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Posted: 6/14/2002 5:46:52 AM EDT
I'm thinking I'd like to get a 16" AR to go with my 20". Of course I like the idea that a pre-ban has the collapsable stock, bayonette lug and flash hider.... but is it really worth it? Other than the cool factor and having something that Billy Klinton would hate, is there a benefit? Are the older guns made better? Do you ever fire the gun with the stock in the short position? Just looking for some opinions from both sides, $800 vs. $1500, it's worth asking! Thanks.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 5:55:53 AM EDT
The point of having the pre-ban is that you can have all the little evil features that you want on it. Collapsible stock, bayonet lug ect. Other than that people like it because it doesn't fall under the govt'laws. Pre-bans are not made any differently whatsoever. Your idea of it being worth the extra money is your decision on if you really need or want the evil features that it entitles. Also, if you plan on keeping it and selling it down the road it could be worth more than you paid for it.
Bill3508
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 5:59:46 AM EDT
Evil feature's are cool.
I wasn't completly satisfied until I had them.
But thats just me.
Otherwise you really don't need them.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 6:00:44 AM EDT
I see no practical benefit to buying preban. The only guys I know who use the collapsible stock are the swat dudes and that only because they adjust for the thickness of their vests. I have never wanted a flash hider as a Muzzle break is more effective and a bayonet, well thats just silly. It sure aint worth $500 for target shooting.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 6:04:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By shotar:
I see no practical benefit to buying preban. The only guys I know who use the collapsible stock are the swat dudes and that only because they adjust for the thickness of their vests.



I use my collapsible stock. And I have no vest.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 6:04:25 AM EDT
It's no big deal, but I kinda like the fact that my AR-15 is stamped AR-15. Also, a collapsable stock on a 16" makes it a nice somewhat smaller package, although some prefer a full stock.

Just my opinion.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 6:12:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2002 6:17:13 AM EDT by fastang50]
Good stuff guys. So far I'm hearing that they're made the same as todays guns but can have the three features that the post-ban's cant. Since I try not to ever get rid of a gun the increasing value thing isn't really a factor for me, I hope! Any other feedback, I'd love to hear.
Bug-
What benefit does the short stock give you? When/how do you use it? Is the collaposable stock any lighter than the solid one? Are they the same length? (when extended)
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 6:39:41 AM EDT
Having a preban allows you to spend 2-3 times as much for an AR, that functions no
better/different than a postban, for xtra features that really don't make a heap of difference so you can configure it to look cool!!


Here's Mine:


Link Posted: 6/14/2002 7:10:09 AM EDT
I have and have had quite a few pre-bans. Years before the "ban" the big thing was to pitch the "useless" flash hidder and install a muzzle break for IPSC 3 Gun, never did use the bayonet lug. So it depends what you want it for. If it is for a collection etc, then the "pre-ban" makes the difference. If it is for todays competition or self defense, the pre-ban is, IMHO, not worth the difference. I have a 6520 in my collection, but reciently sold a 6600 to buy a post-ban Compass Lake DCM model. The DCM model is perfectly fine without the pre-ban features. I had shot that 6600 for years in IPSC 3 Gun and had replaced it with a post-ban Bushmaster AK-Shorty AR for IPSC a couple of years back. So the 6600 was just sitting in a safe. I don't miss the 6600 (H-BAR) because for me the features were not that great, the 6520 (Govt Carbine or C-AR) has the feature of the collapsible stock which does have a lot in the looks dept.

Bill
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 7:38:44 AM EDT
My personal opinion is that the pre-ban is not worth the money.

If I had a pre-ban with a coll. stock, I would remove it an put a regular stock on it. My understanding is that the collapsible stock is useful for specific applications like SWAT teams charging into a house and searching for armed craack dealers in narrow corridors and small rooms. Maybe it's useful for a paratrooper as well? If you want a short overall rifle, get a Bushmaster M17S. 21" barrel in a rifle that's only 30" long - that's shorter than a 16" carbine. And, it'll cost you significantly less than even a post-ban.

I'm not sure what use I could ever even imagine for a bayonet lug. In all my years in the infantry, the bayonet was something you used for parades. The battle application of a bayonet in these days of modern warfare are so severly limited that it's hard to even imagine it.

