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Posted: 6/27/2002 5:24:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/27/2002 5:31:36 PM EDT by Greenhorn]
I was only able to shoot about 20 of each. Here are the pics. Red is 50 yards, blue is 100 yards. First picture is Wolf, second is Q3131A. All shots were made prone.





That red one in the white doesn't count, because I had one of those tiny muscle spasms right when I fired. I knew the shot sucked the second I fired.

I've always heard that Wolf sucks for accuracy, but they seem about the same. In fact the Wolf almost seems better.

I did notice that the Q3131A was louder than the Wolf, and the guy next to me said that the Q3131A had more flash.

Geez, I've already made four changes to this post. I keep thinking of things to add. Anyway, this is my 14.5" 1/9 .223 AK muzzle brake Bushmaster AR-15

Yet another addition: The blue (the shots at 100 yards) were all 10 shots per target, so as you can see a few missed. More missed with the Q3131A than the Wolf.
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 5:32:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/27/2002 5:34:54 PM EDT by Benjamin0001]
What kind of rifle??? What barrel Lenght??? What twist??? Are the upper and lower different or same manufacturer?? Is there a loose fit between upper and lower???

What was the size of that target??
What was the wind doing???
What was the temperature??

Please answer these questions so that we will get an idea of what is going on here..
Also did you fire all these from the same rifle at the very beginning you had shot or did you start taking measurements after you had fired say 100 rounds???

Benjamin

I am truly interested because I have never seen a comparison between what is supposed to be an extremely accurate ammo and one that is supposed to be a relative dog..

Where you using Irons or what kind of site??

It looks like the black area is 8 inches across is this accurate??

Link Posted: 6/27/2002 5:37:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/27/2002 5:38:34 PM EDT by Greenhorn]
What kind of rifle??? What barrel Lenght??? What twist??? Are the upper and lower different or same manufacturer?? Is there a loose fit between upper and lower???

OK, those questions are answered in my edited post above except for the last two: The gun was new when I got it, and I never changed parts, and there is a very slight shaking between upper and lower.

What was the size of that target??
What was the wind doing???
What was the temperature??


10.5" X 10.5"

No wind

About 70 degrees F, somewhat humid.

. . .did you fire all these from the same rifle at the very beginning you had shot or did you start taking measurements after you had fired say 100 rounds???

I fired 50 shots beforehand, but that was about a half hour before I shot these targets. The gun was clean before that.

Oh yeah, I used iron sights.
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 5:38:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/27/2002 5:52:22 PM EDT by Benjamin0001]
you should be able to pull sub 2.5" groups at 100 yards from Q3131A.


Also what was your fatigue level???


EDITED TO ADD: You keep practicing and you will be able to tighten those groups right up..

Also here some stuff: A Muzzle Break screws up accuracy somewhat but in this case you can't take it off because it is the muzzle break that is bringing the BBL length up to the 16" minimum...

Also try practicing this.. INHALE EXhALE <internal count> 1/1000 2/1000 Pull the trigger <---- what you are aiming for here is to have your gun fire between your heartbeats...

Link Posted: 6/27/2002 5:40:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/27/2002 5:42:09 PM EDT by Greenhorn]
Also to add that I don't know what the problem is because you should be able to pull sub 2.5" groups at 100 yards from Q3131A.

Dunno . . . I'm not an expert marksman or anything, so perhaps someone with more experience could have done better.

Also what was your fatigue level???

Rested.

It looks like the black area is 8 inches across is this accurate??

6 inches.
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 5:51:44 PM EDT
What I am getting at is this: When your groups tighten up sufficiently you should find that the Q3131A will produce a tighter group then the Wolf...
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 5:56:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/27/2002 5:58:34 PM EDT by Benjamin0001]
Also try using more colors. For instance

Take a 5 shot group and mark those one color at 50 or 100 yards
Then take another one.

That way you can see which flyers belong to which groups.. The reason why I am pointing this out is because there is a six shot group on the Q3131A pic that is just very good.

See how the Q3131A grouped more in a smaller area...



OK, those questions are answered in my edited post above except for the last two: The gun was new when I got it, and I never changed parts, and there is a very slight shaking between upper and lower.


If the shaking is just very slight it probably won't make a difference so don't worry about that.
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 6:03:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/27/2002 6:21:28 PM EDT by Benjamin0001]
You say the target is 10.5" square ...

At 100 yards that ain't too shabby at all really.. Especially from a 14.5" barrel with a muzzle break.


Also clean your rifle between changing ammunition... If you fired the Wolf First that will leave your rifle very dirty which will affect the accuracy of the Q3131A.


