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Posted: 7/4/2002 6:03:59 AM EDT
hopefully this isnt a repeat

www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/story/0,1271,-1854488,00.html

"Soldiers in Afghanistan have reported three faults with the army's new SA80-A2 rifles, the Ministry of Defence say.

Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon has told troops he would investigate claims the weapon misfires badly, the same problem suffered by the gun it replaced.

Armed forces minister Adam Ingram told shadow defence secretary Bernard Jenkin that three formal equipment failure reports had been filed from Afghanistan.

He said: "The SA80-A2 is operating in a very difficult environment in Afghanistan with both dusty conditions and extremes of temperature.

"In an operational environment any concerns are treated very seriously and a specialist team on the ground is investigating these reports as a matter of urgency."

The original SA80 was suspended from the Nato Nominated Weapon List in 1997 after soldiers experienced problems such as jamming in extreme weather.

Following a £92 million modification programme, the revised weapon was declared one of the best in the world by the MOD and was introduced earlier than planned for use by troops in Afghanistan."

Link Posted: 7/4/2002 6:09:04 AM EDT
There's a right way, a wrong way, and the British way. Wonder if it's made by Lucas Electric...
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 6:51:30 AM EDT
Check out the story about the running knife battle. It's the one titled six jailed.

The SA80 story kinda sounds like what the first runs of the AR were like in VietNam.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 7:11:16 AM EDT
The phrase, "you can't polish a turd" comes to mind.

Link Posted: 7/4/2002 9:06:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ipschoser1:
There's a right way, a wrong way, and the British way. Wonder if it's made by Lucas Electric...

You mean the folks who make the refrigerators they keep their WARM beer in?

Do you also mean the folks with the 3 position switch: Dim, Flicker, and Off.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 9:16:09 AM EDT

British SA80-A2 no worky worky Afghanistan

It no Worky Work anywhere!
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 9:17:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:

Originally Posted By ipschoser1:
There's a right way, a wrong way, and the British way. Wonder if it's made by Lucas Electric...

You mean the folks who make the refrigerators they keep their WARM beer in?

Do you also mean the folks with the 3 position switch: Dim, Flicker, and Off.


..and let us not forget the Infamous Lucas "ZENER DIODE"
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 9:46:47 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 10:24:09 AM EDT
IIRC, the original SA-80s were the turds of Desert Storm. The "fix" was to re-work the guns into A2s, and download the SS109 ammo they use....


Scott

P.S. Turd polish cheaper by the gallon?

Link Posted: 7/4/2002 10:49:29 AM EDT

There's a right way, a wrong way, and the British way. Wonder if it's made by Lucas Electric...


I heard that. I have a fully restored 68" MGB and it requires constant "tinkering" and adustments just to keep it running. I guess they like their guns to work that way too.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 11:00:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 11:37:19 AM EDT
its funny how they go threw all this trouble for a "superior" rifle, they would probably be better off with a crappy AK that fires everytime you pull the trigger.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 11:44:24 AM EDT
Anyone have any report on the G36 in Afghanistan?

I say Britain should begin trials for a new rifle.

May this be a lesson to everyone, no matter how much you dress up shit, improve it, its still shit.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 12:21:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/4/2002 12:30:49 PM EDT by snafu]
when are the brits gonna get it? this thing has never worked right from the beginning. the compactness of the design looks great on paper and in the soldiers hands. but if it doesn't work why bother?

something funny (to me at least):
i recently read a report on the love affiar with british cars from the leak a quart of oil a day age. they had a line in the article that said something like - "it's been said the british don't build computers becuase they couldn't figure out how to make them leak oil."
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 12:32:36 PM EDT
This is not news. They are having the Germans upgrade this junk, and it will still be junk!

P.S. The aug is not much better.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 12:42:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ar10er:
This is not news. They are having the Germans upgrade this junk, and it will still be junk!

P.S. The aug is not much better.