The muzzle brakes today look exactly the same as an A2 flash supressor, and may even reduce what little recoil the AR had a bit - so that doesn't make any difference to me whatsoever.

That's my opinion (worth what you paid for it). If given the choice between a $800 postban and a $1200 preban, I would take the postban and buy $400 worth of mags, optics and ammunition - without even feeling like I was giving up anything at all.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 8:03:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
My personal opinion is that the pre-ban is not worth the money.

If I had a pre-ban with a coll. stock, I would remove it an put a regular stock on it. My understanding is that the collapsible stock is useful for specific applications like SWAT teams charging into a house and searching for armed craack dealers in narrow corridors and small rooms. Maybe it's useful for a paratrooper as well? If you want a short overall rifle, get a Bushmaster M17S. 21" barrel in a rifle that's only 30" long - that's shorter than a 16" carbine. And, it'll cost you significantly less than even a post-ban.

I'm not sure what use I could ever even imagine for a bayonet lug. In all my years in the infantry, the bayonet was something you used for parades. The battle application of a bayonet in these days of modern warfare are so severly limited that it's hard to even imagine it.

The muzzle brakes today look exactly the same as an A2 flash supressor, and may even reduce what little recoil the AR had a bit - so that doesn't make any difference to me whatsoever.

That's my opinion (worth what you paid for it). If given the choice between a $800 postban and a $1200 preban, I would take the postban and buy $400 worth of mags, optics and ammunition - without even feeling like I was giving up anything at all.



I agree with you DK. For what I paid for my preban, I could have gotten a new postban w/loads of cool stuff!
I had 2 postbans already, just wanted to have a preban, well, just to have one.
I doubt I'll get another. If I do, probably just a lower.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 8:20:12 AM EDT
DK-Prof
That makes alot of sense! I don't know what I'd do with a collaposable stock or bayo lug, the flash hider looks cool but the new compensators look very similar. Thanks for all the input guys!
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 8:47:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2002 8:56:25 AM EDT by new-arguy]
It all depends on what your rifle is for. If you think that there is the slightest chance that you might ever use it as anything other than a range gun, a flash hider is important. Not for looks, not for the fact that it is an evil feature. It is important because if you are using ammunition that is suited for defensive purposes, it will be loaded hot. Try shooting it in reducide light. You wont be able to see much else after the first shot. Especially if you are using carbine. The flash created is HUGE, and you WILL loose whatever night vision you had. In addition, each fireball created by every shot is telling everyone where you just shot from and giving them a great target indicator, and killing your vision, did I mention that?

Some muzzle brakes will redirect this flash, but none of them, repeat, none of them will reduce the flash at all. Not even those that look just like flash suppressors. Thats why they are called muzzle brakes and not flash suppressors.

Considering the above, and the fact that most times people need to use firearms occur in reduced light, you can see why some people spend the extra money. Is it worth it for a gun that you wouldnt use for defense. Heck no! But realize some folks like to have ARs as weapons, and even if they are never used as such, a AR witha flash hider is a better equipped weapon than one without.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 1:47:49 PM EDT
every gun owner shud have a pre-ban AR-15 !!!!!

i have one !! an old Colt SP-1 !!!

i have it because the enemys of my country consider it "evil", they also make laws to attempt to take it away from me, they are called senators & congressmen, they swore an oath to uphold the constitution of the United States of America, most of them have lied..!!! that is why the second amendment is there, to protect me from a tryannical gvmnt., it gives me "...the right to keep and bear arms...", my choice of arms is my "EVIL" pre-ban AR-15, it is my symbol of freedom, just as is my flag of The United States of America !!!!!!!!!!!!


Link Posted: 6/14/2002 2:12:26 PM EDT
If I had the chance to buy a pre-ban at a reasonable price I would. I would like to have one to put a suppressor on. As far as having a FS, collapsible stock and a bayo lug, I personally don't really care. It would be nice, but not worth the price difference.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 2:14:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2002 2:17:53 PM EDT by Citabria7GCBC]

Originally Posted By s0ulzer0:
Having a preban allows you to spend 2-3 times as much for an AR, that functions no
better/different than a postban, for xtra features that really don't make a heap of difference so you can configure it to look cool!!


