dozer blade mounted to the front of the hull. They are based on the M60 tank. |
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