These are the new upgraded models having these problems.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 12:46:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Scarecrow:

Originally Posted By ar10er:
This is not news. They are having the Germans upgrade this junk, and it will still be junk!

P.S. The aug is not much better.



These are the new upgraded models having these problems.



LOL

I should have known!
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 2:00:41 PM EDT
You mean there'a a Lucas firearms division?

Poor bastards, I feel for them. I once owned a 72 MGB. I saw the light (er, lack of light) and sold the bloody thing. I could write a book about the problems I had with it. Don't get me started, now. Damn, I picked a bad week to give up drinking.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 2:22:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ipschoser1:
There's a right way, a wrong way, and the British way. Wonder if it's made by Lucas Electric...



My thoughts exactly!!! >gg<
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 3:04:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LARRYG:
You mean the folks who make the refrigerators they keep their WARM beer in?

Do you also mean the folks with the 3 position switch: Dim, Flicker, and Off.



Yeah, that's the bloody same outfit. I'll never forget the old Brit bikes. Bing carbs, Lucas Electrics... My favorite is the ever leaking fuel petcock. The Brits used banjo fittings with gaskets and a stinking thru bolt. Contrast that with the Japanese method, a cast unit with a hose slipped over the end! Zero leaks!
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 3:08:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ipschoser1:

Originally Posted By LARRYG:
You mean the folks who make the refrigerators they keep their WARM beer in?

Do you also mean the folks with the 3 position switch: Dim, Flicker, and Off.



Yeah, that's the bloody same outfit. I'll never forget the old Brit bikes. Bing carbs, Lucas Electrics... My favorite is the ever leaking fuel petcock. The Brits used banjo fittings with gaskets and a stinking thru bolt. Contrast that with the Japanese method, a cast unit with a hose slipped over the end! Zero leaks!



Note---The Brits used Amal carbs. Bing is W. German...
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 3:14:32 PM EDT
I was thinking the old BSA and Triumph bikes my dad used to work on in our basement had Bing carbs. Maybe I'm getting them mixed up with the BMW's that were floating around, it's been a long time ago.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 3:15:32 PM EDT
Bow to Lucas, Prince of Darkness.......
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 5:20:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 5:52:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By marvl:

Wouldn't that also apply to Hardly Ableson?
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 6:10:25 PM EDT
It does look cool even if it doesn't work well.
(British, looks over utility?)
I would still buy it if they sold them in the States. I also like the looks of both the AUG and FAMAS.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 7:15:21 PM EDT
So what does this weopon look like??
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 8:02:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/4/2002 8:10:41 PM EDT by DScottHewitt]

Originally Posted By Kaliburz:
So what does this weopon look like??

















Scott

Link Posted: 7/4/2002 9:24:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tulsacmpshooter:
Check out the story about the running knife battle. It's the one titled six jailed.

The SA80 story kinda sounds like what the first runs of the AR were like in VietNam.



Umm... the SA80 was introduced in 1983, it will be 20 years old sometime next year. The AR didn't have many problems when used in small numbers by specalists from 61-65 in Malaya in Vietnam, when they tried to issue them by the thousands in 1965 the troubles began- and were fixed within a year. For the SA80 to be this bad for this long is something totally novel in the history of military firearms.

Especally since its REALLY only a bullpup version of a AR-18! But the devil is in the details I guess.

I bet the British will, once they find the money, buy G36's due to the fact that Royal Ordinance owns HK. However I do think that we should re-tender our 1992 offer to supply the UK with M16's at reduced or no cost. Maybe, just maybe, the cost difference between M16s and G36's will lure them to do otherwise.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 10:18:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ar10er:

P.S. The Aug is not much better.



Really ??

I haven't heard this but then I haven't read much about real world use of the AUG.