Here's Mine:





i want a gun just like this one and i intend to buy one in november no matter what the cost. but i am looking for good deals.

i will keep my 20" bushy for training others and getting them into ARs but this one will be my pride and joy. I CANT WAIT!

i also want to get all the flash suppresors i can, then at night i will film the flash on all of them to see which is the coolest!
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 2:16:46 PM EDT
I don't need the preban features so I would never pay extra for it...can't remember the last time I needed full auto for clearing out my house upon my arrival
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 2:56:52 PM EDT
Remember you can always put an A1 stock on a post ban. The A1 stock is two positions shorter then with my bushy Fiberite "new-sytle" tele-which has six positions. The Bushy six positions seems like it might be slighly longer then an A2 in its fully opened position. In my opinion the new-style provides a better cheek weld then with the standard tele's. Being used to AK's i've always prefered a shorter stock.

I wanted another preban so i can build an "urban" rifle to serve 2nd amendment purpose. Unfortunately in central virginia there is no compeition shooting within a decent driving distance. My other preban is a Colt HBAR wich i have decided not to fool around with.

I agree that the bayo lug is useless. but having a threaded barrel is nice if you ever pay the $200 to the ATF and buy a registered silencer. Plus you could put in a Registered LL in a pre-ban that doesn't have the Sear block. Something i cant afford, but its nice to have that option down the road if i make more money.


If i were to buy a new Post-ban (like anyone cares) i'd get a Bushy Dissapator A3 with M4 profile to reduce barrel weight and replace the A2 stock with an A1.


lib who doesn't understand why major AR manufacuteres dont continue to produce/offer an A1 stock
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 2:59:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ECS:
I don't need the preban features so I would never pay extra for it...can't remember the last time I needed full auto for clearing out my house upon my arrival



What kind of statement is that? What does "full auto" have to do with pre-ban features?

And just for the record:

A) Multi-position collapsible stocks ARE useful when you would like to accomodate body armor, heavy winter clothing, various gear, etc. A collapsible stock alos makes the carbine more compact, easier to store, and easier to conceal.

B) Flash suppressors are EXTREMELY useful when shooting in low light. I'd much rather not be blinded by a huge ball of fire and then wait for my eyes to readjust to the low light.

Hopefully this issue will be moot in a couple of years. But until then, I'll continue to prefer pre-bans.

My money says that most of you talking about how unnecessary pre-ban features are will likely be adding them to your post-ban guns once the AW ban sunsets.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 3:02:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By new-arguy:
It all depends on what your rifle is for. If you think that there is the slightest chance that you might ever use it as anything other than a range gun, a flash hider is important. Not for looks, not for the fact that it is an evil feature. It is important because if you are using ammunition that is suited for defensive purposes, it will be loaded hot. Try shooting it in reducide light. You wont be able to see much else after the first shot. Especially if you are using carbine. The flash created is HUGE, and you WILL loose whatever night vision you had. In addition, each fireball created by every shot is telling everyone where you just shot from and giving them a great target indicator, and killing your vision, did I mention that?

Considering the above, and the fact that most times people need to use firearms occur in reduced light, you can see why some people spend the extra money. Is it worth it for a gun that you wouldnt use for defense. Heck no! But realize some folks like to have ARs as weapons, and even if they are never used as such, a AR witha flash hider is a better equipped weapon than one without.



New-arguy has it right. The flash hider is a very important option for a AR that might be used as a weapon some day. Remeber we are all the militia, you never know when you might be called for duty.

In an America that followed the 2nd admendment we would be able to add or subtract the evil feaures we wanted/needed based on the situation at hand. You may never need a flash hider and would prefer the muzzle brake. But it should be an option to take that muzzle brake off and add a flash hider if a situation arouse that called for such a change. Just a few thoughts. Think options.

The Azalin
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 3:13:21 PM EDT
Pre-bans are cool if you already own them.