Link Posted: 7/1/2002 6:11:27 AM EDT
looks to me like Wolf isn't all that bad... no matter what rifle/upper/bbl/sling etc you were using...
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 6:35:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/1/2002 6:36:47 AM EDT by VA-gunnut]
I will add to this discussion. I don't think his proficiency with a rifle would make any difference at all. If he can only shoot the Q3131A at that group size then if the Wolf is inherently worse it should of been a larger group then the Q313A.

I did a test last weekend using a Bushmaster AK Shorty comparing 5 different loads. I didn't bother posting the results because I was using a cheap Red Dot scope and I found it difficult to acquire the 3" orange dots I was using as targets so I just picked a good hold on where I thought each dot was. I tried Wolf, SA, reloaded LC brass, XM193, and Malaysian ammo. The sad thing was that they all performed about the same. I was firing it from an uncomfortable position but still manage to keep a 5 shot group under 5" with all the tested ammo. I am planning on repeating the test when I get some different targets and firing from the prone position and with open sights. I will post the results when I am finished.

Wolf is not the most accurate round on the planet but it works just fine for most people who shoot it.
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 8:08:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 8:24:55 AM EDT
I've noticed about the same results with other ammo VS. wolf. Shooting from a VEPR II .223 (20 inch BBL) w/bypod (and, sometimes 4x scope):

With Wolf 62 GR, I get about 3" (10 shot) groups. With wolf 55 GR, I get around 4" ave.

With Federal American Eagle, and Whinchester white box 55gr, and Black Hills 55 gr SP ammo, I get about 5" ave.

Then, with Wincester 45 GR varmit loads (that cxp-1 3600 FPS stuff) I get about 1.5" groups, with my best 5-shot group being .46"!

The heavier Wolf and faster varmit stuff are by fire the most acurate rounds I've used. With the scoep I can get 2" group at 100 using the Wolf 62 GR if I take my time.

I have not used Q3131A yet. I would hope it would be more accurate than Wolf. . . .

-Justin

Link Posted: 7/1/2002 8:44:59 AM EDT
no offense but my m1 garands with m2 ball will out shoot that!
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 11:59:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By XxSLASHERxX:
no offense but my m1 garands with m2 ball will out shoot that!



Cut your garand barrel down to 14.5" like Greenhorn's AR is, then lets see how it shoots.
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 12:32:11 PM EDT
Q3131A averages 2.5 to 2.8" 100 meter 5 shot groups in my testing.
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 6:53:51 PM EDT
nope!......still should do better....at 50 and 100(the ar15)hold em hard!
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 6:58:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By XxSLASHERxX:
no offense but my m1 garands with m2 ball will out shoot that!


yeah, well my toaster makes toast better than your m1 garand.. eezzzzzzz.
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 9:15:18 PM EDT
Ummm, who cares if he cuts his M1 bbl down to 14.5"??? All that would happen is that he would lose velocity from the round. Accuracy at 100 yds. is not effected by bbl. length. PERIOD.
If you start talking about 600+ shots then the longer bbl. will walk all over shorty because of the drop in velocity, NOT the bbl length.
Try this...
Take your 21" MBR print a 10 round group @100yds.
Cut 2" off muzzle, recrown and fire another 10 round group.
Cut another 2" off muzzle recrown and repeat.
Your shot sizes will all be the same.
If you dont beleive me...YOU DO IT! Because I did when building my FAL carbine with 17" bbl.
If anything a shorter bbl. will be MORE accruate because the harmonics and bbl. whip will be reduced. Longer bbl more whip and chance of bullet deflection.
Of course YMMV so dont send me the bill for a new 20" bbl. after doing the same test.
KILO OUT
Link Posted: 7/1/2002 10:19:13 PM EDT
Hmm,
correct me if I am wrong,But,,, You get what you pay For...For plinking,,,what the hell use wolf,,,For some serious shooting,,,use match...[fire 'em' up]
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 7:01:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 19-kilo:
Ummm, who cares if he cuts his M1 bbl down to 14.5"??? All that would happen is that he would lose velocity from the round. Accuracy at 100 yds. is not effected by bbl. length. PERIOD. KILO OUT



You are right as far as raw, mechanical accuracy is concerned, but, there is one other thing that happens when you cut the barrel down on an M1, or M14, or AR15, you cut down the sight radius as well.

Now a short sight radius WILL affect accuracy by magnifying any sighting errors in sight picture and alignment.