Anyone other than Austria use it ???
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 10:29:54 PM EDT
I thought Australia used it too.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 10:54:01 PM EDT
US Customs issued the AUG in the late 80's to their Special Agents. My friend in Southern Arizona got one of the first ones WITHOUT the 3 shot burst. 4 months later ,they took it back & retro fitted it . It was fun up 'til then. Now they issue M4 type weapons.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 12:37:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/5/2002 12:49:39 AM EDT by ArmdLbrl]

Originally Posted By byron2112:
I thought Australia used it too.



Austrailia, New Zealand, Papua New Guinae and the Republic of Ireland.

Never heard anything bad about a Austrian made AUG. But there have been gripes about the Austrailian made ones. They seem to revolve around Lithgows quality control.

Also, in East Timor they discovered the same problem that the British found in North Ireland with the SA80. Bulpups may be short- but on the other hand using them from the right side of the street is a bitch. As is going around corners to the right. The Armilite family can be fired from the left shoulder if you have to go around a right hand corner, totally impossible with a bullpup UNLESS that bullpup is the front-ejecting FN2000.

Apart from the reliability issues, the British and Austrailian SAS both think this completely undoes the theoretical advantage of having a longer barrel than the AR carbines. So they do not use the bulpups. And FN heard about this and that is why the FN2000 front ejects-although whether that front ejection system can handle getting gunked up in combat remains to be seen.

Edited to add that French elite forces don't seem to use the FAMAS either. Lately the favorite has been SIG 550's. The TAVOR was rejected by the IDF for a similar reason- if the author of www.isayeret.com is to be beleved. According to him the IDF specal forces units as a group rejected the TAVOR because of the cornering problem in MOUT- which anymore is all the IDF ever does!
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 2:48:52 AM EDT
What? Knocking Lucas Electric? Why I used to love Lucas Electric. Owned Three MGB's and couldn't wait to use them. Of course, I also owned a foreign auto parts store at the time, and keeping stocked up on Lucas parts also meant I got a lot of business from other Brit car owners. Guess you could say that the cost of those MGs was an advertising expense
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 5:59:41 AM EDT
The American way:
We build something: Does it work? yes, let's make a few then see how we can make it beter

The Russian way:
We build something: Does it work? yes, let's build a ton of them and never ever change the design

The British way:
We build something: Does it work? well, sorta. Lets see how we can make it more complicated.
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 8:48:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By shamayim:
What? Knocking Lucas Electric? Why I used to love Lucas Electric. Owned Three MGB's and couldn't wait to use them. Of course, I also owned a foreign auto parts store at the time, and keeping stocked up on Lucas parts also meant I got a lot of business from other Brit car owners. Guess you could say that the cost of those MGs was an advertising expense



Yer gonna get me going, fella. I owned one of those POS MGBs. I remember the 2 rinky-dink 6 volt batteries under the rear seat wired in series, with a positive ground no less.

There was a little switch in the windshield wiper bases that parked the blades once you turned them off. This broke on me, so the wipers would always run, and since this circuit did not go through the ignition switch, they would run with the engine turned off. Had to pull a fuse from the fuse block to kill them. Until I got them fixed, whenever it started to rain I would pull over and reinstall the fuse. When it quit I would pull over again and remove the fuse.

One night working 2nd shift I was fixing to leave work (and this cute gal had asked for a ride home too). I put the key in the ignition and turn. Nothing happens. Try again, same result. So I remove the key, and the guts of the ignition switch are stuck to the key.

The Lucas rocker switches would last on average 2 weeks before they would break. When I sold the car, in place of a normal rocker light switch I had a big-ass knife switch danging from the wiring behind the dash. At least it was reliable.

Once I had to have some body work done on the thing. When I got it back I discovered that the body shop had crossed the wiring 5 ways from hell. Turn on the lights and the windshield wipers would start. The wiper switch would turn on the cockpit map light. And so on. It was a royal mess.

I could go on, but you get the idea. Pisses me off just thinking about it. Damn, I picked a bad week to stop sniffing glue.
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