Good luck on purchase.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 3:14:43 PM EDT
I have a preban. The additional evil features are cool, but not much more than that. I DO use the collapsible stock both to fit it in a shorter case and so my 8 year old son can shoot it. If you have or plan to have kids, I recommend a collapsable stock.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 3:24:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/14/2002 3:26:39 PM EDT by cluster]
I confess... my first AR was because of the "cool" factor..
My 2nd preban was because I realized some man named "Janet Reno" didnt want me to have one...
My 3rd Preban was cause ... well it simply looked lonely..

I have tried to buy a post-ban and use the extra $$ to spice it up... but I just cant.. it looks naked,hurt,cripled..sick, pale.... Icky.. no sir ,,, no post-ban for me.. thank you

The good part is its ultimatly your choice...

Funny thing is.. I wouldnt be caught dead forking over cash for a post-ban.. but I would to my best to talk you into getting it..

BTW...

Hell you know what NONE of my prebans have ever been dressed in other than A2 Config.. its just nice to know I CAN!!!


edited to add....

and knowing you can is really the only benefits of a pre-ban...

and that good enough for me..

Link Posted: 6/14/2002 3:46:10 PM EDT
I currently have 2 pre's, 2 post, and 1 LEO. I have more money in one of the posts than any other. It's about what you want, nothing more. I gave 1200.00 bones for my Bushy 14.5 A-2. I have 1000.00 in my pre ban Oly with new M-4 upper. Then I put 65.00 in it for Kurt to shorten it to overall 16.1 inches with the flash hider. Look around and you can find complete pre-bans for 1000.00 to 1200.00 fairly regularly. I've seen 3 factory pre ban Colts for 1000.00 to 1300.00 in the last 4 months. Have your cake and eat it too!
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 7:38:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ECS:
I don't need the preban features so I would never pay extra for it...can't remember the last time I needed full auto for clearing out my house upon my arrival

Preban does not necessarily equal full auto! Sheesh. In fact, if you have a registered sear, you can put it in a postban.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 7:43:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By shotar:
I see no practical benefit to buying preban. The only guys I know who use the collapsible stock are the swat dudes and that only because they adjust for the thickness of their vests. I have never wanted a flash hider as a Muzzle break is more effective and a bayonet, well thats just silly. It sure aint worth $500 for target shooting.

First, it's a muzzle BRAKE, not break. Second, if you spend the money for Gen II night vision, you sure as hell don't want that huge flash ruining your equipment.
Link Posted: 6/14/2002 9:08:31 PM EDT
Four pre-bans in my collection. I consider them as an investment that I can use at the same time. Kind of difficult to do that with other investments other than autos, which I have two in the collection, 67 Mustang GT fastback, 79 Mercury Capri street/strip car. We all know that the AW ban will probably NOT sunset in 2004 like we all hope it will, if you feel the need to own a pre-ban, I say go for it, will probably hold its value better than any mutual fund or money market, they have done better that my 401K did last year!
Link Posted: 6/15/2002 7:04:15 PM EDT
i always felt like a second class AR owner till i had a pre ban. now im gettin another.
Link Posted: 6/15/2002 7:26:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/15/2002 7:29:59 PM EDT by Corey]
I regularly shoot my preban with the collapsable stock in it's closed position for standing CQB type stuff. It's where I'd have the stock set if I ever need to move in a hostile environment.

FWIW, I pull the stock out of my shoulder pocket and put it right on top of my -- er, whatever the hell that bone is right above your rib cage -- and under the right side of my chin. That way everything is lined up as straight as possible. In close and tight, perfect for moving through a house. Works well for me. I believe it's also being used more by mil, swat, etc.

In the prone, I just kick the stock out one or two clicks.

And the FS makes shooting much more pleasant. I have a postban and much prefer the FS on the preban.

This whole ban is such a bunch of BS. It's not about making anything "safer," it's about slowly but surely disarming our grandchildren.


EIDTED for dumb typos.
Link Posted: 6/15/2002 7:38:29 PM EDT
It's an Ego thing, and not worth the extra bucks.. I have two..
Link Posted: 6/15/2002 7:38:52 PM EDT
I think that it is nice to be able to do exactly what you want to the rifle(with in NFA rules of course). I like the idea of a collapseable stock, bayonet lug, and flash hider. I like the fact that others do not like these features. I think that it is sweet that my Colt was manufactured in 1968, and that it looks like it is in excellent condition.
Link Posted: 6/15/2002 8:10:00 PM EDT
You have been given good advice in the posts above.