The best iron service sights in the world (arguably found on the M1 Garand and M14) will still be less consistent in practical terms when the sight radius is shortened.

Of course a telescopic sight removes this disadvantage. Slap a telescopic sight on the M1 and the SAME scope on the M4 and conduct your shoot off.
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 7:15:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2002 7:49:19 AM EDT by brouhaha]

Originally Posted By 19-kilo:
Accuracy at 100 yds. is not effected by bbl. length. PERIOD.



So...

You're saying that a vised (to remove the sight radius as a variable) AR with a 3" barrel will be just as accurate as an AR with a 20" barrel?
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 7:43:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2002 7:54:43 AM EDT by Benjamin0001]
Brouhaha is right on this one,

There is point where you are going to get diminishing returns from cutting the barrell down. One effect not mentioned; it takes the bullet a longer time to stabilize outside the gun with a shorter brl length. Not to mention that if you are a civvy then you can't get it shorter then 16" anyways.

The same person would have to shoot the 16" and the 20" and the 24", to see this difference...

Greenhorns grouping are fine for what they are... I was merely responding to give some constructive criticism... After reading his post it just dawned on me that his groupings can be tighter... Hell all of our groupings can be tighter... And Greenhorn was shooting with what is not considered an accurate AR configuration by comparison to other AR's....

What can be said about Greenhorns results is this, the average shooter (of which I am in this category) can get these kind of results with Wolf and Q3131A and a short barreled, Muzzle Breaked AR.

Ben
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 10:39:50 AM EDT
Just by looking at the 50m group size, I will say the operator is more of an issue than the ammo. I don't think it's a good indicator of the true potential of the ammo.

I will say buy whatever you can afford and practise a lot.

Link Posted: 7/2/2002 12:51:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2002 1:01:14 PM EDT by Greenhorn]
I was kind of in a hurry, so I unfortunately didn't try too terribly hard to aim well. At the beginning of August I will finally be a member of the gun club I'm joining, and then I can shoot whenever I want. At that time I will test the Wolf, Q3131A, Remington and PMC, and will probably have a scope for the gun also.

A few days ago a guy at the gun club let me shoot his rifle in a contest. He had a Colt 26" AR-15 with a 26X scope. With that thing I got a .6" X 1.65" group at 200 yards. I wonder how my rifle would do at 200 yards with a good scope.
EDIT: I'm guessing that the group was wider vertically than horizontally was from bullet drop, due to slightly different powder loads. Am I right?
Link Posted: 7/2/2002 1:17:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By brouhaha:
So...

You're saying that a vised (to remove the sight radius as a variable) AR with a 3" barrel will be just as accurate as an AR with a 20" barrel?



Yes. A stabilized bullet is a stabilized bullet. The bullet cares not whether it came from a 16 inch or 16 foot barrel.
Link Posted: 8/2/2002 9:27:07 PM EDT
I have shot the Q3131a Fed AE 62gr .223 and I have also fired the wolf 62gr and I have used some of the Greek SS109 62gr and UMC 55gr on the same and on different days on 80 degree days and 90 degree days. From 0-200m my rifle, Colt SP1 20" with a 9x Simmons scope, much rather prefers the UMC ammo. It fires it more reliably and much more accurately. On one day that Deadeye47 and I were out at the range I put 10 rds in a 1" x-ring with the UMC 55gr at 100m and was holding 2 and 3" groups at 200m with the UMC 55gr. The Greek SS109 did not feed well or shoot accurately in my rifle. The Wolf and Fed AE 62gr ammo both were doing about 3" groups at 100m with some flyers every 5 to 10 shots that would be more like 5 to 7" groups, out at 200m the groups were about 5 to 7" with the flyers every 5 to 10 rds eing about 8 to 10". I hope to go out to the big range soon and try the Fed AE 62gr stuff at 300, 400, 600, 1000m because I feel that it will probably produce sub moa out at those distances, but for 200m and under I will stick with UMC 55gr. I have 2 good pics of two different 12" shoot n c targets my 13y/o son did last week with the Q3131a Fed AE 62gr at 200m and 77m. The x-ring is 3" and the whole black area is 12" and we zeroed it at 200m so the 77m shots are a bit high as we just pulled those off for fun at the end of the day and did not try to adjust the scope at all. Keep in mind this is my 13y/o who has only been shooting for a few months and only about 4 or 5 times at that but they are fairly impressive. The 200m has lots of pasters on it with them covering at least 1 round if not 2 in a lot of their cases. If someone who knows how to add pics to my post here please email me and I will email the pics to you so you can add them to this post. Thanks.
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