Bottom line:

Any AR-15 nut should have at least one cool looking M-4 type pre-ban. Looks cool and is fun to shoot and will keep its value unless they repeal the AWB.

The practical use is limited and not much worth the additional money. (exception - see the above discussion on flash hiders)

A 20" barrel is more accurate and has higher muzzle velocity than the 14" and 16". If you really needed an AR-15 for serious business, the 20" would most likely be the better weapon. The shorter barrels with a collapsible stock has a use for some special operations but if you were defending your family in a SHTF scenario the standard A2 stock with a 20" barrel is a great weapon up to 300yds.

If the SHTF ever happens you can put together any configuration you want and most likely not have to worry about the ATF arresting you.



Link Posted: 6/15/2002 8:20:36 PM EDT
Every pre-ban in circulation is a middle finger raised high in salute to the fine folks who brought us the '94 ban.

Pre-bans make the baby Schumer cry!
Link Posted: 6/15/2002 8:46:14 PM EDT
Another pre ban vs post ban thread. Aside from the functionality of the pre ban features, pre bans are better because they are cooler and everyone knows it. It's big d*ck vs little d*ck. People say size doesn't matter but we all know that it does.
Link Posted: 6/15/2002 9:33:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Flash66:
...If the SHTF ever happens you can put together any configuration you want and most likely not have to worry about the ATF arresting you.



Ha-Ha! Ain't that the truth!
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 10:21:55 AM EDT
Collaspable stock allows you to adjust length of pull for heavy winter clothing or body armor. Also allows you to fit the rifle in smaller spaces than a full stock model. Comes in handy in a small vehicle.

Flash suppressor protects your night vision and keeps others from spoting you becuase of your muzzle flash.

Of course if your rifle is a target gun it doesnt much matter. But some of us acctually use our guns as the weapons they were meant to be.
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 9:19:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mattsd:
i always felt like a second class AR owner till i had a pre ban. now im gettin another.



I, too, was a second class AR owner till I had my pre ban.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 12:18:55 PM EDT
I can see the advantages of the collapsing stock and the flashhider. However, if the AW ban is rolled back, pre-bans won't be much of an investment.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 12:35:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DonS:
However, if the AW ban is rolled back,



You might as well bet on sound beating light.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 1:38:20 PM EDT
Even with the money I stand to lose in value of my prebans if the AW ban sunsets, I hope you are right, I hope it does sunset. I didnt buy the prebans I have for any other reason other than their function as a weapon. A weapon with a flash suppressor is better equipped than one without. Period... For that benefit, I pay what is required. I am not a rich man, but I will pay what is required.

As to the SHTF, I would like to see one of you try and remove a permanently attatched muzzle brake... or thread the end of your crowned barrel and install a flash suppressor at a time when you need your gun right now. Not that it cant be done, but how many of you know how to do it? And even if you know how, have the tools to do it? Probably very, very few. And even if you knew how and had the tools to do it, is that what you want to spend your time doing when the SHTF or what-have-you? It is not an quick job for the best gunsmiths.

Truth is you can look around and get a preban for just a few hundred dollars more than a post ban. Maybe it wont be a collectable model, but it will shoot well. I pieced the below gun together (minus light and sight) from used parts and pieces for about $1100. It is an Oly lower, upper and every other piece is Colt. A gun in post ban with the same configuration would have run me about $850 new. Was $250 more worth the time and hassle saved above. To me it was. Look around, be patient, and you will find good deals on prebans. They are out there. Many right here in the Equipment Exchange.

Link Posted: 6/17/2002 2:55:37 PM EDT
I've got two postbans that I'm very happy with, but ....

I want to use collapsible stocks, which is a NO GO.

I'd like to get the Precision Reflex front sight setup up, but I have perm-installed muzzle brakes. Wouldn't have this problem with a preban and screwed on ONLY muzzle device.


Chris
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